Re: [SMW-devel] SMW roadmap: how to get new items on it

2011-02-24 Thread Lydia Pintscher 
On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 21:56, Yaron Koren  wrote:
> Hi,
> Of course, there already is a place to make feature requests and get
> community votes: Bugzilla (http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org), which is meant to
> hold feature requests as well as bug reports, and which has a (little-known)
> voting feature.
> I think the ideal place for that kind of discussion, though, is via the
> mailing lists - semediawiki-user or this one, depending on the feature. Then
> you can really get in-depth input, and try to reach some sort of consensus
> about what makes sense. There have been numerous discussions about SMW
> features on the mailing lists over the years, so this is already basically
> the default place for it.

The problem with bugzilla is that it is horrible for feature requests
tbh. It starts with the fact that descriptions can't be edited and
refined.


Cheers
Lydia

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Re: [SMW-devel] SMW roadmap: how to get new items on it

2011-02-24 Thread Lydia Pintscher 
On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 20:29, Jeroen De Dauw  wrote:
> Hey,
>
> Following the recent discussions about the roadmap, I'm asking myself if
> there is no need for a process to get new items on it. I have several idea's
> that I think would be nice to implement, but not maybe not everyone agrees
> they should be. I think ideally there should be some place to request
> features with something that allows the community to categorize these by
> demand. And then a mechanism to check if the features with high demand make
> sense to put on the roadmap, and find out where to best put them.
>
> Some people might think this is overkill since there is very little
> community involvement with these things right now, but I think this is in
> part caused by the current way of doing things itself. Right now I can
> either create a page somewhere with a list of stuff I want to have
> implemented, that no one will ever seriously look at, or just place things
> directly onto the roadmap.
>
> I'm not sure what would be a good approach here, but it's probably a good
> idea to have a look at how other communities are managing this. I'd be very
> interested in other peoples thoughts (and suggestions) on this.

Thanks for bringing this up, Jeroen. I completely agree.
I'm working on this for Amarok and Halo for my thesis. Would be great
to hear your feedback on what I have so far and see if it applicable
for SMW. Should we have a short chat tomorrow?


Cheers
Lydia

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- - -
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Re: [SMW-devel] SMW roadmap: how to get new items on it

2011-02-24 Thread Stephan Gambke 
Hi Jeroen,

> I'm not sure what would be a good approach here, but it's probably a
> good idea to have a look at how other communities are managing this. I'd
> be very interested in other peoples thoughts (and suggestions) on this.

I am with you on this one. And it is definitely not an overkill, IMHO at
least

In fact I just recently started to build a little wiki (semantic, of
course :) ) for myself [0] for exactly this purpose as I too have some
ideas that need documentation and organization. I do not know if this
would be a way forward for this (or any) community.

The difference between the wiki and bugzilla or the mailing list
probably is, that I can use it to develop the ideas, work them into real
concepts, then query and sort them where on the mailing list something
comes up, is discussed, opinion is heaped upon opinion and then
everything just vanishes into the archives where it is then really
painful to retrieve it, let alone get an overview about anything.

Stephan


[0] Nothing much in it yet, really just freshly installed, but here you
are: http://wiki.foxtrott.de/ideas

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Re: [SMW-devel] SMW roadmap: how to get new items on it

2011-02-24 Thread Yaron Koren 
Hi,

Of course, there already is a place to make feature requests and get
community votes: Bugzilla (http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org), which is meant to
hold feature requests as well as bug reports, and which has a (little-known)
voting feature.

I think the ideal place for that kind of discussion, though, is via the
mailing lists - semediawiki-user or this one, depending on the feature. Then
you can really get in-depth input, and try to reach some sort of consensus
about what makes sense. There have been numerous discussions about SMW
features on the mailing lists over the years, so this is already basically
the default place for it.

-Yaron

On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Jeroen De Dauw wrote:

> Hey,
>
> Following the recent discussions about the roadmap, I'm asking myself if
> there is no need for a process to get new items on it. I have several idea's
> that I think would be nice to implement, but not maybe not everyone agrees
> they should be. I think ideally there should be some place to request
> features with something that allows the community to categorize these by
> demand. And then a mechanism to check if the features with high demand make
> sense to put on the roadmap, and find out where to best put them.
>
> Some people might think this is overkill since there is very little
> community involvement with these things right now, but I think this is in
> part caused by the current way of doing things itself. Right now I can
> either create a page somewhere with a list of stuff I want to have
> implemented, that no one will ever seriously look at, or just place things
> directly onto the roadmap.
>
> I'm not sure what would be a good approach here, but it's probably a good
> idea to have a look at how other communities are managing this. I'd be very
> interested in other peoples thoughts (and suggestions) on this.
>
> Cheers
>
> --
> Jeroen De Dauw
> http://www.bn2vs.com
> Don't panic. Don't be evil.
> --
>
>
> --
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> Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT
> data
> generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical,
> virtual
> or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business
> insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel
>
>


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[SMW-devel] SMW roadmap: how to get new items on it

2011-02-24 Thread Jeroen De Dauw 
Hey,

Following the recent discussions about the roadmap, I'm asking myself if
there is no need for a process to get new items on it. I have several idea's
that I think would be nice to implement, but not maybe not everyone agrees
they should be. I think ideally there should be some place to request
features with something that allows the community to categorize these by
demand. And then a mechanism to check if the features with high demand make
sense to put on the roadmap, and find out where to best put them.

Some people might think this is overkill since there is very little
community involvement with these things right now, but I think this is in
part caused by the current way of doing things itself. Right now I can
either create a page somewhere with a list of stuff I want to have
implemented, that no one will ever seriously look at, or just place things
directly onto the roadmap.

I'm not sure what would be a good approach here, but it's probably a good
idea to have a look at how other communities are managing this. I'd be very
interested in other peoples thoughts (and suggestions) on this.

Cheers

--
Jeroen De Dauw
http://www.bn2vs.com
Don't panic. Don't be evil.
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Re: [SMW-devel] documentation, entry points, interface classes

2011-02-24 Thread Markus Krötzsch 
On 24/02/2011 09:41, Yury Katkov wrote:
> Hello everyone!
>
> I'm trying to make Semantic MediaWiki extension and observing the
> documentation. I checked the Programmer Guide [1] and found that only
> the Doxygen documentation is currently available. Here are some questions:
>
> 1)  Are there any very small example extensions available,  whether or
> not some tutorials exist?
> 2) What are the main entry points to the code? For example, how can I
> add a numeric property Age with value 27 to the page User:Paul? Should I
> use SMWDataValueFactory? Or another example: what classes are to be used
> when I want to make an #ask query in my PHP code?
> 3) What classes are interfaces for extension developers and what classes
> belongs to the SMW core and should not be used by us?
>
> Hopefully after figuring out the answers to these questions I will able
> to improve the current documentation and it will make the life of other
> newbie extension developers easier.

Hi Yury,

by a happy coincidence I have just realized that we are lacking a good 
starting point for understanding SMW's architecture, and I have started 
to write a suitable documentation [1]. It is still incomplete, but I 
hope I can add further information within the next week.

I agree that this is important to have, not only for helping people to 
get started but also to reduce the effort we have in aligning 
contributions with what we intend SMW to be. PHP is not very good for 
communicating architecture through code alone ;-)

I also second your call for examples but there are so many ways in which 
to extend SMW that it is hard to come up with example code that is of 
general interest. Maybe we could build a collection of LocalSettings.php 
code snippets that show how some functions can be extended (e.g. how to 
register a new datatype, how to add a sidebar item that shows a property 
value for the given page, etc.)

Regards

Markus

[1] http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Architecture_guide#

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Re: [SMW-devel] SMW on large sites [Was: Roadmaps and getting and keeping devs]

2011-02-24 Thread Krzysztof Krzyżaniak 
On 23.02.2011 19:17, Yaron Koren wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I agree that it's great to hear from Wikia, and also great to know that
> Wikia is willing to put in some development time and effort to help with
> SMW. A few thoughts:
>
> - Wikia has already contributed somewhat to improving performance - I've
> been talking for a while to Tim Quievryn (who was at the Boston SMWCon
> last year), and his feedback helped lead to the faster handling of red
> links in Semantic Forms that was added in version 2.0.8.
>
> - Semantic Drilldown might actually be contributing to DB writes - it
> creates a temporary database table on every hit to Special:BrowseData.
> (I don't know if temporary tables get counted.)

Yes, creating tables is writting in our case.


> - This might not be the right place to discuss the specifics of the "SMW
> light" initiative, but it's my personal belief that the best approach to
> it is to do the triple-store integration, [1] so that SMW can use an RDF
> triple-store directly to store its data, rather than trying to improve
> or limit SMW's queries. It would theoretically speed up queries, but,
> more importantly, even if it didn't, it would basically eliminate SMW's
> impact on the wiki's database. That's just my personal opinion, though -
> I'm not involved in either of those projects.
>
> [1] http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/SPARQL_and_RDF_stores_for_SMW
>
> -Yaron
>
>
> 2011/2/23 Markus Krötzsch  >
>
> [Making this into a new thread]
>
> Hi Krzysztof,
>
> I was already wondering when I would hear from Wikia ...
>
> As you have noticed, running SMW and extensions on large sites (large in
> terms of content, or in terms of users) has special requirements.
> Typically, we suggest to use more conservative settings for querying, so
> that long and difficult queries do not occur. Similarly, some SMW
> extensions have not been developed for large sites, and can be
> problematic in their own right. But your users obviously want to keep
> the features that they already have, so we need to find better ways of
> addressing your problem.
>
> But first we need to separate concerns a little bit. You mention the
> following distinct problems:
>
> (1) Too many DB writes (about 60% in total)
>
> (2) Too many slow queries (about 90% from SMW)
>
> Moreover, your problem is not caused by SMW alone but by a number of
> SMW-related extensions. So there will be multiple issues that need
> addressing to fix this, and maybe even in multiple extensions.
>
> Let us first see how big the impact of the extensions you mention could
> be. Semantic Forms mainly leads to some additional reads (apparently no
> problem for you); the total number could possibly be reduced. It may
> also have some effect on query activity if certain autocompletion
> features are used. But otherwise I think it is unlikely to be the root
> of the problem. Semantic Drilldown might be more of a problem regarding
> complex queries. But it uses its own SQL queries, so it should be
> possible to find out how much of (2) comes from this extension. Semantic
> Drilldown should not contribute to (1).
>
> Are there any other extensions that use SMW on your site?
>
> Regarding SMW, I have some concrete ideas on what could be done for (1)
> and (2) but this will need more careful consideration first. I am
> grateful if you can help to track down the cause of the problem, but I
> am afraid that the changes in SMW core will still need to be done or at
> least reviewed carefully by myself -- which makes me kind of a
> bottleneck for the SMW part of your problem. I need to think about the
> required work a little further before I can promise anything.
>
> Regards,
>
> Markus
>
>
> On 22/02/2011 22:38, Krzysztof Krzyżaniak wrote:
>  > I think it's would be right place to jump in.
>  >
>  > Hello, my name is Krzysztof Krzyżaniak a.k.a. eloy and I work for
> Wikia
>  > Inc as backend team leader. We are probably (correct me if I am
> wrong)
>  > on of the biggest user of Semantic Mediawiki suite. We currently have
>  > enabled it on about 100 wikis for example on
> familypedia.wikia.com  or
>  > yugioh.wikia.com  or www.wowwiki.com
>  (but also on wikis which you
>  > probably don't suspect for SMW interest like glee.wikia.com
>  or
>  > madmen.wikia.com ). We would like to
> expand existence of SMW on Wikia
>  > (for example lyrics would love it) but currently we cannot afford it
>  > because of performance reasons. For example, our first cluster
> contains
>  > about 30.000 wikis, mostly biggest ones. About 60% of writes in
>  > databases came from SMW extensions (SemanticMedi

[SMW-devel] documentation, entry points, interface classes

2011-02-24 Thread Yury Katkov 
Hello everyone!

I'm trying to make Semantic MediaWiki extension and observing the
documentation. I checked the Programmer Guide [1] and found that only the
Doxygen documentation is currently available. Here are some questions:

1)  Are there any very small example extensions available,  whether or not
some tutorials exist?
2) What are the main entry points to the code? For example, how can I add a
numeric property Age with value 27 to the page User:Paul? Should I use
SMWDataValueFactory? Or another example: what classes are to be used when I
want to make an #ask query in my PHP code?
3) What classes are interfaces for extension developers and what classes
belongs to the SMW core and should not be used by us?

Hopefully after figuring out the answers to these questions I will able to
improve the current documentation and it will make the life of other newbie
extension developers easier.

[1] http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Programmer's_guide_to_SMW

Sincerely yours,

Yury V. Katkov
Laboratory of intelligent systems
of the Saint-Petersburg National University of Information Technologies,
Mechanics and Optics, Russia
http://ailab.ifmo.ru
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