[RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie
I live in a TVA area where there is a Feed In Tariff. Everything that is generated by the PV array feeds into the grid through a Generation Meter that ties-in ahead of the house meter. I have started getting calls from customers who hate having a solar array that does not generate when the grid is down but the sun is shining, but who also want to get the $.12 premium when the grid is connected. We have lots of systems with SMA Sunnyboy inverters, but more with Enphase micro-inverters. Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, what you found to be the best solution for this type of installation? W.C. (Bill) Turberville P.E. President ECE Solar Electrical Contracting Enterprises LLC 3080 Stage Post Road Suite 107 Bartlett, TN 38133 901-348-9230 ext 101 phone 901-348-2192 fax 901-289-6346 cell billt...@ece-llc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 032611-320 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie
Hi bill Just how often is your grid down? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.com wrote: I live in a TVA area where there is a Feed In Tariff. Everything that is generated by the PV array feeds into the grid through a Generation Meter that ties-in ahead of the house meter. I have started getting calls from customers who hate having a solar array that does not generate when the grid is down but the sun is shining, but who also want to get the $.12 premium when the grid is connected. We have lots of systems with SMA Sunnyboy inverters, but more with Enphase micro-inverters. Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, what you found to be the best solution for this type of installation? W.C. (Bill) Turberville P.E. President ECE Solar Electrical Contracting Enterprises LLC 3080 Stage Post Road Suite 107 Bartlett, TN 38133 901-348-9230 ext 101 phone 901-348-2192 fax 901-289-6346 cell billt...@ece-llc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 032611-320 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie
Not very often, and usually for no more than an hour or two, although it has been down as long as 5 days, either during tornado season, or ice taking down power lines. What these people are looking for is Just In Case a big event happens. They do not want to have all those panels just sitting there. *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jay Peltz *Sent:* Friday, April 26, 2013 12:25 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie Hi bill Just how often is your grid down? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.com wrote: I live in a TVA area where there is a Feed In Tariff. Everything that is generated by the PV array feeds into the grid through a Generation Meter that ties-in ahead of the house meter. I have started getting calls from customers who hate having a solar array that does not generate when the grid is down but the sun is shining, but who also want to get the $.12 premium when the grid is connected. We have lots of systems with SMA Sunnyboy inverters, but more with Enphase micro-inverters. Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, what you found to be the best solution for this type of installation? W.C. (Bill) Turberville P.E. President ECE Solar Electrical Contracting Enterprises LLC 3080 Stage Post Road Suite 107 Bartlett, TN 38133 901-348-9230 ext 101 phone 901-348-2192 fax 901-289-6346 cell billt...@ece-llc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 032611-320 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie
For the price that you would spend on batteries and a Sunny Island system, you could buy and install a generator. I would go that route. On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.comwrote: Not very often, and usually for no more than an hour or two, although it has been down as long as 5 days, either during tornado season, or ice taking down power lines. What these people are looking for is Just In Case a big event happens. They do not want to have all those panels just sitting there. *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jay Peltz *Sent:* Friday, April 26, 2013 12:25 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie Hi bill Just how often is your grid down? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.com wrote: I live in a TVA area where there is a Feed In Tariff. Everything that is generated by the PV array feeds into the grid through a Generation Meter that ties-in ahead of the house meter. I have started getting calls from customers who hate having a solar array that does not generate when the grid is down but the sun is shining, but who also want to get the $.12 premium when the grid is connected. We have lots of systems with SMA Sunnyboy inverters, but more with Enphase micro-inverters. Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, what you found to be the best solution for this type of installation? W.C. (Bill) Turberville P.E. President ECE Solar Electrical Contracting Enterprises LLC 3080 Stage Post Road Suite 107 Bartlett, TN 38133 901-348-9230 ext 101 phone 901-348-2192 fax 901-289-6346 cell billt...@ece-llc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 032611-320 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie
I have done that with several customers, but those generators were natural gas, and their concern is if we have an earth quake and lose natural gas, since we are on the New Madrid fault. *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris Mason *Sent:* Friday, April 26, 2013 1:36 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie For the price that you would spend on batteries and a Sunny Island system, you could buy and install a generator. I would go that route. On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.com wrote: Not very often, and usually for no more than an hour or two, although it has been down as long as 5 days, either during tornado season, or ice taking down power lines. What these people are looking for is Just In Case a big event happens. They do not want to have all those panels just sitting there. *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jay Peltz *Sent:* Friday, April 26, 2013 12:25 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie Hi bill Just how often is your grid down? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.com wrote: I live in a TVA area where there is a Feed In Tariff. Everything that is generated by the PV array feeds into the grid through a Generation Meter that ties-in ahead of the house meter. I have started getting calls from customers who hate having a solar array that does not generate when the grid is down but the sun is shining, but who also want to get the $.12 premium when the grid is connected. We have lots of systems with SMA Sunnyboy inverters, but more with Enphase micro-inverters. Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, what you found to be the best solution for this type of installation? W.C. (Bill) Turberville P.E. President ECE Solar Electrical Contracting Enterprises LLC 3080 Stage Post Road Suite 107 Bartlett, TN 38133 901-348-9230 ext 101 phone 901-348-2192 fax 901-289-6346 cell billt...@ece-llc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 032611-320 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie
The Generac Guardian are field convertible to propane. I imagine you can install a propane tank as we do here. On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.comwrote: I have done that with several customers, but those generators were natural gas, and their concern is if we have an earth quake and lose natural gas, since we are on the New Madrid fault. *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris Mason *Sent:* Friday, April 26, 2013 1:36 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie For the price that you would spend on batteries and a Sunny Island system, you could buy and install a generator. I would go that route. On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.com wrote: Not very often, and usually for no more than an hour or two, although it has been down as long as 5 days, either during tornado season, or ice taking down power lines. What these people are looking for is Just In Case a big event happens. They do not want to have all those panels just sitting there. *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jay Peltz *Sent:* Friday, April 26, 2013 12:25 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie Hi bill Just how often is your grid down? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.com wrote: I live in a TVA area where there is a Feed In Tariff. Everything that is generated by the PV array feeds into the grid through a Generation Meter that ties-in ahead of the house meter. I have started getting calls from customers who hate having a solar array that does not generate when the grid is down but the sun is shining, but who also want to get the $.12 premium when the grid is connected. We have lots of systems with SMA Sunnyboy inverters, but more with Enphase micro-inverters. Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, what you found to be the best solution for this type of installation? W.C. (Bill) Turberville P.E. President ECE Solar Electrical Contracting Enterprises LLC 3080 Stage Post Road Suite 107 Bartlett, TN 38133 901-348-9230 ext 101 phone 901-348-2192 fax 901-289-6346 cell billt...@ece-llc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 032611-320 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie
our power outages generally come from bad weather too... and of course when the weather is bad the pv does next to nothing. so for emergency backup, i recommend a generator. todd On Friday, April 26, 2013 10:33am, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.com said: Not very often, and usually for no more than an hour or two, although it has been down as long as 5 days, either during tornado season, or ice taking down power lines. What these people are looking for is Just In Case a big event happens. They do not want to have all those panels just sitting there. From: [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Peltz Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 12:25 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie Hi bill Just how often is your grid down? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Bill Turberville [mailto:billt...@ece-llc.com] billt...@ece-llc.com wrote: I live in a TVA area where there is a Feed In Tariff. Everything that is generated by the PV array feeds into the grid through a Generation Meter that ties-in ahead of the house meter. I have started getting calls from customers who hate having a solar array that does not generate when the grid is down but the sun is shining, but who also want to get the $.12 premium when the grid is connected. We have lots of systems with SMA Sunnyboy inverters, but more with Enphase micro-inverters. Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, what you found to be the best solution for this type of installation? W.C. (Bill) Turberville P.E. President ECE Solar Electrical Contracting Enterprises LLC 3080 Stage Post Road Suite 107 Bartlett, TN 38133 901-348-9230 ext 101 phone 901-348-2192 fax 901-289-6346 cell [mailto:billt...@ece-llc.com] billt...@ece-llc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 032611-320 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: [mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org] RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie
I have a crazy...I mean creative customer who wants a BB system so that he can run off-grid during peak and partial-peak rate hours: 1 to 7pm is peak, 7 to 9pm is partial from PGE. He got this great idea from a tech at a reputable power optimizer manufacturer, whom I will not name here, who said, you've got the batteries just sitting there; why not put them to work? Initially he wanted his PV to operate while the sun is shining and the grid is down...and his batteries to supply power when the sun and grid is down. But now he wants his back-up system to do it all. We've touched on all the obvious points: - Peak buying is also peak selling - Physics and efficiency losses determine that the energy he saves will never equal the energy he can put back into his system. - Decreased battery life due to increased cycling - Costs for batts and special inverters versus generator What is the definitive argument against BB in general and this peak shaving idea in particular? Thanks pros. Eric SunHarvest - Original Message - From: toddc...@finestplanet.com To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie our power outages generally come from bad weather too... and of course when the weather is bad the pv does next to nothing. so for emergency backup, i recommend a generator. todd On Friday, April 26, 2013 10:33am, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.com said: Not very often, and usually for no more than an hour or two, although it has been down as long as 5 days, either during tornado season, or ice taking down power lines. What these people are looking for is Just In Case a big event happens. They do not want to have all those panels just sitting there. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Peltz Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 12:25 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie Hi bill Just how often is your grid down? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.com wrote: I live in a TVA area where there is a Feed In Tariff. Everything that is generated by the PV array feeds into the grid through a Generation Meter that ties-in ahead of the house meter. I have started getting calls from customers who hate having a solar array that does not generate when the grid is down but the sun is shining, but who also want to get the $.12 premium when the grid is connected. We have lots of systems with SMA Sunnyboy inverters, but more with Enphase micro-inverters. Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, what you found to be the best solution for this type of installation? W.C. (Bill) Turberville P.E. President ECE Solar Electrical Contracting Enterprises LLC 3080 Stage Post Road Suite 107 Bartlett, TN 38133 901-348-9230 ext 101 phone 901-348-2192 fax 901-289-6346 cell billt...@ece-llc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 032611-320 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie
Batteries actually do better if they are cycled than if they just sit there. He may actually extend his battery life. What kind of batteries is he using? *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *SunHarvest *Sent:* Friday, April 26, 2013 2:25 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie I have a crazy...I mean *creative* customer who wants a BB system so that he can run off-grid during peak and partial-peak rate hours: 1 to 7pm is peak, 7 to 9pm is partial from PGE. He got this great idea from a tech at a reputable power optimizer manufacturer, whom I will not name here, who said, you've got the batteries just sitting there; why not put them to work? Initially he wanted his PV to operate while the sun is shining and the grid is down...and his batteries to supply power when the sun *and* grid is down. But now he wants his back-up system to do it all. We've touched on all the obvious points: - Peak buying is also peak selling - Physics and efficiency losses determine that the energy he saves will never equal the energy he can put back into his system. - Decreased battery life due to increased cycling - Costs for batts and special inverters versus generator What is the *definitive* argument against BB in general and this peak shaving idea in particular? Thanks pros. Eric SunHarvest - Original Message - *From:* toddc...@finestplanet.com *To:* RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org *Sent:* Friday, April 26, 2013 11:57 AM *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie our power outages generally come from bad weather too... and of course when the weather is bad the pv does next to nothing. so for emergency backup, i recommend a generator. todd On Friday, April 26, 2013 10:33am, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.com said: Not very often, and usually for no more than an hour or two, although it has been down as long as 5 days, either during tornado season, or ice taking down power lines. What these people are looking for is Just In Case a big event happens. They do not want to have all those panels just sitting there. *From:* *re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org*re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org[mailto: *re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org*re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jay Peltz *Sent:* Friday, April 26, 2013 12:25 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie Hi bill Just how often is your grid down? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Bill Turberville *billt...@ece-llc.com*billt...@ece-llc.com wrote: I live in a TVA area where there is a Feed In Tariff. Everything that is generated by the PV array feeds into the grid through a Generation Meter that ties-in ahead of the house meter. I have started getting calls from customers who hate having a solar array that does not generate when the grid is down but the sun is shining, but who also want to get the $.12 premium when the grid is connected. We have lots of systems with SMA Sunnyboy inverters, but more with Enphase micro-inverters. Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, what you found to be the best solution for this type of installation? W.C. (Bill) Turberville P.E. President ECE Solar Electrical Contracting Enterprises LLC 3080 Stage Post Road Suite 107 Bartlett, TN 38133 901-348-9230 ext 101 phone 901-348-2192 fax 901-289-6346 cell *billt...@ece-llc.com* billt...@ece-llc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 032611-320 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: *RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org*RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: *http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org*http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: * http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org*http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: *www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm*http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: *www.members.re-wrenches.org* http://www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie
Should've mentioned that, sealed AGM. And his loads, the ones he wants to run on his CLP, are such that the batts would be cycling daily at least, with a D.O.D. yet to be determined (we're trying to stay above 49%). Eric - Original Message - From: Bill Turberville To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 12:30 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie Batteries actually do better if they are cycled than if they just sit there. He may actually extend his battery life. What kind of batteries is he using? From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of SunHarvest Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 2:25 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie I have a crazy...I mean creative customer who wants a BB system so that he can run off-grid during peak and partial-peak rate hours: 1 to 7pm is peak, 7 to 9pm is partial from PGE. He got this great idea from a tech at a reputable power optimizer manufacturer, whom I will not name here, who said, you've got the batteries just sitting there; why not put them to work? Initially he wanted his PV to operate while the sun is shining and the grid is down...and his batteries to supply power when the sun and grid is down. But now he wants his back-up system to do it all. We've touched on all the obvious points: - Peak buying is also peak selling - Physics and efficiency losses determine that the energy he saves will never equal the energy he can put back into his system. - Decreased battery life due to increased cycling - Costs for batts and special inverters versus generator What is the definitive argument against BB in general and this peak shaving idea in particular? Thanks pros. Eric SunHarvest - Original Message - From: toddc...@finestplanet.com To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie our power outages generally come from bad weather too... and of course when the weather is bad the pv does next to nothing. so for emergency backup, i recommend a generator. todd On Friday, April 26, 2013 10:33am, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.com said: Not very often, and usually for no more than an hour or two, although it has been down as long as 5 days, either during tornado season, or ice taking down power lines. What these people are looking for is Just In Case a big event happens. They do not want to have all those panels just sitting there. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Peltz Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 12:25 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie Hi bill Just how often is your grid down? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.com wrote: I live in a TVA area where there is a Feed In Tariff. Everything that is generated by the PV array feeds into the grid through a Generation Meter that ties-in ahead of the house meter. I have started getting calls from customers who hate having a solar array that does not generate when the grid is down but the sun is shining, but who also want to get the $.12 premium when the grid is connected. We have lots of systems with SMA Sunnyboy inverters, but more with Enphase micro-inverters. Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, what you found to be the best solution for this type of installation? W.C. (Bill) Turberville P.E. President ECE Solar Electrical Contracting Enterprises LLC 3080 Stage Post Road Suite 107 Bartlett, TN 38133 901-348-9230 ext 101 phone 901-348-2192 fax 901-289-6346 cell billt...@ece-llc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 032611-320 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie
this is an incorrect myth. todd On Friday, April 26, 2013 12:30pm, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.com said: Batteries actually do better if they are cycled than if they just sit there. He may actually extend his battery life. What kind of batteries is he using? From: [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of SunHarvest Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 2:25 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie I have a crazy...I mean creative customer who wants a BB system so that he can run off-grid during peak and partial-peak rate hours: 1 to 7pm is peak, 7 to 9pm is partial from PGE. He got this great idea from a tech at a reputable power optimizer manufacturer, whom I will not name here, who said, you've got the batteries just sitting there; why not put them to work? Initially he wanted his PV to operate while the sun is shining and the grid is down...and his batteries to supply power when the sun and grid is down. But now he wants his back-up system to do it all. We've touched on all the obvious points: - Peak buying is also peak selling - Physics and efficiency losses determine that the energy he saves will never equal the energy he can put back into his system. - Decreased battery life due to increased cycling - Costs for batts and special inverters versus generator What is the definitive argument against BB in general and this peak shaving idea in particular? Thanks pros. Eric SunHarvest - Original Message - From: [mailto:toddc...@finestplanet.com] toddc...@finestplanet.com To: [mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org] RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie our power outages generally come from bad weather too... and of course when the weather is bad the pv does next to nothing. so for emergency backup, i recommend a generator. todd On Friday, April 26, 2013 10:33am, Bill Turberville [mailto:billt...@ece-llc.com] billt...@ece-llc.com said: Not very often, and usually for no more than an hour or two, although it has been down as long as 5 days, either during tornado season, or ice taking down power lines. What these people are looking for is Just In Case a big event happens. They do not want to have all those panels just sitting there. From: [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Peltz Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 12:25 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie Hi bill Just how often is your grid down? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Bill Turberville [mailto:billt...@ece-llc.com] billt...@ece-llc.com wrote: I live in a TVA area where there is a Feed In Tariff. Everything that is generated by the PV array feeds into the grid through a Generation Meter that ties-in ahead of the house meter. I have started getting calls from customers who hate having a solar array that does not generate when the grid is down but the sun is shining, but who also want to get the $.12 premium when the grid is connected. We have lots of systems with SMA Sunnyboy inverters, but more with Enphase micro-inverters. Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, what you found to be the best solution for this type of installation? W.C. (Bill) Turberville P.E. President ECE Solar Electrical Contracting Enterprises LLC 3080 Stage Post Road Suite 107 Bartlett, TN 38133 901-348-9230 ext 101 phone 901-348-2192 fax 901-289-6346 cell [mailto:billt...@ece-llc.com] billt...@ece-llc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 032611-320 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: [mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org] RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: [http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm] www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: [http://www.members.re-wrenches.org] www.members.re-wrenches.org Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: [mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org] RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: [http://lists.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie
I agree that this is an incorrect myth, when referring to lead-acid batteries. The fewer times you cycle them, the longer they last. At this time, we don't have any other options in the real world, though. Dan Fink, Executive Director; Otherpower Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers 970.672.4342 On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 2:23 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: this is an incorrect myth. todd On Friday, April 26, 2013 12:30pm, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.com said: Batteries actually do better if they are cycled than if they just sit there. He may actually extend his battery life. What kind of batteries is he using? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie
my biggest issue with bbgt systems is the inefficiency. my 4.3 kW (stc) array typically sells 2.8 kW. 5 years of tracking dc input versus ac output shows the obfx inverter runs around 87% efficiency. add battery maintenance and the extra wiring to split off backed up loads and the economics just dont work out. then, if you make this scenario even worse by adding battery cycling inefficiency and more frequent replacement... (to supposedly make money??) it is a no-brainer your customers creative idea is actually a hair brained scheme which will result in a net loss and increased consumption of resources. his money would be better spent on upgrading to more efficient appliances, improvements to his building thermal performance and conservation. i would not do this for a customer... and if they insisted, i'd let them hire someone else to implement these stupid (greenwashing) ideas for him. remember, you are the expert and your integrity and ethics are on the line here. todd On Friday, April 26, 2013 12:24pm, SunHarvest e...@harvesthesun.com said: I have a crazy...I mean creative customer who wants a BB system so that he can run off-grid during peak and partial-peak rate hours: 1 to 7pm is peak, 7 to 9pm is partial from PGE. He got this great idea from a tech at a reputable power optimizer manufacturer, whom I will not name here, who said, you've got the batteries just sitting there; why not put them to work? Initially he wanted his PV to operate while the sun is shining and the grid is down...and his batteries to supply power when the sun and grid is down. But now he wants his back-up system to do it all. We've touched on all the obvious points: - Peak buying is also peak selling - Physics and efficiency losses determine that the energy he saves will never equal the energy he can put back into his system. - Decreased battery life due to increased cycling - Costs for batts and special inverters versus generator What is the definitive argument against BB in general and this peak shaving idea in particular? Thanks pros. Eric SunHarvest - Original Message - From: [mailto:toddc...@finestplanet.com] toddc...@finestplanet.com To: [mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org] RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 11:57AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] BatteryBack-up and Grid Tie ourpower outages generally come from bad weather too... and of course when theweather is bad the pv does next to nothing. so for emergency backup, i recommend a generator. todd OnFriday, April 26, 2013 10:33am, Bill Turberville [mailto:billt...@ece-llc.com] billt...@ece-llc.comsaid: Not very often, and usually forno more than an hour or two, although it has been down as long as 5 days,either during tornado season, or ice taking down power lines. What thesepeople are looking for is Just In Case a big event happens. They do notwant to have all those panels just sitting there. From: [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Jay Peltz Sent: Friday,April 26, 2013 12:25 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up andGrid Tie Hi bill Just how often is your grid down? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Bill Turberville [mailto:billt...@ece-llc.com] billt...@ece-llc.comwrote: I live in a TVA area where there is a Feed In Tariff. Everything that is generated by the PV array feeds into the grid through a Generation Meter that ties-in ahead of the house meter. I have started getting calls from customers who hate having a solar array that does not generate when the grid is down but the sun is shining, but who also want to get the $.12 premium when the grid is connected. We have lots of systems with SMA Sunnyboy inverters, but more with Enphase micro-inverters. Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, what you found to be the best solution for this type of installation? W.C. (Bill) Turberville P.E. President ECE Solar Electrical Contracting Enterprises LLC 3080 Stage Post Road Suite 107 Bartlett, TN 38133 901-348-9230 ext 101 phone 901-348-2192 fax 901-289-6346 cell [mailto:billt...@ece-llc.com] billt...@ece-llc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 032611-320 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: [mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org] RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org] http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: [http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie
Chris, et al: The EcoGen (6kw) was designed by Generac the Propane Council from the ground up to run on LP, and to be used in an off-grid application. I've owned one for about 3 years now and I am very pleased with it. My home PV system is a 5.5 kW array into a Schneider XW system that is grid-tied battery-backup, with generator assist. Our grid in Irving TX is very reliable, with few outages. I like the security of knowing I will have power if/when an outage does occur. It's hard to but a price on that when one does a cost/benefit analysis. Most, if not all, of the customers I've had wanting GTBB systems are motivated in the same way. Regards, Gary Willett Icarus Solar On 4/26/13 1:41 PM, Chris Mason wrote: The Generac Guardian are fieldconvertibleto propane. I imagine you can install a propane tank as we do here. On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.com wrote: I have done that with several customers, but those generators were natural gas, and their concern is if we have an earth quake and lose natural gas, since we are on the New Madrid fault. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 1:36 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie For the price that you would spend on batteries and a Sunny Island system, you could buy and install a generator. I would go that route. On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.com wrote: Not very often, and usually for no more than an hour or two, although it has been down as long as 5 days, either during tornado season, or ice taking down power lines. What these people are looking for is Just In Case a big event happens. They do not want to have all those panels just sitting there. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Peltz Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 12:25 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie Hi bill Just how often is your grid down? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.com wrote
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie
The Ecogen is an excellent unit, but it is not cheap. For the price of the Ecogen, you can get a 20KW Guardian packaged unit with ATS and not buy all the batteries and inverters and switchgear. If you only get very rare outages, how does it make sense? On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 5:14 PM, Gary Willett g...@icarussolarservices.comwrote: Chris, et al: The EcoGen (6kw) was designed by Generac the Propane Council from the ground up to run on LP, and to be used in an off-grid application. I've owned one for about 3 years now and I am very pleased with it. My home PV system is a 5.5 kW array into a Schneider XW system that is grid-tied battery-backup, with generator assist. Our grid in Irving TX is very reliable, with few outages. I like the security of knowing I will have power if/when an outage does occur. It's hard to but a price on that when one does a cost/benefit analysis. Most, if not all, of the customers I've had wanting GTBB systems are motivated in the same way. Regards, Gary Willett Icarus Solar On 4/26/13 1:41 PM, Chris Mason wrote: The Generac Guardian are field convertible to propane. I imagine you can install a propane tank as we do here. On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.comwrote: I have done that with several customers, but those generators were natural gas, and their concern is if we have an earth quake and lose natural gas, since we are on the New Madrid fault. *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris Mason *Sent:* Friday, April 26, 2013 1:36 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie For the price that you would spend on batteries and a Sunny Island system, you could buy and install a generator. I would go that route. On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.com wrote: Not very often, and usually for no more than an hour or two, although it has been down as long as 5 days, either during tornado season, or ice taking down power lines. What these people are looking for is Just In Case a big event happens. They do not want to have all those panels just sitting there. *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jay Peltz *Sent:* Friday, April 26, 2013 12:25 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Back-up and Grid Tie Hi bill Just how often is your grid down? Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Bill Turberville billt...@ece-llc.com wrote: I live in a TVA area where there is a Feed In Tariff. Everything that is generated by the PV array feeds into the grid through a Generation Meter that ties-in ahead of the house meter. I have started getting calls from customers who hate having a solar array that does not generate when the grid is down but the sun is shining, but who also want to get the $.12 premium when the grid is connected. We have lots of systems with SMA Sunnyboy inverters, but more with Enphase micro-inverters. Rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, what you found to be the best solution for this type of installation? W.C. (Bill) Turberville P.E. President ECE Solar Electrical Contracting Enterprises LLC 3080 Stage Post Road Suite 107 Bartlett, TN 38133 901-348-9230 ext 101 901-348-9230%20ext%20101 phone 901-348-2192 fax 901-289-6346 cell billt...@ece-llc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 032611-320 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette
