Re: [Biofuel] Re Twentynine steps to the unthinkable
Hello Bob and all snip This is the nub of the matter. Why is this subject banned from discussion in 11 countries (with a 12th about to come on line i.e. the recent American hate speech law which sailed through Congress) and why do otherwise apparently sane and intelligent people suddenly go la-la when asked to contemplate the anomalies? It might help to consider its sister taboos, and what happens to those breaking them, such as Mearsheimer and Walt with The Israel Lobby, Norman Finkelstein over his book, Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History, Jimmy Carter over his book, Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid, for instance. This is a must-add: http://www.tompaine.com/articles/oil_and_israel.php Oil and Israel, Bob Dreyfuss, The Dreyfuss Report, May 25, 2004 Meanwhile... http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/906924.htmlLast On the way to a pariah state, 25/09/2007 - ... it is stunning to see that an important event in the U.S. with enormous implications for Israel has gone all but unnoticed here. snip Over the years I have come to wonder if perhaps the Holocaust story has been used to weave a political hair shirt to keep likely dissenters in line while another holocaust - an ever-increasing obscenity of more than 50 years standing - is pursued with even more inhuman zeal than ever fascism could summon to its cause. snip http://www.counterpunch.org/laor10202004.html Yitzhak Laor: Did You Two Squabble? October 20, 2004 A Bullet Fired for Every Palestinian Child Did You Two Squabble? By YITZHAK LAOR Editors' Note: This trenchant essay by Israeli novelist Yitzhak Laor was originally submitted to the London Review of Books, which in the past has frequently published Laor's writing. But they refused to run this skewering of the Israeli Left with the LRB's editor chiding Laor that in my editorial judgment (to be pompous) this piece won't help anyone. CounterPunch is honored to publish it. AC / JSC One of the times I was detained (it was after a demonstration), I shared a cell with a young burglar, all blood and broken teeth, beaten twice. The first time was when he tried to escape, as detectives came to arrest him, since attempted escapes had become a sort of free license for police violence. The second time was a bit later when he was taken to hospital to stop his bleeding. Handcuffed he entered the ER, chained to a cop, and the doctor asked them both: Did you two squabble? The burglar did what he had to do: he spat his blood right into the face of the enlightened MD, and of course was beaten again, right there, still handcuffed, under the indifferent eyes of the medical staff. I liked my cellmate, I cannot forget his story, nor his pride. From that day on, June the 8th 1982, the question did you two squabble? became for me the image of the real description for the bystander. A month after the Intifada began, four years ago, Major General Amos Malka, by then No. 3 in the military hierarchy, and until 2001 the head of Israeli military Intelligence (MI), asked one of his officers (Major Kuperwasser) how many 5.56 bullets the Central Command had fired during that month (that is, only in the West Bank). Three years later Malka talked about these horrific figures. This is what he said to Ha'aretz's diplomatic commentator, Akiva Eldar about the first month of the Intifada, 30 days of unrest, no terrorist attacks yet, no Palestinian shooting: Kuperwasser got back to me with the number, 850,000 bullets. My figure was 1.3 million bullets in the West Bank and Gaza. This is a strategic figure that says that our soldiers are shooting and shooting and shooting. I asked: Is this what you intended in your preparations? and he replied in the negative. I said: Then the significance is that we are determining the height of the flames. (HaAretz, 11.6.2004). It was a bullet for every Palestinian child, said one of the officers in that meeting, or at least this is what the Israeli daily Maariv revealed two years ago, when the horrible figures were first leaked. It didn't much change public opinion, neither here nor in the West, neither two years ago nor 4 months ago when Malka finally opened his mouth. It read as if it had happened somewhere else, or a long time ago, or as if it was just one version, a voice in a polyphony, hiding behind the principle theme: we, the Israelis are right, and they are wrong. Israeli political society--including the Zionist Left, Labour, Meretz and Peace Now, all currently disappearing because of this war--had been so deeply involved in construction of anti-Palestinian consent during the first months of the Intifada, that none of them -- neither their politicians, nor their intellectuals -- were able to acknowledge such a story and say: Oops, we're sorry, we were misled. And it is not only about Major General Malka's bullet figures, of course. It is also about the total dismissal of the Palestinian
Re: [Biofuel] Re Twentynine steps to the unthinkable
Hallo Hakan, I don't suffer from the problems you mentioned below and I certainly don't look at the times using today's standards as a measure. In the military I worked in an intelligence unit and I can tell you that from an analysis standpoint everything you have mentioned doesn't amount to any sort or reasonable proof of anything other than that the camps existed and people died in them. Eyewitness proof is absolutely worthless. Folks are, in my view, pretty fast and loose with the terms proof and evidence. Intel analysts have a considerably higher standard than simple word of mouth or simple photographs, or at least they should have. I remember the dishonor Powell brought upon himself and our nations by taking discredited photographic evidence to the UN and claiming it to be good intel. Everything has a context brother. There is considerable difference in the word camp when it is prefaced by death or work. And Hakan, do not take this to mean that camps of either sort are to be considered in any way moral or acceptable. That is not what I mean at all. I am sick nearly to death of this nonsense between the Holocaust advocates and those denying the event. There is absolutely NO reason not to send in a multi-national forensic team to those camps and do the science. It would be definitive and shut EVERYONE on either side of the issue up. Doing the science is a win/win situation as I see it. I cannot imagine that most everyone is not tired of hearing the two sides argue about it. What is the objection to ending it by scientific verification or falsification? I see only benefits. Happy Happy, Gustl Sunday, 30 September, 2007, 14:32:45, you wrote: HF Gustl, HF I am sorry, but I am very sure of existence of HF the death camps etc.. Not only because I met a lo of HF survivors, but also the very large photographic HF evidence. Already in the early 50's I saw a lot of news HF reels, made mainly by the Americans. We did not HF have TV at that time and the news journals was HF shown before movies or at the three theatres in HF Stockholm that showed short news, nature, science HF and cartoons non stop. HF If you want proof, there are a lot of it films, HF photographs and witness statement. I is so much and from HF various sources. that it is impossible to stage HF this. You also can look at material from all the court HF cases, which is an enormous amount. It is also HF documented that the Holocaust was organized by HF a small circle of people and the general German HF population was not aware or belive that this was going HF on. Many knew that about internment, because it HF was going on in public, but not about the final solution. HF It was a very well guarded secret. Most Germans HF would have been seriously upset and revolted, if they HF would have known. I am not a supporter of making HF the German people in general responsible for what HF happened, this would be awfully wrong, HF You should also remember the very harsh HF punishment that was imposed on the German general population HF after WWI. It was no love lost on the Americans, HF French, English etc.. It was also general and severe poverty HF and hunger problems in Germany after the WWI HF peace and the Nazis managed to get the country out of that HF situation. HF You should also try to imagine a very much easier HF controlled news information situation and a very skillful HF Nazi apparatus to manage it. The Nazis not only HF invented terror bombing and other physiological warfare, HF they also invented mass media manipulation and HF became masters of it. Today we are used to it and especially HF the ones coming from USA and USSR, but the HF Americans are todays masters. You can imagine how easy it HF must have been to manipulate the German HF population, who had never been subject to such things. Do not make HF the mistake to measure the 1930's with todays measurement. HF Hakan HF At 04:32 PM 9/30/2007, you wrote: Hallo All, Somehow I thought this was the Biofuel list but if I am going on content then I guess it isn't and my reasons are below. First, this is 2007 not the dark ages. We actually have science now and much of what has been posited as fact can be scientifically verified or denied in a broad spectrum of areas. Forensics and mathmatics. What has been called The Holocaust and accepted as undisputed fact was not so named by those dubbed as Holocaust deniers. The burden of proof does not lie with the deniers but with those claiming that The Holocaust was a planned, oragnized, orchestrated and executed attempt to exterminate European Jewery by various methods but primarily in death camps located initially both inside and outside the Reich proper but subsequently only outside the Reich in occupied territory in the east and primarily in Poland. All this has been posited by interested parties without a shred of any
[Biofuel] Re Twentynine steps to the unthinkable
Hallo All, Somehow I thought this was the Biofuel list but if I am going on content then I guess it isn't and my reasons are below. First, this is 2007 not the dark ages. We actually have science now and much of what has been posited as fact can be scientifically verified or denied in a broad spectrum of areas. Forensics and mathmatics. What has been called The Holocaust and accepted as undisputed fact was not so named by those dubbed as Holocaust deniers. The burden of proof does not lie with the deniers but with those claiming that The Holocaust was a planned, oragnized, orchestrated and executed attempt to exterminate European Jewery by various methods but primarily in death camps located initially both inside and outside the Reich proper but subsequently only outside the Reich in occupied territory in the east and primarily in Poland. All this has been posited by interested parties without a shred of any evidence other than anecdotal and by the existence of the camps which were called work camps by the Germans. There is not one single offical German reference to such a program and the Germans documented everything. They were hardly shy of announcing to the world of their hatred of the Jews and there is no reason to believe that the Nazi's, given their proclivity for hate, violence and brutality, would be anything other than proud of their activity in this area and would have not only considered it quite accomplished but also have proclaimed it from hill to dale worldwide. IF the world want to shut all these Holocaust deniers mouths then it is only necessary to do the science folks. Take the claims of those deniers and either verify or falsify them one by one. They are calling for science and mathematics so IF there is forensic and mathmatical evidence to be had then provide it to them and shut them up or if there is none to be had then admit it and let the fuss stop. It is as simple as that. I don't know how many times Keith has told folks that if they make a claim then back it up. Where is the difference? How is it that we are willing to allow reason to simply not apply to this matter? We have accusations and counter accusations and we now have the scientific ability to lay this issue to rest. So why isn't it being laid to rest? How is it that this cherished belief is exempt from scrutiny? What the Nazi's did in the name of Germany is bad enough. Should it turn out that the holocaust revisionists are correct then what has been done to Germany by the rest of the world is just as bad. I was born in the United States of parents born in the United States but I am old enough to have been called a Nazi in my youth because I came from a German speaking family. I don't much like it. The German government has been owning up to The Holocaust since the end of the war. IF it turns out that, in fact, there was no such thing, no death camps, no extermination plans, then how quick is the world going to be in saying, Well, we were right about the rest of the war but 100 percent wrong about that other little matter. Sorry about that.? It isn't going to happen. Would anyone be sorry that generations of Germans have grown up hating who they are because of a lie? I don't think so. We, as a species, seem to be quick to point the accusing finger but slow to apologize for a mistake if one has been made. Finding out for a certainty whether or not this evil thing did or did not happen would be nice. It is wearying to keep having this ground ploughed again and again without having any crops come up. The seed is there to be sown so why not do it? Send in a multi-national scientific forensic team and do the science. Get a definitive answer and lay this beast to rest. We have work to do and this thing does nothing but divert attention from pressing problems. It can be definitively decided. If the science and math are there then it is laid to rest and if they are not there it is laid to rest. End of story. I am somewhat disappointed that folks would jump on Molloy about this without any evidence other than hearsay, assumptions and cherished beliefs and particularly since Bob was asking questions not making accusations. It is incumbent on those making the accusations of the atrocities to give scientific evidence of not only the physical possibility of the event but of the actual event. Leuchter, who evidently went into the forensic investigation at the behest of a Holocaust denier on trial in Canada I believe but with the personal intention of gathering evidence proving the event, found no evidence to support the claims of the Allies and the survivors of the camps, but contrariwise, found it lacking. As he was working for the opposition so to speak then let disinterested parties, perhaps a United
Re: [Biofuel] Re Twentynine steps to the unthinkable
?? Why would someone be a bird brain when they?challenge the status quo of an urban legend, the facts and numbers surrounding the?issue are less than complete, unbiased and objective. ?? If someone didn't have the audacity to think they could get fuel from plants 50 million years faster than the current source of combustible liquids, we wouldn't be having this discussion. ? ?? Questions and acceptable answers?are the norm in establishing something factually correct. Unless of course you are not interested in the facts that drive a particular belief system, should those facts materially affect to the detriment your or that?belief system. ? ?? Outrage based on ignorance, can only foster more, and more dangerous ignorance. ? ?? Anyone unwilling to discuss the matter,? (as the Jews are not mutually exclusive in having their lives, property and liberty stolen by those more powerful. The Palestinians, Iraqis, and maybe the Iranians soon, have/will also suffer(ed). Let's not forget the goings on, on the African continent and South Asia),???simply because? people with a particular religious belief are involved, doesn't relieve?them, their supporters/believers, and historians, from answering questions factually, completely?and in an un-biased manner so as to get to the truth. ?? Chris Brown ?Original Message- From: Bob Molloy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 10:44 pm Subject: [Biofuel] Re Twentynine steps to the unthinkable Whoa Weaver, Not true that I get smudge marks on my screen, at least not since my Mom made me wear gloves. As for that nasty remark about bird brain I'll have you know my ornithologist - who delivered me at birth - says I've got good pecking responses, so there. Your delightful holojerkery - the almost ubiquitous knee jerk response from yourself, Fritz and Hakan at mere mention of the subject - gladdened my avian soul. I couldn't stop chirping. But in fact it begs the question, posed in items 18-20 of Santomauro's piece. This is the nub of the matter. Why is this subject banned from discussion in 11 countries (with a 12th about to come on line i.e. the recent American hate speech law which sailed through Congress) and why do otherwise apparently sane and intelligent people suddenly go la-la when asked to contemplate the anomalies? Don't feel too remiss, Mike. My Israeli cuzzies and rellies still jump up and down when I mention the Nakba, and they can be a lot more scathing, believe me. Over the years I have come to wonder if perhaps the Holocaust story has been used to weave a political hair shirt to keep likely dissenters in line while another holocaust - an ever-increasing obscenity of more than 50 years standing - is pursued with even more inhuman zeal than ever fascism could summon to its cause. Yours in clawdom, Bob. PS: would you Weavers be related to my auntie's clan, the Thrushes? Just asking - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 3:06 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Twentynine steps to the unthinkable Bob Molloy wrote: Gee Bob, thanks for posting this. What's next? A cut and paste proof that global warming is a hoax? The war in Iraq is about liberation? Apartheid didn't happen? It's one thing to be as ignorant as you are; it's quite another thing to wave it about so proudly. When you do learn to read with getting smudge marks on your computer screen from using your finger, I urge you to do a little reseach before you post these moronic bleatings. You're a bird brain, and I mean that as an insult to the birds. -Mike Weaver ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- Unlimited storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20070930/f80275c6/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Re Twentynine steps to the unthinkable
Gustl, I am sorry, but I am very sure of existence of the death camps etc.. Not only because I met a lo of survivors, but also the very large photographic evidence. Already in the early 50's I saw a lot of news reels, made mainly by the Americans. We did not have TV at that time and the news journals was shown before movies or at the three theatres in Stockholm that showed short news, nature, science and cartoons non stop. If you want proof, there are a lot of it films, photographs and witness statement. I is so much and from various sources. that it is impossible to stage this. You also can look at material from all the court cases, which is an enormous amount. It is also documented that the Holocaust was organized by a small circle of people and the general German population was not aware or belive that this was going on. Many knew that about internment, because it was going on in public, but not about the final solution. It was a very well guarded secret. Most Germans would have been seriously upset and revolted, if they would have known. I am not a supporter of making the German people in general responsible for what happened, this would be awfully wrong, You should also remember the very harsh punishment that was imposed on the German general population after WWI. It was no love lost on the Americans, French, English etc.. It was also general and severe poverty and hunger problems in Germany after the WWI peace and the Nazis managed to get the country out of that situation. You should also try to imagine a very much easier controlled news information situation and a very skillful Nazi apparatus to manage it. The Nazis not only invented terror bombing and other physiological warfare, they also invented mass media manipulation and became masters of it. Today we are used to it and especially the ones coming from USA and USSR, but the Americans are todays masters. You can imagine how easy it must have been to manipulate the German population, who had never been subject to such things. Do not make the mistake to measure the 1930's with todays measurement. Hakan At 04:32 PM 9/30/2007, you wrote: Hallo All, Somehow I thought this was the Biofuel list but if I am going on content then I guess it isn't and my reasons are below. First, this is 2007 not the dark ages. We actually have science now and much of what has been posited as fact can be scientifically verified or denied in a broad spectrum of areas. Forensics and mathmatics. What has been called The Holocaust and accepted as undisputed fact was not so named by those dubbed as Holocaust deniers. The burden of proof does not lie with the deniers but with those claiming that The Holocaust was a planned, oragnized, orchestrated and executed attempt to exterminate European Jewery by various methods but primarily in death camps located initially both inside and outside the Reich proper but subsequently only outside the Reich in occupied territory in the east and primarily in Poland. All this has been posited by interested parties without a shred of any evidence other than anecdotal and by the existence of the camps which were called work camps by the Germans. There is not one single offical German reference to such a program and the Germans documented everything. They were hardly shy of announcing to the world of their hatred of the Jews and there is no reason to believe that the Nazi's, given their proclivity for hate, violence and brutality, would be anything other than proud of their activity in this area and would have not only considered it quite accomplished but also have proclaimed it from hill to dale worldwide. IF the world want to shut all these Holocaust deniers mouths then it is only necessary to do the science folks. Take the claims of those deniers and either verify or falsify them one by one. They are calling for science and mathematics so IF there is forensic and mathmatical evidence to be had then provide it to them and shut them up or if there is none to be had then admit it and let the fuss stop. It is as simple as that. I don't know how many times Keith has told folks that if they make a claim then back it up. Where is the difference? How is it that we are willing to allow reason to simply not apply to this matter? We have accusations and counter accusations and we now have the scientific ability to lay this issue to rest. So why isn't it being laid to rest? How is it that this cherished belief is exempt from scrutiny? What the Nazi's did in the name of Germany is bad enough. Should it turn out that the holocaust revisionists are correct then what has been done to Germany by the rest of the world is just as bad. I was born in the United States of parents born in the United States but I am old enough to have been called a Nazi in my youth because I came from a German speaking family. I don't much
[Biofuel] Re Twentynine steps to the unthinkable
Whoa Weaver, Not true that I get smudge marks on my screen, at least not since my Mom made me wear gloves. As for that nasty remark about bird brain I'll have you know my ornithologist - who delivered me at birth - says I've got good pecking responses, so there. Your delightful holojerkery - the almost ubiquitous knee jerk response from yourself, Fritz and Hakan at mere mention of the subject - gladdened my avian soul. I couldn't stop chirping. But in fact it begs the question, posed in items 18-20 of Santomauro's piece. This is the nub of the matter. Why is this subject banned from discussion in 11 countries (with a 12th about to come on line i.e. the recent American hate speech law which sailed through Congress) and why do otherwise apparently sane and intelligent people suddenly go la-la when asked to contemplate the anomalies? Don't feel too remiss, Mike. My Israeli cuzzies and rellies still jump up and down when I mention the Nakba, and they can be a lot more scathing, believe me. Over the years I have come to wonder if perhaps the Holocaust story has been used to weave a political hair shirt to keep likely dissenters in line while another holocaust - an ever-increasing obscenity of more than 50 years standing - is pursued with even more inhuman zeal than ever fascism could summon to its cause. Yours in clawdom, Bob. PS: would you Weavers be related to my auntie's clan, the Thrushes? Just asking - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 3:06 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Twentynine steps to the unthinkable Bob Molloy wrote: Gee Bob, thanks for posting this. What's next? A cut and paste proof that global warming is a hoax? The war in Iraq is about liberation? Apartheid didn't happen? It's one thing to be as ignorant as you are; it's quite another thing to wave it about so proudly. When you do learn to read with getting smudge marks on your computer screen from using your finger, I urge you to do a little reseach before you post these moronic bleatings. You're a bird brain, and I mean that as an insult to the birds. -Mike Weaver ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
