Re: Climax gears was VPC Drawings
Harry wrote:- > One of the two independant articles has a full 1-1/2 pages of > complex math formulae to be solved for the various weensy geometrical bits. It's all in the book - how else would I be able to work out the dimensions for a set of gears with a totally different ratio and size? Mike
RE: Climax gears was VPC Drawings
At 09:06 AM 8/15/03 -0700, you wrote: >I have been looking for Kozo's second part of his Climax gears article >in the August 1983 Live Steam for years. I will check out the new >printing of his book. Harley, Unfortunately I have only the articles as they originally appeared in LSM so I don't know if all the seperate article material is included in the books. One of the two independant articles has a full 1-1/2 pages of complex math formulae to be solved for the various weensy geometrical bits. Regards, Harry
RE: Climax gears was VPC Drawings
Harry, I have been looking for Kozo's second part of his Climax gears article in the August 1983 Live Steam for years. I will check out the new printing of his book. In the power transmission industry we called them off-set helicals and used them in place of worm drives when the ratio was low. They were quieter than bevel gears, although ran hotter. Regards Harley Kelsey Tel 604-688-2775 Fax (same) Cel 604-842-2442 email [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alison and Jim Gregg Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:12 PM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Re: Climax gears was VPC Drawings Harry and Mike. J.H.M. Gears in Tunbridge Wells UK do excellent "Skew Gears" These are a right angle drive made up of what looks like two coarse pitch multi-start worms meshing at right angles. Available in various ratios from 1:1 up to 20:1 and in various pitches and metals (Brass,M.S. and Stainless). Will drive either way. Are availablle L.H or R.H. if you mesh 2 of the same hand you get right angle drive, 2 of the opposite hand then you get parralell drive as skew gears =low noise and min backlash. I think I got that rightre which is right angle drive- operating from memeory. Note these are not spiral bevels but the shafts are above each other and can be used in any centre shaft geared loco . Way to go. The firm SHM is the old established company S.H.Muffett Gears. They are on the web, and do retail and take credit cards and are prompt on mail order. I'm a satisfied overseas customer. Jim Gregg. At 01:26 PM 8/14/03 -0500, you wrote: >At 10:09 PM 8/12/03, you wrote: > >I believe Kozo Hiraoka tells how to make the gears in his book on the > >Climax and it is back in print from Village Press Publications. > >Ian > >Ian and all, > There is a tendency to say "Kozo shows you how" thus implying > that he's >devised a simple technique which will allow anyone to do it easily, but >that's not always the case. I've had a look at the Climax series to >refresh my memory and found two additional articles on gear cutting which >appeared in the July and August 1983 issues of Live Steam, also by Kozo. >These were apart from the Climax articles which discribed cutting skew >bevel gears. > All of these articles are superb and although he explains and > illustrates >it all clearly the complex geometry required to produce anything other than >simple spur gears can't be avoided. The part that will cause most Ga1 >people problems is that as size decreases the relative effect of errors (in >geometry, dimensions, tolerances, etc) on the mechanism, and the skill and >precision needed to counteract these effects, increases. For instance the >cutters Kozo discribes have complex geometry, some critically angled or >radiused segments may be only .020" long, and that's in 3/4" scale. The >increased potential for error causes the job to become more difficult, >maybe only slightly, but more difficult just the same and many of us are >pushing our skills and tooling to their limits as it is. > On the other hand, we are helped by having greatly reduced > dynamic forces >so that a small error in geometry or misalignment will still operate just >fine and won't cause the components, such as a gear set, to chew or flog >itself to bits in operation. I'd like to see an attempt at skew bevel >gears in Ga1 a la Kozo but I'm afraid that's not on the horizon for me. > >Regards, >Harry >
Re: Climax gears was VPC Drawings
At 02:12 PM 8/15/03 +0800, you wrote: >The firm SHM is the old established company S.H.Muffett Gears. >Jim Gregg. I thought they bit the dust years ago, along with A. Kellett. Regards, Harry
Re: Climax gears was VPC Drawings
Jim:- The gears used on the Climax are not spiral bevels, but skew bevels. As I understand it a spiral bevel, as usually sold, is similar to the well known straight bevel where the shafts meet at a point, but has spirally cut teeth to give a greater contact area and greater smoothness. A skew bevel is used where the shafts have to cross each other. The "skew" gears you describe from Muffetts sound like what I've always called helical gears and do exactly what you say they do. Although they could be used on a model Climax (4 pairs of one hand and one of the other to give the correct crankshaft rotation) they would not be a correct representation of the gears on the full sized loco. (Neither would Kozo's, if you want to be pedantic about it, but they're close.) A helical gearset is identical, as far as I can see, to a very low ratio worm and wheel. It was used in the '30s on the geared Avonside locos (a British interpretation of the Heisler design), where, as I recall, the ratio was about 1:2 and makers actually referred to it as a worm gear. I'm admit that I'm open to correction - I'm no expert, just trying to find a path through the maze. Mike
Re: Climax gears was VPC Drawings
Harry and Mike. J.H.M. Gears in Tunbridge Wells UK do excellent "Skew Gears" These are a right angle drive made up of what looks like two coarse pitch multi-start worms meshing at right angles. Available in various ratios from 1:1 up to 20:1 and in various pitches and metals (Brass,M.S. and Stainless). Will drive either way. Are availablle L.H or R.H. if you mesh 2 of the same hand you get right angle drive, 2 of the opposite hand then you get parralell drive as skew gears =low noise and min backlash. I think I got that rightre which is right angle drive- operating from memeory. Note these are not spiral bevels but the shafts are above each other and can be used in any centre shaft geared loco . Way to go. The firm SHM is the old established company S.H.Muffett Gears. They are on the web, and do retail and take credit cards and are prompt on mail order. I'm a satisfied overseas customer. Jim Gregg. At 01:26 PM 8/14/03 -0500, you wrote: At 10:09 PM 8/12/03, you wrote: >I believe Kozo Hiraoka tells how to make the gears in his book on the >Climax and it is back in print from Village Press Publications. >Ian Ian and all, There is a tendency to say "Kozo shows you how" thus implying that he's devised a simple technique which will allow anyone to do it easily, but that's not always the case. I've had a look at the Climax series to refresh my memory and found two additional articles on gear cutting which appeared in the July and August 1983 issues of Live Steam, also by Kozo. These were apart from the Climax articles which discribed cutting skew bevel gears. All of these articles are superb and although he explains and illustrates it all clearly the complex geometry required to produce anything other than simple spur gears can't be avoided. The part that will cause most Ga1 people problems is that as size decreases the relative effect of errors (in geometry, dimensions, tolerances, etc) on the mechanism, and the skill and precision needed to counteract these effects, increases. For instance the cutters Kozo discribes have complex geometry, some critically angled or radiused segments may be only .020" long, and that's in 3/4" scale. The increased potential for error causes the job to become more difficult, maybe only slightly, but more difficult just the same and many of us are pushing our skills and tooling to their limits as it is. On the other hand, we are helped by having greatly reduced dynamic forces so that a small error in geometry or misalignment will still operate just fine and won't cause the components, such as a gear set, to chew or flog itself to bits in operation. I'd like to see an attempt at skew bevel gears in Ga1 a la Kozo but I'm afraid that's not on the horizon for me. Regards, Harry
Re: VPC Drawings/Shay engine
Peter McCabe re-engined a Steamlines Shay by using drawings scaled from Kozo Hiraoka's book as a basis. I know 'cos I have the lokey - all in bits at the moment awaiting correction of all the other Tom Cooper infelicities. Art Walker - Original Message - From: "Terry Griner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 12:03 PM Subject: Re: VPC Drawings Harry, If you ever get around to doing drawings for a small two cylinder Shay, I'd like to get a copy. Terry Griner Columbus Ohio USA >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/11/2003 10:44:12 PM >>> At 10:13 PM 8/11/03 -0400, you wrote: >Drawings arrived in fine shape today >Got any Vest Pocket SHAY drawings??? No . . . not yet. hw
Re: VPC Drawings
At 09:27 AM 8/12/03 -0400, you wrote: >Having had a chance to look over the Vest Pocket Climax drawings now, >They are "Beautiful!" >Thanks >Michael Michael, Thank you for the kind remarks. Even though the original project was based upon the use of Mel Ridley's castings I tried to insure that enough visual and dimensional information was given so that a clever lad, properly equipped, and with a little experience, could build the locomotive from scratch from these drawrings. A minor difficulty for U.S. builders would be in the boiler, where UK std tube sizes were used, but for all builders the gears, which are not to my knowledge commercially made, would probably cause the average amatuer machinist quit a bit of distress. I know they would me. Regards, Harry
Re: Re: VPC Drawings/Shay engine
More concerned that a visit to Ernie & Co is only 3 days away. Who was Brit #1?? Art - Original Message - From: "Bruce Gathman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 10:39 PM Subject: Re: Re: VPC Drawings/Shay engine Arthur, Shay Days is only about 11 months away. Better get hopping! You can be the second to attend from GB. Bruce Gathman On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:33:39 +0100, "mart.towers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Peter McCabe re-engined a Steamlines Shay by using drawings scaled from Kozo >Hiraoka's book as a basis. >I know 'cos I have the lokey - all in bits at the moment awaiting correction >of all the other Tom Cooper infelicities. > >Art Walker > >- Original Message - >From: "Terry Griner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 12:03 PM >Subject: Re: VPC Drawings > > >Harry, > If you ever get around to doing drawings for a small two cylinder Shay, >I'd like to get a copy. >Terry Griner >Columbus Ohio USA > >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/11/2003 10:44:12 PM >>> >At 10:13 PM 8/11/03 -0400, you wrote: >>Drawings arrived in fine shape today >>Got any Vest Pocket SHAY drawings??? > > No . . . not yet. >hw > > > > The links provided below are ways to donate to a cause or causes for free. www.bigcats.care2.com www.breastcancer.care2.com www.oceans.care2.com www.pets.care2.com www.primates.care2.com www.rainforest.care2.com www.theanimalrescuesite.com www.thebreastcancersite.com www.thechildhealthsite.com www.thehungersite.com www.therainforestsite.com
Re: VPC Drawings
At 10:13 PM 8/11/03 -0400, you wrote: >Drawings arrived in fine shape today >Got any Vest Pocket SHAY drawings??? No . . . not yet. hw
Re: VPC Drawings
Drawings arrived in fine shape today THANKS Got any Vest Pocket SHAY drawings??? Thanks Michale Floriduh USA Iron (Horse) Nut - Original Message - From: "Harry Wade" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 4:00 PM Subject: VPC Drawings > Michael, > The drawings went out today. > > > Regards, > Harry >
Re: Re: Re: VPC Drawings/Shay engine
Alan Walker. Is he your cousin or something like that? Bruce On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:29:02 +0100, "mart.towers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >More concerned that a visit to Ernie & Co is only 3 days away. >Who was Brit #1?? > >Art >- Original Message - >From: "Bruce Gathman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 10:39 PM >Subject: Re: Re: VPC Drawings/Shay engine > > >Arthur, > >Shay Days is only about 11 months away. Better get hopping! >You can be the second to attend from GB. > >Bruce Gathman > >On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:33:39 +0100, "mart.towers" ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>Peter McCabe re-engined a Steamlines Shay by using drawings scaled from >Kozo >>Hiraoka's book as a basis. >>I know 'cos I have the lokey - all in bits at the moment awaiting >correction >>of all the other Tom Cooper infelicities. >> >>Art Walker >> >>----- Original Message - >>From: "Terry Griner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 12:03 PM >>Subject: Re: VPC Drawings >> >> >>Harry, >> If you ever get around to doing drawings for a small two cylinder Shay, >>I'd like to get a copy. >>Terry Griner >>Columbus Ohio USA >> >>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/11/2003 10:44:12 PM >>> >>At 10:13 PM 8/11/03 -0400, you wrote: >>>Drawings arrived in fine shape today >>>Got any Vest Pocket SHAY drawings??? >> >> No . . . not yet. >>hw >> >> >> >> > > >The links provided below are ways to >donate to a cause or causes for free. > >www.bigcats.care2.com >www.breastcancer.care2.com >www.oceans.care2.com >www.pets.care2.com >www.primates.care2.com >www.rainforest.care2.com >www.theanimalrescuesite.com >www.thebreastcancersite.com >www.thechildhealthsite.com >www.thehungersite.com >www.therainforestsite.com > > The links provided below are ways to donate to a cause or causes for free. www.bigcats.care2.com www.breastcancer.care2.com www.oceans.care2.com www.pets.care2.com www.primates.care2.com www.rainforest.care2.com www.theanimalrescuesite.com www.thebreastcancersite.com www.thechildhealthsite.com www.thehungersite.com www.therainforestsite.com
Re: VPC Drawings
Having had a chance to look over the Vest Pocket Climax drawings now, They are "Beautiful!" Thanks Michael Florida USA Iron nut - Original Message - From: "Harry Wade" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 4:00 PM Subject: VPC Drawings
Re: VPC Drawings
At 09:16 AM 8/12/03 -0500, you wrote: but for all builders >the gears, which are not to my knowledge commercially made, would probably >cause the average amatuer machinist quit a bit of distress. I know they >would me. > >Regards, >Harry Hi all I believe Kozo Hiraoka tells how to make the gears in his book on the Climax and it is back in print from Village Press Publications. Ian
Re: Climax gears was VPC Drawings
Harry wrote:- > I'd like to see an attempt at skew bevel > gears in Ga1 a la Kozo but I'm afraid that's not on the horizon for me. Agreed, it's not easy, but today I cut the first of several hundred skew bevel gears according to Kozo (plus a certain amount of experimentation.) Tomorrow, I have the task of cutting a pinion to fit. These are for a gauge#1 15mm scale (1:20.3 ) 18T Climax and are 1:8 ratio LH & RH 7/8" and 1/2" diameter. Incidentally, Kozo's gears are non-prototypical in that they are both skewed. The original Climax gears had a straight pinion on the trucks and a *very* skewed gear to match. The cross shaft gears were 1:1, both skewed. Mike
Re: Re: VPC Drawings/Shay engine
Arthur, Shay Days is only about 11 months away. Better get hopping! You can be the second to attend from GB. Bruce Gathman On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:33:39 +0100, "mart.towers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Peter McCabe re-engined a Steamlines Shay by using drawings scaled from Kozo >Hiraoka's book as a basis. >I know 'cos I have the lokey - all in bits at the moment awaiting correction >of all the other Tom Cooper infelicities. > >Art Walker > >- Original Message - >From: "Terry Griner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 12:03 PM >Subject: Re: VPC Drawings > > >Harry, > If you ever get around to doing drawings for a small two cylinder Shay, >I'd like to get a copy. >Terry Griner >Columbus Ohio USA > >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/11/2003 10:44:12 PM >>> >At 10:13 PM 8/11/03 -0400, you wrote: >>Drawings arrived in fine shape today >>Got any Vest Pocket SHAY drawings??? > > No . . . not yet. >hw > > > > The links provided below are ways to donate to a cause or causes for free. www.bigcats.care2.com www.breastcancer.care2.com www.oceans.care2.com www.pets.care2.com www.primates.care2.com www.rainforest.care2.com www.theanimalrescuesite.com www.thebreastcancersite.com www.thechildhealthsite.com www.thehungersite.com www.therainforestsite.com
VPC Drawings
Michael, The drawings went out today. Regards, Harry
Climax gears was VPC Drawings
At 10:09 PM 8/12/03, you wrote: >I believe Kozo Hiraoka tells how to make the gears in his book on the >Climax and it is back in print from Village Press Publications. >Ian Ian and all, There is a tendency to say "Kozo shows you how" thus implying that he's devised a simple technique which will allow anyone to do it easily, but that's not always the case. I've had a look at the Climax series to refresh my memory and found two additional articles on gear cutting which appeared in the July and August 1983 issues of Live Steam, also by Kozo. These were apart from the Climax articles which discribed cutting skew bevel gears. All of these articles are superb and although he explains and illustrates it all clearly the complex geometry required to produce anything other than simple spur gears can't be avoided. The part that will cause most Ga1 people problems is that as size decreases the relative effect of errors (in geometry, dimensions, tolerances, etc) on the mechanism, and the skill and precision needed to counteract these effects, increases. For instance the cutters Kozo discribes have complex geometry, some critically angled or radiused segments may be only .020" long, and that's in 3/4" scale. The increased potential for error causes the job to become more difficult, maybe only slightly, but more difficult just the same and many of us are pushing our skills and tooling to their limits as it is. On the other hand, we are helped by having greatly reduced dynamic forces so that a small error in geometry or misalignment will still operate just fine and won't cause the components, such as a gear set, to chew or flog itself to bits in operation. I'd like to see an attempt at skew bevel gears in Ga1 a la Kozo but I'm afraid that's not on the horizon for me. Regards, Harry
Re: VPC Drawings
Harry, If you ever get around to doing drawings for a small two cylinder Shay, I'd like to get a copy. Terry Griner Columbus Ohio USA >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/11/2003 10:44:12 PM >>> At 10:13 PM 8/11/03 -0400, you wrote: >Drawings arrived in fine shape today >Got any Vest Pocket SHAY drawings??? No . . . not yet. hw
