Re: [Biofuel] Olive branch
Legal Myths: The McDonald's Hot Coffee Case Thanks, Keith, for sharing this information. I have known about the McDonald's coffee case for a long time, but have never bothered to research the details. I agree that the procorporate, antihuman attitude of much of the United States today is appalling. That's why I don't participate in much of mainstream US society. I prefer to keep my transactions at a local, individual level. However, having read the facts of the McDonald's case that you offer, I have to admit that this seems like a clear case of consumers' rights trampling legitimate corporate rights. There is no way that anyone can convince me that a person is only 20% responsible for pouring steaming hot coffee on themselves in their own car. People do not need to be warned that hot coffee will burn you or that a Winnebago might go off the road if you leave the driver's seat at 70 mph. It is perfectly reasonable to assume a minimum level of intelligence of one's customers. The fact that previous burn cases had been settled for up to $500,000 proves nothing about McDonald's negligence. It speaks more to our insurance industry's penchant for settling rather than fighting a solid case. I've seen this personally through friends and family several times. The cases were cut and dried in favor of the defendant, but the insurance companies decided that it would be cheaper to settle than try the case, disregarding the black smudge this places on the defendants' reputations. Additionally, several of the other cases mentioned in Bob's post point out a problem with the US system that is unrelated to the corporate--human discussion. Three of the cases did not involve corporations: the man with the broken hand, the burglar stuck in the garage and the dog bit. In fact, the second-highest award went to the burglar. I guess I'm glad I don't have a garage door opener (or a garage door or garage for that matter). These cases make it clear it is not even safe to mind your own business because someone will come along and sue you anyway. While I don't support many corporate rights, I do think the US legal system needs to be reigned in. John ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Olive branch
There is no way that anyone can convince me that a person is only 20% responsible for pouring steaming hot coffee on themselves in their own car. She was a passenger, not the driver, cars are things that move, the passenger is not in control and cannot be expected to predict how and when the car will move, especially when pulling off, and McDonald's not only knew that, after so many previous cases, That is exactly my point. She knew that she was sitting in a car that was about to move and yet she chose to put steaming hot coffee in an open container between her legs. That is a blatant disregard for the consequences of her own actions. The only other person that I could see as even remotely responsible for her burns is the driver, her grandson. they also knew that their coffee was dangerously hot. And they had no explanation or excuse for what can only be termed negligence. People like hot coffee. They expect it to stay hot for a long time even when they add cold creamer to it. If I sell you a hammer and you use it to kill someone what is my responsibility? Hammers are just as dangerous as hot coffee. Their subsequent behaviour was callous and disgraceful. How can you call that legitimate corporate rights? The mere suggestion that McDonald's is responsible in any way for Stella's burns is disgraceful. The fact that they offered any payment at all is testament to their generosity. The case should have been thrown out the first day the judge saw it. Stella Liebeck was 79, an old woman, and she was seriously injured. Her age is irrelevant. She should have known better than to put hot coffee between her legs in an open container. If she was not competent to know better, her guardian should have been paying closer attention. I did not see anything in the facts of the case that indicated that McDonald's had been appointed to or accepted that position. Other casualties were children and infants, are you going to blame them too? Or blame their parents? Yes, I blame their parents in normal circumstances. So far, I have not seen anything that puts this or other such cases outside the range of normal. Why flail about like this when it's altogether obvious who's to blame? Exactly. And why did a jury award her anything? You present a poor case that ignores most of the explanation I posted. Which I guess is what all the spin and disinfo is intended to accomplish, as indeed it does. I read your entire post hoping to find something that implicated the defendant. All I found was reverse spin, no better then corporate spin. All non-hypnotised Americans should be fighting tort reform tooth and nail, for their own sakes and for their communities' and their country's future. And ours too, probably. IMHO. Attacking me does not change the facts of this particular case. While I agree with you and ciitzen.org about the value uncapped punitive damage awards in general, I don't agree that they should be applied blindly without regard to the truth. I don't see this as a black-and-white issue (what issue is black and white?). Corporations can be wrong and evil in general and it can still be wrong to hurt any particular corporation for false reasons. Doing so only hurts us and society in general. This whole brouhaha is a case in point. The fact that a jury would award damages for such disregard for one's own personal safety opened up a huge opportunity for the corporate spin doctors to drive another nail in the coffin of unlimited punitive damages. If the only cases awarded such large damages involved at least a modicum of responsibility on the part of the defendant, many fewer people would be taken in by the spin doctors. Additionally, while tort reform is generally understood to refer to limitations on litigation and damages, that is not where I see the problem with the US judicial system. The problem is much deeper and widespread. Tinkering with the fender is not the make the engine run any more smoothly. John ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Olive branch
john, maybe you need to participate a little more because in spite of your current practice you're doing a good job of sounding pretty pro-corporate/anti-human yourself. Any independent thinker will occasionally do so. The issues our society faces are not nearly as black and white as many people would like us to believe. the jury didn't find her 20% responsible for the spilling. they found that by doing the spilling, she was 20% liable for the damage that resulted. see the distinction? No, I don't see a distinction. The liability flows from the responsibility. If she is 99% responsible and the driver is 1% responsible, how does 80% of the liability land on the bystander? furthermore, she didn't just come along and sue them anyway. and despite the appreciation you express for keith's post, it souods as though you missed the point entirely, which is that you have to take the stellas with a grain of salt. instead you seem to agree with their bogus purpose, and as though to defend them cite several of their own highlighted cases (not going to bother explaining the logical flaw in *that*), apparently without doing any independent checking of the facts behind any of those cases. I don't need to do any independent checking of those particular cases. They could be completely fabricated for all I care. They are merely symbolic of the issue I wanted to bring up. I have experienced that issue directly through my friends and family, but it is easier to discuss the hypothetical cases already mentioned on this list than to go into the details of other cases. John ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Quackbuster Busted in Court
Keith wrote: What's the difference? John Morris said it's a matter of market supply and demand: If people demanded health, that same system would provide health. No it wouldn't, that's not on the table. What's missing from this glad view of the inevitable democratic outcome of market mechanisms is the billions of dollars spent very effectively on telling people what to demand and only providing options that are deemed profitable. I think you missed the point of what I was saying because we are in agreement on what you said later in your message. My point is not that the system is healthy or that capitalism is ever likely to provide a healthy system for the masses. My point was that the system is designed to make money, not health. However, I and my family and friends are living proof that one can have health in the midst of this unhealthy system. There is hope for the individual even if the masses are being destroyed. Where there is hope for the individual, there could be hope for the masses if the masses could become individuals. If the masses refused to be duped by those who promise health but deliver only bills and poisons, the shams would look elsewhere for an easy mark. Eventually, they would die of starvation. However, that is a hard road to travel. You don't really need to persuade doctors, they can be useful anyway, you can often get information you need from them, as well as some appropriate treatment, as long as it's you who's making the decisions and you're informed enough to do that. That is exactly my point. If we give up control and ask others to make the decisions for us, they will make decisions that are right for them, but not necessarily right for us. Alternative healthcare is available for those making their own choices, but it's still limited. It does constitute a real alternative but it's embattled and splintered as a result of being marginalised and underresourced, it's difficult to figure out what's useful and what's not. My view of alternative health care is not much more generous than my view of Western health care. There are plenty of people out there willing to sell you a handful of air. When using alternative health care, you still have to be informed; you still have to make the decisions. People have to take the responsibility themselves and most people don't like that. They're heavily encouraged not to like it. But it's the first step towards real health. Health education councils etc often say that too. I totally agree. John -- John Morris Editide Editing and Graphic Design 1350 VT Rte 232 Marshfield, VT 05658 888-259-8216 within the USA 802-426-2017 outside the USA 802-426-2017 fax http://www.editide.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Quackbuster Busted in Court
Is this a surprise? How many people do you know, reguardless of age that don't take at least one prescription drug a day? Me (39), all of my step children and their partners (20 to 32), most of my grandchildren, my father (72) and most of my friends. I know more people who don't than who do. I have never in my life taken any prescription medications despite the fact that both of my parents are family physicians. My point is not that health care in the US is anything like healthy, but that it is not forced on us. We do have a choice. If people make the choice to take, and even demand, the drugs, a system based on capitalism will provide those people with drugs. If people demanded health, that same system would provide health. For us, it is just us, everyone we know takes them. Doctors in this country tell people that what they eat makes no difference to their health. Diabetics are told that sugar intake has nothing to do with diabetes. Go figure. Some doctors do tell us that and other doctors focus heavily on diet, exercise, and environment. People who want to be allowed to eat anything and never exercise will seek out those doctors that meet their desire. People who truly want to achieve health without drugs can and do find the doctors that will travel that road with them. Seven months ago at 57, my wife was within weeks of a massive heart attack. She experienced some chest pains and went to the hospital. After a procedure to install a stent, she has been on three prescriptions. However, she is working towards addressing the issues (stress, blood pressure, weight, cholesterol) with diet, exercise, and environment. Although dubious about her ability to make the necessary changes without drugs, her cardiologist is very supportive of her trying. So far, she has reduced most of the prescriptions by half. John -- John Morris Editide Editing and Graphic Design 1350 VT Rte 232 Marshfield, VT 05658 888-259-8216 within the USA 802-426-2017 outside the USA 802-426-2017 fax http://www.editide.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Cars Burning Gas in the Drive for Power
This certainly agrees with my personal experience and analysis. In fact, I would go even further. My step-son bought a new 2004 Civic Hybrid in January 2004. The car is very nice. It comfortably seats four adults and the back seat is comfortable for my six-foot, 165-pound frame. However, he has found that it gets between 30 and 40 miles per gallon in his driving. That does not compare particularly favorably with the 35 to 45 my 1996 Civic gets (with over 200,000 miles on it) which also comfortably seats 4 adults. We supported him spending the extra money to get it at the time, but I'm feeling differently now. I don't see the Honda Insight as particularly green either. It's a two seater that gets 70 miles per gallon (according to the hype, which gave the Civic Hybrid close to 50 mpg). That works out to 140 person-miles per gallon at full capacity. As I mentioned, my five-seater 96 Civic really does get 40 mpg (with some tankfuls going as high as 50 mpg). That works out to about 200 person-miles per gallon at full capacity (with minor losses as a result of carrying that much weight). Even with only four people in the car, it gets better mileage than the fully loaded Insight. My wife and I almost never travel alone, so we just about always get better mileage (80 mpg) than the Insight would get with a single driver. I think the hybrid concept has tremendous potential. In fact, I think it could go much further in performance and safety, _while_ getting better mileage, than current IC-only designs. Four independent electric motors would give full-time, fully independent four-wheel drive with no differentials to mess up the delivery of all (or most) of the power to the one wheel that has traction. Distributing the battery pack out to all four wheels would reduce electrical losses and improve the weight distribution and thus safety of the car. Unfortunately, these first attempts are not going this route; they just tack an electric motor onto current designs. Given the wasteful nature of capitalism, I guess we will have to go through this phase to get to that place. John This article reports on the fact that most hybrids actually do not get much better mileage than standard cars. Manufacturers are using the electrical engines to improve performance rather than increase mileage; whereas improved mileage is the reason that these cars qualify for large tax credits. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/automobiles/17hybrid.html?ex=1279252800amp;en=ae427a90941e848damp;ei=5090amp;partner=rssuserlandamp;em c=rss ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Propane - ABio fuel?
I've seen posts from a methaneman on other lists. He seemed to have done a great deal of work with methane digesters. I'm intrigued, but I have not had time to pursue it yet. I have not been able to follow this much and I can't find the link to his web site any more. Good luck. John Hi Greg, all It's interesting you mention: Bio Methane generally has to be scrubbed of CO2 and H2S, before it is useable in any great amount, but, once the H2S and CO2 have been removed, Bio Methane can be used just like NG (at lower pressure unless you use a compressor to raise the pressure). I've started gathering info on Biogas, not for where we are now but for our planned future move, but I've not seen anything regarding scrubbing the gas. I had wondered about the need for it. I presume the scrubbing would be done using absorbent chemicals (trying really hard to remember my inorganic chemistry but it seems too long ago now!!! Lol) I'd like to know if there are any innovative solutions to the problem out there. Would water vapour in the gas cause problems should it also be removed? Or is all this not needed when using it as a single domestic supply? I'd be interested in any comments. Best regards to all Malcolm ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Propane - ABio fuel?
As I understand it, methane (which can be produced from rotting waste) can be burned in most propane appliances with the appropriate slight modifications. Is propane a Bio fuel, can it be created from bio sources? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Homemade Shredder was: Compost Update
When I was growing up, I remember my father collecting large quantities of leaves for his garden each fall. He did not bother composting them; he simply tilled them into the garden in the fall or spring along with his regular tilling. I think he now has one of those round bins for compost and puts almost everything into it. He turns it by hand regularly and he says that the compost stays warm and active through most of his southern New Hampshire winter. Although I know that he has a chipper shredder, I don't know if he shreds the leaves or not. John Anyone have any suggestions for a homemade shredder for yard waste. I have used my lawn mower but, the blade gets really beat up. Using the mower can also be quite a struggle if I don't get to it before the rain does. I have a ton of oak leaves and they, alone, take a really long time to break down. The compost that I'm getting seems very healthy but, I can't out-pace the trees. Thanks in advance... Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Vegetable Motor Oil (was: maximum MPG)
I was curious about using vegetable oil as the engine lubricant as well. Apparently it has been looked at and the lubricity is great but the oil breaks down quickly at high temperatures. There are good vegetable oil engine lubricants, especially in Europe. Try these: http://www.sterlinggrade.com http://www.renewablelube.com http://www.gemtek.com/ http://www.terresolve.com/ http://www.soypower.net/ http://www.lubegard.com/ http://www.renewableoil.com/ Thanks for the links, Keith. I've also been thinking about replacements for petroleum-based motor oil lately. I maintain the cars for a small intentional community (13 people, 4 families). We currently put about 70,000 miles on our three cars each year. Two years ago, I switched one of them to synthetic oil with a drain interval of 25,000 miles or 1 year. (I'm actually doing 20,000.) The main advantage this has for me is that I save time changing the oil: once instead of four times in 20,000 miles. I spend slightly more on the oil, but the time savings easily makes that up. I've been very happy with the results and have recently made the switch with our second car and plan to switch the last car in the next few weeks. As I understand it, the base stock for synthetic oil could come from rotting vegetation. However, I have not found anything that indicates that it actually does. My impression is that they use the lightest gases from the petroleum refining process and work from there. Thus, while I have cut my use of petroleum motor oil to a quarter of what it was (and gained the performance advantages), I have not stopped using it entirely. Just the other day, I spent some time looking for a plant-based motor oil. The only one I came up with was Agro Management Group (http://www.agromgt.com/). They seem to have a 4-cycle motor oil, but they don't sell it on their web site. I have not gotten a response to my query. However, they recommend a 3,000-mile drain interval. From a time and materials point of view, they could be giving it away for free and it would still cost me twice as much to use that product as it costs me to use the synthetic oil because I would be taking the time to change the oil six to eight times as often. Additionally, while they emphasize the biodegradability of the product, I don't think I would be pouring it on my garden when I'm done with it. No matter what is in it when I put it in my engine, there will be toxic contaminants in it when I take it out because the engine will add small amounts of heavy metals from wear, leftover petroleum oil, blow by, other lubricants, etc. This means I still have to dispose of it responsibly, Also, I'd be getting rid of six to eight times as much of the stuff with all of the associated environmental costs of producing and delivering the product to my door. That does not seem like the environmentally sound choice. It seems to me that the vegetable-based products would have to come close to rivaling the change interval I'm getting now before I would want to switch for environmental or lifecycle cost reasons. I looked at the web sites mentioned above, but none seem to have a motor oil ready for 4-cycle engines. One (http://www.soypower.net/) seems to have a hydraulic oil (for my backhoe) available, but not through the web site. John ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [biofuel] Fuel Saver Pro
Hi Leo, I tried what must be a similar product a few years ago on my '96 Honda Civic CX with about 150,000 miles on it at the time. After about six months and 15,000 miles I found no change in mileage or power. The seller offered a money back if I was not satisfied, but was nowhere to be found by the time I had finished my tests. I found better improvement in mileage by switching from conventional to synthetic motor oil. Nine months after I switched to Amsoil, I took a trip from Vermont to Wyoming and recorded a 10-15% improvement in mileage. I'm thinking about trying a bypass filter next to extend the drain interval. Best, John Hi Keith, I am new to this group and really enjoy learning about alternate fuels. I am wondering if anyone in this group has tried out this gadget? Thanks and have a wonderful weekend! Leo Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] NY Times Article on Barre, VT Diner Which Serves Food Grown Mostly Locally
Hey, that's cool. We don't read the NYT, but we do eat at this restaurant. On top of the good politics, it's really good food. John http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/11/magazine/11DINER.html Investors are lined up behind Murphy, and, incongruously, some are using the F-word -- franchise -- and talking about taking it regionally, even nationally. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Synthetic Oil and Grease
Maud Last year I was planning a trip from Vermont to California. I mentioned my plans on another list looking for restaurant suggestions and an Amsoil dealer contacted me suggesting I give their oil a try.. The main selling point is that they claim you can go 25,000 miles on an oil change, thus dramatically reducing your use of materials and not using any fossil-based oil at all. Secondary selling points are that you may get a slight improvement in mileage due to the synthetic's higher lubricity and the engine should last longer with less sludge accumulating. Finally, if you normally change your oil at 3,000 to 5,000 miles, you will save money and time by changing the oil every 25,000 miles. The oil itself costs about four times the cheap dino oil, but you use a fifth to an eighth as much oil. I tried it out in my 1996 Honda Civic. At the start of the trip the car had 214,000 miles on it and was running like almost new. It did have a slight knock when it started that would go away as the engine warmed up. On the way out to CA, I tracked our mileage very carefully. In San Bernardino, I flushed the engine and filled it with synthetic, same grade as I had been using. On the return trip, I again tracked the mileage very carefully. We have since driven about 30,000 miles and changed the oil once (at 234,000). The only difference we have noticed is that the cold-start knock has gone down significantly. We still get right around 40 mpg and the oil still comes out of the drain plug looking black and ugly. However, it is nice to change the oil once or twice a year (filter at 10,000-12,500 per Amsoil) and throw away a quarter of the used oil we were generating. At this point, I'm changing the oil at 20,000, mostly because it's hard to believe I can go 25,000 having grown up with the 3,000 mile mentality. When I was researching the switch, there were many testimonials from truckers and other heavy equipment operators who have gone 100,000 to 400,000 miles on the same oil through oil analysis. Most of these were on web sites selling the stuff, but I did find a few uninterested parties that spoke favorably of the oil. I have nothing to sell. I know that Amsoil is not the only brand out there, but I like the company and their attitude, so I will be sticking with them. I'm planning to switch our other two cars to synthetic and I'm thinking about it for our aged backhoe as I rebuild the various components and repair the leaking seals (no point in using synthetic if much of it ends up on the ground). The guy who turned me on to it is at [EMAIL PROTECTED], but there is no special reason to buy through him. My impression is that he deals mostly with large fleet contracts Small users do just as well to buy directly from Amsoil (http://www.amsoil.com/), although you may be able to find it locally. Good luck with your 300 DT. John I'm starting to working on getting my newly-acquired 1984 Mercedes 300 DT (I have no manuals) into roadworthy condition. What are my options (if any) for synthetic oil and grease so I can avoid fossil fuels associated with a lube and oil change? Is there anything biofuel-related that I should consider when selecting new tires? Thank you. Maud St. Louis, MO Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
