Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question

[Starlight Solar]

Allan,

I have a recent power issue come up with a Magnum inverter. A customer  
tried to operate her Splindide washer/dryer but the motor would not  
start. I looked at the waveform with a scope and RMS voltage and  
frequency were fine. The waveform looked good until the motor tried to  
start. The washer was putting a jagged noise riding on the sine wave.  
The voltage and waveform still looked OK other than the noise. Mostly  
sure that this was the cause, I grabbed a 600 watt cheap import sine  
wave inverter and connected the washer. Same ripple was present on the  
waveform but the $400 inverter would run the washer motor fine. It  
also ran fine with a 1600 watt Honda inverter/generator. I have  
written to Magnum about this and had no response to date (about 4 days  
now).


Have you looked at the waveform while operating the igniter?  Perhaps  
this is a similar problem.



Kindest Regards,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar
(928) 941-1660
Renewable Energy Products, Service and Installation

Mailing Address (NO SHIPPING):
Box 4
11279 S. Glenwood Ave
Yuma, AZ 85367

Shipping and retail store (NO MAIL):
2998 Shari Ave
Yuma, AZ 85365

On Feb 9, 2009, at 11:16 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote:


Wrenches,
We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has  
had this or a related problem, and what to do about it.


This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional:  
1,800W PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16  
S-460s, installed summer 2008. This existing home is being  
extensively remodeled, and the home is not yet occupied. A local  
mechanical contractor installed a new infloor radiant (gypcrete)  
hydronic heating system using a Netherlands-made (German company)  
Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The problem is that the boiler  
won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears that the hot- 
surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on straight  
120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control circuitry). We  
tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging it straight into  
inverter AC and it lit right up.


The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142  
boiler with the same result. I was told that they brought out a  
generator and it also failed to ignite on generator AC, but not  
knowing the generator used or the way it was wired (I believe an  
extension cord to a portable) I don't put much weight on this data.  
They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to test the theory  
that a different manufacturer's boiler might work. The Lochinvar  
boiler, which uses a different control and a spark ignition rather  
than a hot surface igniter, worked on site without any problems.


I'm looking for solutions. Magnum tech support had not heard of  
this. Have you?
Also, if indeed we have an inverter that is incapable of running  
this load, how do we make it right to the homeowner and the  
mechanical contractor? What should be Magnum's obligation? What  
should be ours? This issue hasn't come up here since the days when  
the Trace SW mod-sine series was the waveform standard.


Thanks,
Allan Sindelar
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question

[robert ellison]

Seems that I remember that the APC and other backups are not a sine wave but
a modified wave? But it's been a while.

Bob

On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote:

> I installed an off-grid system with identical symptoms:
>
> OB VFX 3648 dual stack
> Buderus GB142-24
> Kohler 12 kW propane genny
>
> The boiler runs fine on the inverter power, but will occasionally error
> out (6A) and shut down while the generator is running (usually after it
> has been on for hours).  The plumber installed an APC uninterruptable
> power supply/surge suppressor (not sure of the model) before the boiler,
> but when running on the internal inverter, the symptoms seemed to get
> worse.  When running on just the surge suppressor portion, the symptoms
> were the same as if the APC wasn't in-line.  We've checked the grounding
> at the genny, made sure the neutral was isolated except for the main
> panel, still the same problem.  Seems this is a Buderus issue (or at least
> not an inverter one) - see:
>
>
> http://www.buderus.net/Support/TechnicalInfoForums/tabid/132/forumid/15/threadid/4334/scope/posts/Default.aspx
>
> I haven't been able to make the boiler run reliably when the genny is on,
> which is a problem in our climate, when the client goes away in the
> winter...
>
> Howie
> --
> Howie Michaelson
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
>
> Sun Catcher, LLC
> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
> VT Solar & Wind Incentive Program Partner
> http://www.SunCatcherVT.com 
> (cell) 802-272-0004
> (home) 802-439-6096
>
>
> On Wed, February 11, 2009 7:47 am, Darryl Thayer wrote:
> > Some of the hot surface ignitors I have seen draw a lot of current, in
> the
> > order of amps.  I would expect the inverter to drop out if it were
> > overloaded however.  Also does the magnum drop voltage at very low loads?
> > Where the furnace controls can not function due to low voltage or poor
> > wave shape.
> >
> > Darryl
> >
> >
> >>
> >> This may be true about high frequency switching interfering
> >> with something, but I believe the problem with this ignitor
> >> is that it is a very poor design. Judging by what I read on
> >> their company forum, it doesn't look like they have a
> >> clue about
> >> this problem. Maybe you can go inside the Buderus and
> >> filter something there or maybe you can fine another product
> >> to try ?
> >>
> >> boB
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question

[Allan Sindelar]

Wrenches,
Thank you to you Wrenches who have responded. Keep them coming; I'm
collating all as part of our customer support on this. We have several ideas
to try out.

Darryl, it's not excessive draw. I had a Kill-a-Watt on the AC input during
on-site testing. I saw a momentary peak of 360W (for all, including AC
pumps). The observed draw sequence was 205W for the purge blower, followed
by 270 for the igniter for about 5 seconds, dropping to 220-230W upon
ignition. Later, the hydronic distributor's rep turned down the sidearm
circulator pump from high to low setting and reduced this pump draw by about
45-50 watts. AC voltage during testing bounced around in the range of
117-123VAC, but the fluctuation was not load-based.

At this point Magnum has stepped up to support us; we'll see where this goes
and how it (hopefully) resolves. Magnum has suggested a 50 microfarad
capacitor, per Peter's suggestion. They have also contacted the wholesale
distributor for Buderus boilers for New Mexico, and I believe the plan is to
ship the boiler to Magnum for testing. I may have further questions for the
list, and I'll eventually post how all this resolves.

Allan at Positive Energy

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches- On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer

Some of the hot surface ignitors I have seen draw a lot of current, in the
order of amps.  I would expect the inverter to drop out if it were
overloaded however.  Also does the magnum drop voltage at very low loads?
Where the furnace controls can not function due to low voltage or poor wave
shape.

Darryl


--- On Wed, 2/11/09, boB Gudgel  wrote:

>> Peter Parrish wrote:
> > 
> > As an old Ham Radio Operator, it would seem the
> solution is very simple. First, I assume that the voltage is
> compliant and so is the frequency. The problem is high
> frequency noise (hash from the switching circuitry) on the
> waveform that has not been filtered out. Figure out the
> switching frequency and get a low-pass filter whose cutoff
> is below the switching frequency but above 60 Hz. Make sure
> the filter is rated for the load, but since we're taking
> about a burner control/igniter, we're talking low-power,
> correct? LPFs are low-cost commodity items, probably in
> DigiKey or similar catalogs.
> > 
> > - Peter
> > 
> 
> This may be true about high frequency switching interfering
> with something, but I believe the problem with this ignitor
> is that it is a very poor design. Judging by what I read on
> their company forum, it doesn't look like they have a
> clue about
> this problem. Maybe you can go inside the Buderus and
> filter something there or maybe you can fine another product
> to try ?
> 
> boB
>
*From:* *David Katz
>> > 
> > Hi Allan,
> > This is not an unusual problem. i have seen it with
> conventional forced air heating systems. The burner controls
> would not run on A Xantrex or Outback sine wave inverter.
> There is something about waveforms from inverters designed
> by Trace legacy engineers. I had to put in Exeltech or
> Studer inverters to operate the heating control system. you
> can do this and still run larger pumps and fans on the
> Magnum.
> > David

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question

[Hans Frederickson]

A few years back, we had a customer who was having similar problems. I don't
recall if it was a Buderus boiler, but the generator was a Generac. This was
a simple generator backup system. We were able to get the boiler to work
reliably after adjusting the governor on the generator so that it ran at
60Hz under load. As I recall, it would then drift above 60Hz when unloaded.

If you were to try a UPS, it would need to be a dual-conversion type to make
a difference, otherwise it would just pass the generator power straight
through. True dual-conversion UPS units are very expensive... Probably
costing more than the cheap generator in many cases.

-Hans

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie
Michaelson
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 6:52 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question

I installed an off-grid system with identical symptoms:

OB VFX 3648 dual stack
Buderus GB142-24
Kohler 12 kW propane genny

The boiler runs fine on the inverter power, but will occasionally error out
(6A) and shut down while the generator is running (usually after it has been
on for hours).  The plumber installed an APC uninterruptable power
supply/surge suppressor (not sure of the model) before the boiler, but when
running on the internal inverter, the symptoms seemed to get worse.  When
running on just the surge suppressor portion, the symptoms were the same as
if the APC wasn't in-line.  We've checked the grounding at the genny, made
sure the neutral was isolated except for the main panel, still the same
problem.  Seems this is a Buderus issue (or at least not an inverter one) -
see:

http://www.buderus.net/Support/TechnicalInfoForums/tabid/132/forumid/15/thre
adid/4334/scope/posts/Default.aspx

I haven't been able to make the boiler run reliably when the genny is on,
which is a problem in our climate, when the client goes away in the
winter...

Howie
--
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV InstallerT

Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar & Wind Incentive Program
Partner http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096


On Wed, February 11, 2009 7:47 am, Darryl Thayer wrote:
> Some of the hot surface ignitors I have seen draw a lot of current, in 
> the order of amps.  I would expect the inverter to drop out if it were 
> overloaded however.  Also does the magnum drop voltage at very low loads?
> Where the furnace controls can not function due to low voltage or poor 
> wave shape.
>
> Darryl
>
>
>>
>> This may be true about high frequency switching interfering with 
>> something, but I believe the problem with this ignitor is that it is 
>> a very poor design. Judging by what I read on their company forum, it 
>> doesn't look like they have a clue about this problem. Maybe you can 
>> go inside the Buderus and filter something there or maybe you can 
>> fine another product to try ?
>>
>> boB



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question

[jay peltz]

I dont' know if you can power just the part this is giving problems  
and not the big load which is pumping?

but had a similar problem with an SW trace.
I installed a Exeltech inverter to power that load specifically and  
ever since has worked fine.


The guys at Exeltech make a wave form that everything likes.
Just a thought,

jay

peltz power
On Feb 11, 2009, at 6:52 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote:


I installed an off-grid system with identical symptoms:

OB VFX 3648 dual stack
Buderus GB142-24
Kohler 12 kW propane genny

The boiler runs fine on the inverter power, but will occasionally  
error
out (6A) and shut down while the generator is running (usually after  
it

has been on for hours).  The plumber installed an APC uninterruptable
power supply/surge suppressor (not sure of the model) before the  
boiler,

but when running on the internal inverter, the symptoms seemed to get
worse.  When running on just the surge suppressor portion, the  
symptoms
were the same as if the APC wasn't in-line.  We've checked the  
grounding

at the genny, made sure the neutral was isolated except for the main
panel, still the same problem.  Seems this is a Buderus issue (or at  
least

not an inverter one) - see:

http://www.buderus.net/Support/TechnicalInfoForums/tabid/132/forumid/15/threadid/4334/scope/posts/Default.aspx

I haven't been able to make the boiler run reliably when the genny  
is on,

which is a problem in our climate, when the client goes away in the
winter...

Howie
--
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™

Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar & Wind Incentive Program Partner
http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096


On Wed, February 11, 2009 7:47 am, Darryl Thayer wrote:
Some of the hot surface ignitors I have seen draw a lot of current,  
in the

order of amps.  I would expect the inverter to drop out if it were
overloaded however.  Also does the magnum drop voltage at very low  
loads?
Where the furnace controls can not function due to low voltage or  
poor

wave shape.

Darryl




This may be true about high frequency switching interfering
with something, but I believe the problem with this ignitor
is that it is a very poor design. Judging by what I read on
their company forum, it doesn't look like they have a
clue about
this problem. Maybe you can go inside the Buderus and
filter something there or maybe you can fine another product
to try ?

boB




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question

[Howie Michaelson]

I installed an off-grid system with identical symptoms:

OB VFX 3648 dual stack
Buderus GB142-24
Kohler 12 kW propane genny

The boiler runs fine on the inverter power, but will occasionally error
out (6A) and shut down while the generator is running (usually after it
has been on for hours).  The plumber installed an APC uninterruptable
power supply/surge suppressor (not sure of the model) before the boiler,
but when running on the internal inverter, the symptoms seemed to get
worse.  When running on just the surge suppressor portion, the symptoms
were the same as if the APC wasn't in-line.  We've checked the grounding
at the genny, made sure the neutral was isolated except for the main
panel, still the same problem.  Seems this is a Buderus issue (or at least
not an inverter one) - see:

http://www.buderus.net/Support/TechnicalInfoForums/tabid/132/forumid/15/threadid/4334/scope/posts/Default.aspx

I haven't been able to make the boiler run reliably when the genny is on,
which is a problem in our climate, when the client goes away in the
winter...

Howie
-- 
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™

Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar & Wind Incentive Program Partner
http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096


On Wed, February 11, 2009 7:47 am, Darryl Thayer wrote:
> Some of the hot surface ignitors I have seen draw a lot of current, in the
> order of amps.  I would expect the inverter to drop out if it were
> overloaded however.  Also does the magnum drop voltage at very low loads?
> Where the furnace controls can not function due to low voltage or poor
> wave shape.
>
> Darryl
>
>
>>
>> This may be true about high frequency switching interfering
>> with something, but I believe the problem with this ignitor
>> is that it is a very poor design. Judging by what I read on
>> their company forum, it doesn't look like they have a
>> clue about
>> this problem. Maybe you can go inside the Buderus and
>> filter something there or maybe you can fine another product
>> to try ?
>>
>> boB



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question

[Darryl Thayer]

Some of the hot surface ignitors I have seen draw a lot of current, in the 
order of amps.  I would expect the inverter to drop out if it were overloaded 
however.  Also does the magnum drop voltage at very low loads?  Where the 
furnace controls can not function due to low voltage or poor wave shape.

Darryl


--- On Wed, 2/11/09, boB Gudgel  wrote:

> From: boB Gudgel 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 12:03 AM
> Peter Parrish wrote:
> > 
> > As an old Ham Radio Operator, it would seem the
> solution is very simple. First, I assume that the voltage is
> compliant and so is the frequency. The problem is high
> frequency noise (hash from the switching circuitry) on the
> waveform that has not been filtered out. Figure out the
> switching frequency and get a low-pass filter whose cutoff
> is below the switching frequency but above 60 Hz. Make sure
> the filter is rated for the load, but since we’re taking
> about a burner control/igniter, we’re talking low-power,
> correct? LPFs are low-cost commodity items, probably in
> DigiKey or similar catalogs.
> > 
> > - Peter
> > 
> 
> This may be true about high frequency switching interfering
> with something, but I believe the problem with this ignitor
> is that it is a very poor design. Judging by what I read on
> their company forum, it doesn't look like they have a
> clue about
> this problem. Maybe you can go inside the Buderus and
> filter something there or maybe you can fine another product
> to try ?
> 
> boB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Peter T. Parrish, President
> > California Solar Engineering, Inc.
> > 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
> > Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
> > CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
> > peter.parr...@calsolareng.com
> > 
> >
> 
> > 
> > *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *David Katz
> > *Sent:* Monday, February 09, 2009 9:31 PM
> > *To:* al...@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches
> > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE
> Compatibility Question
> > 
> > Hi Allan,
> > This is not an unusual problem. i have seen it with
> conventional forced air heating systems. The burner controls
> would not run on A Xantrex or Outback sine wave inverter.
> There is something about waveforms from inverters designed
> by Trace legacy engineers. I had to put in Exeltech or
> Studer inverters to operate the heating control system. you
> can do this and still run larger pumps and fans on the
> Magnum.
> > David
> > 
> > David Katz
> > 
> > President
> > 
> > AEE Solar
> > 
> > 1155 Redway Drive
> > 
> > P.O. Box 339
> > 
> > Redway, CA 95560
> > 
> > Tel (707) 825-1200
> > 
> > Fax (707) 825-1202
> > 
> > da...@aeesolar.com <mailto:da...@aeesolar.com>
> > 
> > www.aeesolar.com <http://www.aeesolar.com>
> > 
> > DISCLAIMER:
> > This communication, along with any documents, files or
> attachments, is intended for the use of only the addressee
> and contains privileged and confidential information. If you
> are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that
> any dissemination, distribution or copying of any
> information contained in or attached to this communication
> is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in
> error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail reply
> and destroy the original communication and its attachments
> without reading, printing or saving in any manner.
> > 
> > P Please consider the environment before printing this
> e-mail.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Allan Sindelar wrote:
> > 
> > Wrenches,
> > We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if
> anyone else has had this
> > or a related problem, and what to do about it.
> > This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very
> conventional: 1,800W
> > PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter,
> MX60, 16 S-460s,
> > installed summer 2008. This existing home is being
> extensively remodeled,
> > and the home is not yet occupied. A local mechanical
> contractor installed a
> > new infloor radiant (gypcrete) hydronic heating system
> using a
> > Netherlands-made (German company) Buderus GB142
> high-efficiency boiler. The
> > problem is that the boiler won't start reliably on
> the invert

Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question

[boB Gudgel]

Peter Parrish wrote:


As an old Ham Radio Operator, it would seem the solution is very 
simple. First, I assume that the voltage is compliant and so is the 
frequency. The problem is high frequency noise (hash from the 
switching circuitry) on the waveform that has not been filtered out. 
Figure out the switching frequency and get a low-pass filter whose 
cutoff is below the switching frequency but above 60 Hz. Make sure the 
filter is rated for the load, but since we’re taking about a burner 
control/igniter, we’re talking low-power, correct? LPFs are low-cost 
commodity items, probably in DigiKey or similar catalogs.


- Peter



This may be true about high frequency switching interfering with 
something, but I believe the problem with this ignitor
is that it is a very poor design. Judging by what I read on their 
company forum, it doesn't look like they have a clue about
this problem. Maybe you can go inside the Buderus and filter something 
there or maybe you can fine another product to try ?


boB





Peter T. Parrish, President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com



*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of 
*David Katz

*Sent:* Monday, February 09, 2009 9:31 PM
*To:* al...@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question

Hi Allan,
This is not an unusual problem. i have seen it with conventional 
forced air heating systems. The burner controls would not run on A 
Xantrex or Outback sine wave inverter. There is something about 
waveforms from inverters designed by Trace legacy engineers. I had to 
put in Exeltech or Studer inverters to operate the heating control 
system. you can do this and still run larger pumps and fans on the Magnum.

David

David Katz

President

AEE Solar

1155 Redway Drive

P.O. Box 339

Redway, CA 95560

Tel (707) 825-1200

Fax (707) 825-1202

da...@aeesolar.com <mailto:da...@aeesolar.com>

www.aeesolar.com <http://www.aeesolar.com>

DISCLAIMER:
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are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of 
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or saving in any manner.


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Allan Sindelar wrote:

Wrenches,
We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has had this
or a related problem, and what to do about it.
This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional: 1,800W
PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16 S-460s,
installed summer 2008. This existing home is being extensively remodeled,
and the home is not yet occupied. A local mechanical contractor installed a
new infloor radiant (gypcrete) hydronic heating system using a
Netherlands-made (German company) Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The
problem is that the boiler won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears
that the hot-surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on
straight 120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control circuitry).
We tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging it straight into
inverter AC and it lit right up. 
The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142 boiler with

the same result. I was told that they brought out a generator and it also
failed to ignite on generator AC, but not knowing the generator used or the
way it was wired (I believe an extension cord to a portable) I don't put
much weight on this data. They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to
test the theory that a different manufacturer's boiler might work. The
Lochinvar boiler, which uses a different control and a spark ignition rather
than a hot surface igniter, worked on site without any problems.
I'm looking for solutions. Magnum tech support had not heard of this. Have
you? 
Also, if indeed we have an inverter that is incapable of running this load,

how do we make it right to the homeowner and the mechanical contractor? What
should be Magnum's obligation? What should be ours? This issue hasn't come
up here since the days when the Trace SW mod-sine series was the waveform
standard.
Thanks,
Allan Sindelar
allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com <mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com> 
NABCEP certifie

Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question

[Peter Parrish]

As an old Ham Radio Operator, it would seem the solution is very simple.
First, I assume that the voltage is compliant and so is the frequency. The
problem is high frequency noise (hash from the switching circuitry) on the
waveform that has not been filtered out. Figure out the switching frequency
and get a low-pass filter whose cutoff is below the switching frequency but
above 60 Hz. Make sure the filter is rated for the load, but since we're
taking about a burner control/igniter, we're talking low-power, correct?
LPFs are low-cost commodity items, probably in DigiKey or similar catalogs.

 

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com 

  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Katz
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 9:31 PM
To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question

 

Hi Allan,
This is not an unusual problem.  i have seen it with conventional forced air
heating systems.  The burner controls would not run on A Xantrex or Outback
sine wave inverter.  There is something about waveforms from inverters
designed by Trace legacy engineers.  I had to put in Exeltech or Studer
inverters to operate the heating control system.  you can do this and still
run larger pumps and fans on the Magnum.
David

David Katz

President

AEE Solar

1155 Redway Drive

P.O. Box 339

Redway, CA  95560

Tel (707) 825-1200

Fax (707) 825-1202

da...@aeesolar.com

www.aeesolar.com

 

DISCLAIMER: 
This communication, along with any documents, files or attachments, is
intended for the use of only the addressee and contains privileged and
confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of any
information contained in or attached to this communication is strictly
prohibited.  If you have received this message in error, please notify the
sender immediately by e-mail reply and destroy the original communication
and its attachments without reading, printing or saving in any manner.

P  Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.



Allan Sindelar wrote: 

Wrenches,
We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has had this
or a related problem, and what to do about it.
This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional: 1,800W
PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16 S-460s,
installed summer 2008. This existing home is being extensively remodeled,
and the home is not yet occupied. A local mechanical contractor installed a
new infloor radiant (gypcrete) hydronic heating system using a
Netherlands-made (German company) Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The
problem is that the boiler won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears
that the hot-surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on
straight 120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control circuitry).
We tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging it straight into
inverter AC and it lit right up. 
The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142 boiler with
the same result. I was told that they brought out a generator and it also
failed to ignite on generator AC, but not knowing the generator used or the
way it was wired (I believe an extension cord to a portable) I don't put
much weight on this data. They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to
test the theory that a different manufacturer's boiler might work. The
Lochinvar boiler, which uses a different control and a spark ignition rather
than a hot surface igniter, worked on site without any problems.
I'm looking for solutions. Magnum tech support had not heard of this. Have
you? 
Also, if indeed we have an inverter that is incapable of running this load,
how do we make it right to the homeowner and the mechanical contractor? What
should be Magnum's obligation? What should be ours? This issue hasn't come
up here since the days when the Trace SW mod-sine series was the waveform
standard.
Thanks,
Allan Sindelar
allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com  <mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com>
<mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com> 
NABCEP certified solar PV installer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3225A Richards Lane
Santa Fe NM 87507
505 424-1112
 
 
  
 





  _  



 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question

[boB Gudgel]

David Katz wrote:

Hi Allan,
This is not an unusual problem.  i have seen it with conventional 
forced air heating systems.  The burner controls would not run on A 
Xantrex or Outback sine wave inverter.  There is something about 
waveforms from inverters designed by Trace legacy engineers.  I had to 
put in Exeltech or Studer inverters to operate the heating control 
system.  you can do this and still run larger pumps and fans on the 
Magnum.

David

Try this:   Add a semi-large load to that inverter and then see if the 
ignitor works in addition to that load.  A lot of times, a SineWave
inverter will clean up its waveform some when loaded due to 
inductances...  Yes, even inverters designed by X Trace Engineering

and/or Xandroid engineers.

BTW, I checked that company's forum and this same basic question showed 
up, except it was a generator that had problems.  They couldn't
answer it either, except to say that separating (or connecting 
together?) the Neutral and Ground wires might fix it for some reason.  
Must be

something I'm missing there, but I've seen stranger things I suppose.

boB


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question

[David Katz]

Hi Allan,
This is not an unusual problem.  i have seen it with conventional forced 
air heating systems.  The burner controls would not run on A Xantrex or 
Outback sine wave inverter.  There is something about waveforms from 
inverters designed by Trace legacy engineers.  I had to put in Exeltech 
or Studer inverters to operate the heating control system.  you can do 
this and still run larger pumps and fans on the Magnum.

David

David Katz

President

AEE Solar

1155 Redway Drive

P.O. Box 339

Redway, CA  95560

Tel (707) 825-1200

Fax (707) 825-1202

da...@aeesolar.com 

www.aeesolar.com 



DISCLAIMER:
This communication, along with any documents, files or attachments, is 
intended for the use of only the addressee and contains privileged and 
confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are 
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of any 
information contained in or attached to this communication is strictly 
prohibited.  If you have received this message in error, please notify 
the sender immediately by e-mail reply and destroy the original 
communication and its attachments without reading, printing or saving in 
any manner.


P  Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.



Allan Sindelar wrote:

Wrenches,
We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has had this
or a related problem, and what to do about it.
This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional: 1,800W
PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16 S-460s,
installed summer 2008. This existing home is being extensively remodeled,
and the home is not yet occupied. A local mechanical contractor installed a
new infloor radiant (gypcrete) hydronic heating system using a
Netherlands-made (German company) Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The
problem is that the boiler won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears
that the hot-surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on
straight 120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control circuitry).
We tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging it straight into
inverter AC and it lit right up. 
The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142 boiler with

the same result. I was told that they brought out a generator and it also
failed to ignite on generator AC, but not knowing the generator used or the
way it was wired (I believe an extension cord to a portable) I don't put
much weight on this data. They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to
test the theory that a different manufacturer's boiler might work. The
Lochinvar boiler, which uses a different control and a spark ignition rather
than a hot surface igniter, worked on site without any problems.
I'm looking for solutions. Magnum tech support had not heard of this. Have
you? 
Also, if indeed we have an inverter that is incapable of running this load,

how do we make it right to the homeowner and the mechanical contractor? What
should be Magnum's obligation? What should be ours? This issue hasn't come
up here since the days when the Trace SW mod-sine series was the waveform
standard.
Thanks,
Allan Sindelar
allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com  
NABCEP certified solar PV installer

Positive Energy, Inc.
3225A Richards Lane
Santa Fe NM 87507
505 424-1112


  



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question

[Ezra Auerbach]

Have you tried a different SW inverter at the site? There is a  
difference between brands.


Also, have you tried a "clean" wave form gennie like the Honda  
inverter series.


Finally I don't think that most manufacturers will guarantee that  
their wave form will power a specific load.


Regards,

Ezra Auerbach



On 9-Feb-09, at 4:18 PM, robert ellison  wrote:

I wonder if a work around might be to run the igniter off a relay  
activated by the original board and fed by the inverter direct?


I have seen things not start when the charger was drawing off the  
generator, not Magnums but old Hearts.


Bob

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 1:16 PM, Allan Sindelar > wrote:

Wrenches,
We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has  
had this or a related problem, and what to do about it.


This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional:  
1,800W PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16  
S-460s, installed summer 2008. This existing home is being  
extensively remodeled, and the home is not yet occupied. A local  
mechanical contractor installed a new infloor radiant (gypcrete)  
hydronic heating system using a Netherlands-made (German company)  
Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The problem is that the boiler  
won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears that the hot- 
surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on straight  
120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control circuitry). We  
tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging it straight into  
inverter AC and it lit right up.


The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142  
boiler with the same result. I was told that they brought out a  
generator and it also failed to ignite on generator AC, but not  
knowing the generator used or the way it was wired (I believe an  
extension cord to a portable) I don't put much weight on this data.  
They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to test the theory  
that a different manufacturer's boiler might work. The Lochinvar  
boiler, which uses a different control and a spark ignition rather  
than a hot surface igniter, worked on site without any problems.


I'm looking for solutions. Magnum tech support had not heard of  
this. Have you?
Also, if indeed we have an inverter that is incapable of running  
this load, how do we make it right to the homeowner and the  
mechanical contractor? What should be Magnum's obligation? What  
should be ours? This issue hasn't come up here since the days when  
the Trace SW mod-sine series was the waveform standard.


Thanks,
Allan Sindelar
allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP certified solar PV installer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3225A Richards Lane
Santa Fe NM 87507
505 424-1112


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question

[robert ellison]

I wonder if a work around might be to run the igniter off a relay activated
by the original board and fed by the inverter direct?

I have seen things not start when the charger was drawing off the generator,
not Magnums but old Hearts.

Bob

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 1:16 PM, Allan Sindelar <
al...@positiveenergysolar.com> wrote:

>  Wrenches,
> We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has had this
> or a related problem, and what to do about it.
>
> This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional: 1,800W
> PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16 S-460s,
> installed summer 2008. This existing home is being extensively remodeled,
> and the home is not yet occupied. A local mechanical contractor installed a
> new infloor radiant (gypcrete) hydronic heating system using a
> Netherlands-made (German company) Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The
> problem is that the boiler won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears
> that the hot-surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on
> straight 120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control circuitry).
> We tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging it straight into
> inverter AC and it lit right up.
>
> The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142 boiler with
> the same result. I was told that they brought out a generator and it also
> failed to ignite on generator AC, but not knowing the generator used or the
> way it was wired (I believe an extension cord to a portable) I don't put
> much weight on this data. They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to
> test the theory that a different manufacturer's boiler might work. The
> Lochinvar boiler, which uses a different control and a spark ignition rather
> than a hot surface igniter, worked on site without any problems.
>
> I'm looking for solutions. Magnum tech support had not heard of this. Have
> you?
> Also, if indeed we have an inverter that is incapable of running this load,
> how do we make it right to the homeowner and the mechanical contractor? What
> should be Magnum's obligation? What should be ours? This issue hasn't come
> up here since the days when the Trace SW mod-sine series was the waveform
> standard.
>
> Thanks,
> Allan Sindelar
> ***allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com* 
> NABCEP certified solar PV installer
> Positive Energy, Inc.
> 3225A Richards Lane
> Santa Fe NM 87507
> 505 424-1112
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question

[ryan]

I use a lot of these Magnum 4448's and have never had any trouble like that. i 
did have some real odd behavior out of the first 3 i installed and we worked 
with magnum to get a software upgrade that would handle surge better.
Mine where falling off for a lenghtly period of time when a heavy load would 
kick on enough so that things like clocks would reset and blink. so maybe if 
you have a low serial number sub 150 i think? that may play a part in it.
I will say these arent the cadillac by any means but i feel they are a good 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question

[John Raynes]

I second Dana's response.  I have observed that the MS4448 waveform 
quality degenerates quite rapidly with imbalanced loading of one or 
the other of the 120 volt output legs.  I can't give a quantitative 
(% distortion/amps) number to it, but I would classify it as 
severe.  I first noticed it when doing some test measurements in the 
shop, and found large discrepancies between various current metering 
devices I was using, as some of the meters were not measuring RMS, 
and the distortion was throwing them way off.  And when using 120 
volt motors, even though their surge may be well within specified 
load limits, count on things not going well.


I'm generally satisfied with the Magnum MS4448, but this is one the 
two key shortcomings that I see with the product.  The other is the 
idle power draw when not in search.


John Raynes
RE Solar
Torrey, UT


At 11:16 AM 2/9/2009, you wrote:


Wrenches,
We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has 
had this or a related problem, and what to do about it.


This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional: 
1,800W PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16 
S-460s, installed summer 2008. This existing home is being 
extensively remodeled, and the home is not yet occupied. A local 
mechanical contractor installed a new infloor radiant (gypcrete) 
hydronic heating system using a Netherlands-made (German company) 
Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The problem is that the boiler 
won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears that the 
hot-surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on 
straight 120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control 
circuitry). We tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging 
it straight into inverter AC and it lit right up.


The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142 
boiler with the same result. I was told that they brought out a 
generator and it also failed to ignite on generator AC, but not 
knowing the generator used or the way it was wired (I believe an 
extension cord to a portable) I don't put much weight on this data. 
They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to test the theory 
that a different manufacturer's boiler might work. The Lochinvar 
boiler, which uses a different control and a spark ignition rather 
than a hot surface igniter, worked on site without any problems.


I'm looking for solutions. Magnum tech support had not heard of 
this. Have you?
Also, if indeed we have an inverter that is incapable of running 
this load, how do we make it right to the homeowner and the 
mechanical contractor? What should be Magnum's obligation? What 
should be ours? This issue hasn't come up here since the days when 
the Trace SW mod-sine series was the waveform standard.


Thanks,
Allan Sindelar
allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP certified solar PV installer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3225A Richards Lane
Santa Fe NM 87507
505 424-1112
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[RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question

[Dana]

I have hit this one a couple of times but not with the equipment you are
listing. It turned out to be how the sine wave crossed the X axis and the
controls did not like the wave form.

 

Thanks -

 

Dana Orzel

 

Great Solar Works, Inc

www.solarwork.com

E - d...@solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

"I'd put my money on solar energy. I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and
coal run out before we tackle that."

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1931

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan
Sindelar
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 11:16 AM
To: RE Wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question

 

Wrenches, 
We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has had this
or a related problem, and what to do about it.

This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional: 1,800W
PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16 S-460s,
installed summer 2008. This existing home is being extensively remodeled,
and the home is not yet occupied. A local mechanical contractor installed a
new infloor radiant (gypcrete) hydronic heating system using a
Netherlands-made (German company) Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The
problem is that the boiler won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears
that the hot-surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on
straight 120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control circuitry).
We tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging it straight into
inverter AC and it lit right up. 

The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142 boiler with
the same result. I was told that they brought out a generator and it also
failed to ignite on generator AC, but not knowing the generator used or the
way it was wired (I believe an extension cord to a portable) I don't put
much weight on this data. They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to
test the theory that a different manufacturer's boiler might work. The
Lochinvar boiler, which uses a different control and a spark ignition rather
than a hot surface igniter, worked on site without any problems.

I'm looking for solutions. Magnum tech support had not heard of this. Have
you? 
Also, if indeed we have an inverter that is incapable of running this load,
how do we make it right to the homeowner and the mechanical contractor? What
should be Magnum's obligation? What should be ours? This issue hasn't come
up here since the days when the Trace SW mod-sine series was the waveform
standard.

Thanks, 
Allan Sindelar 
 <mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com> allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com 
NABCEP certified solar PV installer 
Positive Energy, Inc. 
3225A Richards Lane 
Santa Fe NM 87507 
505 424-1112 

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[RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question

[Allan Sindelar]

Wrenches,
We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has had this
or a related problem, and what to do about it.
This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional: 1,800W
PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16 S-460s,
installed summer 2008. This existing home is being extensively remodeled,
and the home is not yet occupied. A local mechanical contractor installed a
new infloor radiant (gypcrete) hydronic heating system using a
Netherlands-made (German company) Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The
problem is that the boiler won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears
that the hot-surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on
straight 120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control circuitry).
We tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging it straight into
inverter AC and it lit right up. 
The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142 boiler with
the same result. I was told that they brought out a generator and it also
failed to ignite on generator AC, but not knowing the generator used or the
way it was wired (I believe an extension cord to a portable) I don't put
much weight on this data. They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to
test the theory that a different manufacturer's boiler might work. The
Lochinvar boiler, which uses a different control and a spark ignition rather
than a hot surface igniter, worked on site without any problems.
I'm looking for solutions. Magnum tech support had not heard of this. Have
you? 
Also, if indeed we have an inverter that is incapable of running this load,
how do we make it right to the homeowner and the mechanical contractor? What
should be Magnum's obligation? What should be ours? This issue hasn't come
up here since the days when the Trace SW mod-sine series was the waveform
standard.
Thanks,
Allan Sindelar
allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com  
NABCEP certified solar PV installer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3225A Richards Lane
Santa Fe NM 87507
505 424-1112

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