Re: Delaying 4.0?
On Tuesday 27 November 2007 23:57:15 Sebastian Kuegler wrote: > > Maybe tagging on Friday, 4 January, releasing on Thursday, 11? Are we sure that we have people being able to tag and package KDE in this week? I guess chances that people are on holiday at this time are not too low. > That could go along with last-minute BIC changes that make a stable 4.0 > considerably easier. (That's mostly kconfig and kjob?) The last minute for BIC changes has already gone. If we allow some single changes as exception there have to be very good and documented reasons. -- Cornelius Schumacher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ release-team mailing list release-team@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/release-team
Re: Delaying 4.0?
On Tuesday 27 November 2007 23:57:15 Sebastian Kuegler wrote: > Our current schedule says that we'll be tagging 4.0 coming week. I propose > shifting the release into January and instead doing -rc2 next. That gives > us one more month for getting rid of the showstoppers that are still there, > and also for polishing the user experience, artwork and translations. > > Maybe tagging on Friday, 4 January, releasing on Thursday, 11? > > That could go along with last-minute BIC changes that make a stable 4.0 > considerably easier. (That's mostly kconfig and kjob?) > > Opinions? I've not seen a considerable amount of objections so I'm going ahead and announce the changed plans later today. We might as well do it before osnews does it for us. :-) -- sebas http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ release-team mailing list release-team@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/release-team
Re: Delaying 4.0?
> From a KDE point-of-view: I doubt the extra time will help, given the holidays. I think that's a very pessimistic assumption. If I look at the past two years (which probably reflect the commit-habits of our current contributor base best) then I see that the month december has been even slightly better in terms of commit numbers than november. And looking at the last week of commits during the last year I see several names that are important to make KDE 4 shine :-) Torsten -- Torsten Rahn Tel.: 0 21 61 - 46 43 - 192 credativ GmbH, HRB Mönchengladbach 12080 Hohenzollernstr. 133, 41061 Mönchengladbach Geschäftsführung: Dr. Michael Meskes, Jörg Folz ___ release-team mailing list release-team@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/release-team
Re: Delaying 4.0?
On Tuesday 27 November 2007 17:57:15 Sebastian Kuegler wrote: > Our current schedule says that we'll be tagging 4.0 coming week. I propose > shifting the release into January and instead doing -rc2 next. That gives us > one more month for getting rid of the showstoppers that are still there, and > also for polishing the user experience, artwork and translations. > > Maybe tagging on Friday, 4 January, releasing on Thursday, 11? > > That could go along with last-minute BIC changes that make a stable 4.0 > considerably easier. (That's mostly kconfig and kjob?) > > Opinions? >From a KDEPIM point-of-view: I doubt the extra time will help. There are too showstoppers to make KDEPIM releasable in the near term. >From a KDE point-of-view: I doubt the extra time will help, given the holidays. But I won't oppose or object if others need want the extra time. ___ release-team mailing list release-team@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/release-team
Re: Delaying 4.0?
Op Tuesday 27 November 2007 23:57 schreef u: > Our current schedule says that we'll be tagging 4.0 coming week. I propose > shifting the release into January and instead doing -rc2 next. That gives us > one more month for getting rid of the showstoppers that are still there, and > also for polishing the user experience, artwork and translations. > > Maybe tagging on Friday, 4 January, releasing on Thursday, 11? > > That could go along with last-minute BIC changes that make a stable 4.0 > considerably easier. (That's mostly kconfig and kjob?) > > Opinions? +1 Toma___ release-team mailing list release-team@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/release-team
Re: Delaying 4.0?
On Wednesday 28 November 2007, Andras Mantia wrote: > On Wednesday 28 November 2007, Rex Dieter wrote: > > So, do *you* want to be the one to tell the event organizers that all > > their hard work and effort to pull the event together is now in > > jeopardy? Not I. > > No, I don't, but this is shows clearly how bad is to do a time based > release for a *new* product. that's why we didn't. we gave ourselves 2 years and really free floating schedules. there is, however, a difference between not doing a time based release and never releasing. > Sure, we have to draw a line and say this > is the release time, because otherwise we will never stop adding new > features. exactly. > Yet, if the release time is close and there are clear signs > that the quality for the product is not up to our expectations, there > shouldn't be any reason (like now the party) that will force us to > release something broken. you're presenting two scenarios as if they were the only ones. they aren't. the fact is that people are already working on new features (see Raphael's work on the file dialog for instance) and asking for branches and what not. we can't hold on to a freeze forever. we need to release. our users need to get a release. our 3rd party application developers need to get a release. etc... hell, WE need to get a release to get this behind us and our wheels moving again. because everytime i feel we get traction here, someone manages to poke their head up and say, "OMG! we can't release now!" and everyone goes back to a happy slow pace. screw that. > Of course, like others, I still hope KDE 4.0 will be in a good enough > shape at that time, but if not, I'd rather not release it before the > party. i hear and respect your opinion. i disagree with it (people naturally tend to have various opinions =), but it does highlight that we need a certain "good enough"ness to the release to make people such as youreself to be satisfied. i truly hope that you help make things as good enough as possible while also communicating *clearly* and *constructively* what "good enough" means. vague hand waving statements are not enough information to help me (and i assume others) help meet our combined expectations. this isn't the list for that conversation, though. we can take it elsewhere. perhaps in the blogosphere? > You can still celebrate the "upcoming KDE 4.0" release there. ;) this is why promo people don't tell us how to code. it would come out like crap. -- Aaron J. Seigo humru othro a kohnu se GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 KDE core developer sponsored by Trolltech pgp97VJmexBlf.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ release-team mailing list release-team@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/release-team
Re: Delaying 4.0?
On Wednesday 28 November 2007, David Faure wrote: > On Wednesday 28 November 2007, Rex Dieter wrote: > > Sebastian Kuegler wrote: > > > Our current schedule says that we'll be tagging 4.0 coming week. I > > > propose shifting the release into January and instead doing -rc2 next. > > > That gives us one more month for getting rid of the showstoppers that > > > are still there, and also for polishing the user experience, artwork > > > and translations. > > > > > > Maybe tagging on Friday, 4 January, releasing on Thursday, 11? > > > > If this is absolutely the last slip, sure. Otherwise, the release party > > scheduled for January 17 will look pretty silly. > > Well I always said it was silly to plan a release party in advance :-P sort of like how silly it is to plan a development schedule in advance, because those don't really matter either and you can just throw them together in a moment's notice, too. c'mon, let's try and be at least mildly supportive of the people who are working hard to treat communication and promotion with as much intent and passion as we treat our code. -- Aaron J. Seigo humru othro a kohnu se GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 KDE core developer sponsored by Trolltech pgpSKK7M1g14n.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ release-team mailing list release-team@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/release-team
Re: Delaying 4.0?
On 28.11.07 15:29:26, Sebastian Kügler wrote: > [CC:ing ev-marketing anyway.] > > On Wednesday 28 November 2007 15:08:50 Andreas Pakulat wrote: > > On 28.11.07 07:30:29, Rex Dieter wrote: > > > Andras Mantia wrote: > > > > On Wednesday 28 November 2007, Rex Dieter wrote: > > > >> If this is absolutely the last slip, sure. Otherwise, the release > > > >> party scheduled for January 17 will look pretty silly. > > > > > > > > But doing a release just for the shake of the release party is equally > > > > silly. :) > > > > > > So, do *you* want to be the one to tell the event organizers that all > > > their hard work and effort to pull the event together is now in > > > jeopardy? Not I. > > > > Huh? Why is their effort wasted if the release happens on Feb. 4th or > > some such? They can still pull off a release party. Its not like the > > party is going to be months before the release. > > > > IMHO its going to be much worse to do a release before the party, > > regardless of the state of KDE4. Reviews will rip KDE4 apart if the > > release is done that way and the released KDE 4.0.0 is not in a state > > thats worth a release. > > From a PR point of view, and for the sake of the release party, KDE is in a > state where we'd be able to present it at such an event. I explicitly tried to not talk about the actual current state of KDE4, because I simply don't know. I'm not using KDE4 on a regular basis, so I can't comment on the state - except a few bugs I encountered. > I don't share your opinion on what's worse, party before release or party > after release. You really want to have the release out when you're showing it > to the public (which is what the event is all about, Industry, Press and > Community). Telling them that it's not released and thus still very much > vapourware would be "quite unfortunate" (read "sucks"). Hmm, indeed. I obviously didn't dive into the content of that party as it seems. I agree that having a release party that shows off the release to all the "3rd party people" without actual release might be a bit worse than having more problems in the release than we'd like to have. And btw, jduging from what I read on various sites (dot, planetkde, irc) I do think a 4.0 release in early january is realistic. Andreas -- You're currently going through a difficult transition period called "Life." ___ release-team mailing list release-team@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/release-team
Re: Delaying 4.0?
[CC:ing ev-marketing anyway.] On Wednesday 28 November 2007 15:08:50 Andreas Pakulat wrote: > On 28.11.07 07:30:29, Rex Dieter wrote: > > Andras Mantia wrote: > > > On Wednesday 28 November 2007, Rex Dieter wrote: > > >> If this is absolutely the last slip, sure. Otherwise, the release > > >> party scheduled for January 17 will look pretty silly. > > > > > > But doing a release just for the shake of the release party is equally > > > silly. :) > > > > So, do *you* want to be the one to tell the event organizers that all > > their hard work and effort to pull the event together is now in > > jeopardy? Not I. > > Huh? Why is their effort wasted if the release happens on Feb. 4th or > some such? They can still pull off a release party. Its not like the > party is going to be months before the release. > > IMHO its going to be much worse to do a release before the party, > regardless of the state of KDE4. Reviews will rip KDE4 apart if the > release is done that way and the released KDE 4.0.0 is not in a state > thats worth a release. From a PR point of view, and for the sake of the release party, KDE is in a state where we'd be able to present it at such an event. I don't share your opinion on what's worse, party before release or party after release. You really want to have the release out when you're showing it to the public (which is what the event is all about, Industry, Press and Community). Telling them that it's not released and thus still very much vapourware would be "quite unfortunate" (read "sucks"). -- sebas http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ release-team mailing list release-team@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/release-team
Re: Delaying 4.0?
On Wednesday 28 November 2007 14:30:29 Rex Dieter wrote: > Regardless, I'd argue they should be in the loop here in any discussions > that involve any further delays in the release schedule. (CC'ing > kde-promo?) I consider myself the contact point for them, so that's fine. Thanks for the consideration, though. :-) -- sebas http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ release-team mailing list release-team@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/release-team
Re: Delaying 4.0?
On Wednesday 28 November 2007 14:30:29 Rex Dieter wrote: > Andras Mantia wrote: > > On Wednesday 28 November 2007, Rex Dieter wrote: > >> If this is absolutely the last slip, sure. Otherwise, the release > >> party scheduled for January 17 will look pretty silly. > > > > But doing a release just for the shake of the release party is equally > > silly. :) > > So, do *you* want to be the one to tell the event organizers that all > their hard work and effort to pull the event together is now in > jeopardy? Not I. > > Regardless, I'd argue they should be in the loop here in any discussions > that involve any further delays in the release schedule. (CC'ing > kde-promo?) Regardless of those "Wag the Dog"-like [1] issues, I *do* think that releasing in January is both achievable and makes sense. We've been over this more than once, but let me state it again: Not releasing doesn't help us. We need to get our code out to users and third party developers. Also, the desktop is in a really good state already, at least for my limited use case. I'm using KDE4 95% of the time, and I really feel comfortable with it. In fact, i would've expected far more crashes, instability and annoyances, even for a 4.0 release. I'm totally in love with applications like Kate, Dolphin, Konsole. And also konqi is catching up. Yesterday, I was totally thrilled when I logged in that konqueror kindly restored the website I had surfing earlier. So cool :-) And yes, by all means, let's not slip more than that. Shifting the release into January means that we'll *really* release then. And that in turn doesn't mean "let's release crap", but means "let's fix it until then" so we can release it. This is kind of our (I count myself as developer ;-)) responsibility towards those that put a lot of time, effort and love into creating appropriate PR for KDE 4.0. My personal plans for helping to make this happen is to keep a good overview of things, nagging people (who will hate me in return for that!) and trying to get KDE 4.0 releasable, also by trying to contribute technically (but that's somewhat limited, since I still only do babysteps at C++). After it's out, we'll all relax again and go back to fun-hacking, using and abusing our magnificent new libs and frameworks. Looking forward to that, btw. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wag_the_dog -- sebas http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ release-team mailing list release-team@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/release-team
Re: Delaying 4.0?
On 28.11.07 07:30:29, Rex Dieter wrote: > Andras Mantia wrote: > > On Wednesday 28 November 2007, Rex Dieter wrote: > >> If this is absolutely the last slip, sure. Otherwise, the release > >> party scheduled for January 17 will look pretty silly. > > > > But doing a release just for the shake of the release party is equally > > silly. :) > > So, do *you* want to be the one to tell the event organizers that all > their hard work and effort to pull the event together is now in > jeopardy? Not I. Huh? Why is their effort wasted if the release happens on Feb. 4th or some such? They can still pull off a release party. Its not like the party is going to be months before the release. IMHO its going to be much worse to do a release before the party, regardless of the state of KDE4. Reviews will rip KDE4 apart if the release is done that way and the released KDE 4.0.0 is not in a state thats worth a release. Andreas -- You'll be sorry... ___ release-team mailing list release-team@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/release-team
Re: Delaying 4.0?
On Wednesday 28 November 2007, Rex Dieter wrote: > So, do *you* want to be the one to tell the event organizers that all > their hard work and effort to pull the event together is now in > jeopardy? Not I. No, I don't, but this is shows clearly how bad is to do a time based release for a *new* product. Sure, we have to draw a line and say this is the release time, because otherwise we will never stop adding new features. Yet, if the release time is close and there are clear signs that the quality for the product is not up to our expectations, there shouldn't be any reason (like now the party) that will force us to release something broken. Of course, like others, I still hope KDE 4.0 will be in a good enough shape at that time, but if not, I'd rather not release it before the party. You can still celebrate the "upcoming KDE 4.0" release there. ;) Andras -- Quanta Plus developer - http://quanta.kdewebdev.org K Desktop Environment - http://www.kde.org signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ release-team mailing list release-team@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/release-team
Re: Delaying 4.0?
Andras Mantia wrote: > On Wednesday 28 November 2007, Rex Dieter wrote: >> If this is absolutely the last slip, sure. Otherwise, the release >> party scheduled for January 17 will look pretty silly. > > But doing a release just for the shake of the release party is equally > silly. :) So, do *you* want to be the one to tell the event organizers that all their hard work and effort to pull the event together is now in jeopardy? Not I. Regardless, I'd argue they should be in the loop here in any discussions that involve any further delays in the release schedule. (CC'ing kde-promo?) -- Rex ___ release-team mailing list release-team@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/release-team
Re: Delaying 4.0?
On Wednesday 28 November 2007, Rex Dieter wrote: > If this is absolutely the last slip, sure. Otherwise, the release > party scheduled for January 17 will look pretty silly. But doing a release just for the shake of the release party is equally silly. :) Andras -- Quanta Plus developer - http://quanta.kdewebdev.org K Desktop Environment - http://www.kde.org signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ release-team mailing list release-team@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/release-team
Re: Delaying 4.0?
On Wednesday 28 November 2007, Rex Dieter wrote: > Sebastian Kuegler wrote: > > Our current schedule says that we'll be tagging 4.0 coming week. I propose > > shifting the release into January and instead doing -rc2 next. That gives > > us > > one more month for getting rid of the showstoppers that are still there, > > and > > also for polishing the user experience, artwork and translations. > > > > Maybe tagging on Friday, 4 January, releasing on Thursday, 11? > > If this is absolutely the last slip, sure. Otherwise, the release party > scheduled for January 17 will look pretty silly. Well I always said it was silly to plan a release party in advance :-P -- David Faure, [EMAIL PROTECTED], sponsored by Trolltech to work on KDE, Konqueror (http://www.konqueror.org), and KOffice (http://www.koffice.org). ___ release-team mailing list release-team@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/release-team
Re: Delaying 4.0?
Sebastian Kuegler wrote: > Our current schedule says that we'll be tagging 4.0 coming week. I propose > shifting the release into January and instead doing -rc2 next. That gives us > one more month for getting rid of the showstoppers that are still there, and > also for polishing the user experience, artwork and translations. > > Maybe tagging on Friday, 4 January, releasing on Thursday, 11? If this is absolutely the last slip, sure. Otherwise, the release party scheduled for January 17 will look pretty silly. -- Rex ___ release-team mailing list release-team@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/release-team
Re: Delaying 4.0?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Nov 27, 2007, at 4:57 PM, Sebastian Kuegler wrote: > Our current schedule says that we'll be tagging 4.0 coming week. I > propose > shifting the release into January and instead doing -rc2 next. That > gives us > one more month for getting rid of the showstoppers that are still > there, and > also for polishing the user experience, artwork and translations. > > Maybe tagging on Friday, 4 January, releasing on Thursday, 11? > > That could go along with last-minute BIC changes that make a stable > 4.0 > considerably easier. (That's mostly kconfig and kjob?) > > Opinions? +1 - -- Matt -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQFHTOqbA6Vv5rghv0cRAh2tAJ9r5/RcqY7ovc0LVwQM517d8nR0vwCdH2Fz aT2hEYq01aCWW9TB3DXDOQ4= =G3IB -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ release-team mailing list release-team@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/release-team
Re: Delaying 4.0?
I'm up for this. I know people are eager to get it out of the door, but I'm still fixing crashes in dolphin/konqueror etc. I don't think another month will kill us. (Although what about the release party?) John ___ release-team mailing list release-team@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/release-team
