[biofuel] Re: Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles
On Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:10:36 +0900, you wrote: >MM wrote: > >> > In addition, it will urge the auto industry to produce 2003 >>models capable of using gas >> > containing 10 percent ethanol. >> >>Ah, but I thought no modifications were needed, according to what >>Keith and others have been saying. Whence this policy of a major >>government of the country that produces arguably the world's best auto >>technology? > >It's not a policy of a major government, it's part of a proposal by a >study group. That's not quite what I've been saying. In fact I >haven't said much about it, other than to quote what other people >have said, and to ask, Where's the damage? - apart from an outboard >motor that allegedly splutters. Yes, I mis-stated things and knew it as soon as I'd posted it, but figured it would come up further in whatever reply you made. >What this story from Japan says is rather different to what you seem >to think - didn't you read the next paragraph? It's an emissions >concern, that's all. It says "safety tests", that means environmental >safety, not engine-damage safety. >You seem very keen to reach the >conclusion that 10% ethanol damages motors, I don't understand why. Actually, this nearly as much a mis-statement of my position as mine was of yours. My primary focus has been to nail down what are the effects (good or bad or indifferent) of *over* 10% mixtures. I've made that clear several times, and so have some of the interested parties in Australia, and so have some of the car manufacturers. That number (or 12 or 13%) was put on one of my own owner's manuals, a point which you just sort of dismissed out of hand as "spin", (which meant I-have-no-idea-what). Furthermore, I've used 10% mixtures, once in a great while (on long trips) as have many other Americans, and so we can tell Australians truthfully, well, it's been in use for years now in parts of the U.S. and we seem to be doing fine with it, to my knowledge. I do think that some of the over-10% concerns have been answered, and I think that putting a 20% mixture, say, into my own vehicle is something I'd be *delighted* to do. But, I am putting myself in the position of motorists in Australia, Japan and elsewhere who know little or nothing of these debates and honestly want to know everything possible about what goes into their cars. The net result of anything like talking down to honest questioners from those countries will be a victory for the opposition. As to 10%, I'm sure that there are no untoward effects of introducing a 10% ethanol mixture where it hasn't been before, and this wasn't my main concern, although it does not hurt to go over a couple of points which I think have been glossed-over. -- Hoagy mentions some older parts had needed replacement, way back when he had his first foray into use of 10%. -- He also mentions the valuable point that some fuel providers have tainted goods no matter what. I'd add that if they can screw up gas, they're just as likely, if not more, to screw up a new more-complex mixture that their providers sort of want screwed up anyway. -- I have heard once or twice before something about fuel filters, so I have asked the questions honestly, because I had heard them. Specifically, I think I have read sometimes that since ethanol sometimes has a cleaning effect where it might loosen up deposits which might then clog the fuel filter, then this might be a one-time easily fixed effect, after which the car would theoretically run better, but during which things would be worse, and appear much worse to a driver unaware of all this. That, anyway, is my recollection of the scenario. >> The Environment Ministry in fiscal 2003 will conduct safety tests >>to establish whether >> the low-concentration blended gasoline can be used in existing >>vehicles. The ministry >> also plans to set up and subsidize low-concentration blended fuel >>pumps at gasoline >> stands in some regions. >> >> In addition, it will urge the auto industry to produce 2003 models >>capable of using gas >> containing 10 percent ethanol. >> >> Enabling vehicles to handle the blended fuel would require >>automakers to change the >> catalytic control device, which removes nitrogen dioxides. The >>Environment Ministry >> plans to subsidize the cost of changing this device. I guess you're saying this implies their concern is not with changing parts affecting core mechanical operation so much as emissions, because they're talking about the catalytic converter. I did miss that. I didn't miss that the Environment Ministry appears to be a government body. Somewhat "off" emissions are not as great a concern to me as core vehicle function, because they're not going to be the first concern to "Joe average driver" when he asks himself if he's concerned about changes to fuel for sale down the block. Number one concern, for my money: long-term vehicle reliability. From what Hoagy says, that's extremely good in h
[biofuel] Re: Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles
Re these two stories Hoagy posted, "Japan: Country Eyes Bioenergy-fueled Plants, Cars in 2010" and "Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles", it's very gratifying to see that the major focus is on waste, and on the community level. Most previous proposals have been high-tech stuff for big industry, so this really is a change. One of the movers behind these proposals is Associate Prof. Yuta Harago at Meiji-Gakuin University, who runs the Biomass Industrial Society Network. He previously did a lot of work with biomass in Brazil, working with Mercedes-Benz and local communities there, and in Mexico and elsewhere in Latin America, and more recently here. He spent time with us in Tokyo, and much time at our website, and he's been a Biofuel list member for a year now. His book on biomass energy for Japan was published here last month, and is proving very influential. The first chapter starts like this: "Example one - Running a car on handmade energy", and continues with a Japanese translation of the following, which might sound familiar: "We turned our kitchen into a sort of illicit still and made a hell of a mess in there brewing biodiesel fuel out of about 60 litres of yukky waste cooking oil we got from behind McDonald's one night (they were happy to give it to us once we told them we didn't want to eat it). We were sure it would work, but we had to make it ourselves first -- we're not chemists, and if we can make it anyone can. And it works! Amazing! Last night we put the stuff in Midori's old diesel Land Rover and it ran like a dream and smelt like a bunch of roses! Well, French fried roses anyway. Now it runs clean, on waste Big Mac residues we brewed up in a bucket in the kitchen, and we're very tickled!" With the link: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel.html Biodiesel: Journey to Forever :-) Quite a lot of the information comes from our website. We're still in touch with Yuta, we get notified of the meetings and conferences and so on, but we don't go, especially since we're not in Tokyo now, but also, rather than the level where 500 communities get selected for trials, we prefer working in one community, from the ground up, and we'll be doing that in a rural community in Ichijima from next month. This will be the final phase of our project here in Japan before leaving on the rest of our journey. Best Keith Journey to Forever >Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles > Dec 16, 2002 > The Asahi Shimbun > http://www.asahi.com/english/national/K2002121600230.html > > An Environment Ministry study group will propose a policy of >blending alcohol into > gasoline to create a cleaner fuel for motor vehicles-a move that >could radically change > the auto industry. > > The initial goal is to help the nation achieve its greenhouse gas >reduction target under > the Kyoto Protocol. But the ultimate aim is to have the blended fuel, with a > plant-derived ethanol content of 10 percent, completely replace >regular gasoline, > according to the group headed by Waseda University professor Katsuya Nagata. > > The group, which includes scientists and representatives of the >auto industry, was set > up to study technology to deal with global warming. > > For its part, the ministry will promote the spread of vehicles >capable of using the > blended fuel. The ministry intends to begin the switch as early as 2008. > > The Kyoto Protocol obliges Japan to reduce greenhouse gases such as >carbon dioxide > by 6 percent from the 1990 level during the period from 2008 to 2012. > > The study group determined that motor vehicles belch out about 20 percent of > greenhouse gas emissions in Japan. > > If regular gasoline is converted to the blended fuel, it would be >possible to reduce > emissions by 1 percent from the 1990 level, according to the study group. > > The Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry has already started to >develop a system > to promote the spread of low-concentration blended gasoline >containing between > 1 percent and 5 percent plant-derived ethanol. > > The Environment Ministry in fiscal 2003 will conduct safety tests >to establish whether > the low-concentration blended gasoline can be used in existing >vehicles. The ministry > also plans to set up and subsidize low-concentration blended fuel >pumps at gasoline > stands in some regions. > > In addition, it will urge the auto industry to produce 2003 models >capable of using gas > containing 10 percent ethanol. > > Enabling vehicles to handle the blended fuel would require >automakers to change the > catalytic control device, which removes nitrogen dioxides. The >Environment Ministry > plans to subsidize the cost of changing this device. > > The cost of the ethanol-gasoline mix is currently about 30 percent >higher than that of > regular gasoline, mainly because ethanol must be refined after >being imported. > > But the price will come down to the level of r
