Re: [biofuels-biz] Water injection vs. water in fuel
Hello Peter But we're not talking about water in diesel. A water mist injection into the air intake, yes, but the water in the fuel side of it concerns water dissolved in a biodiesel-ethanol blend. There's no free water content, it's dissolved. With biodiesel, there's not likely to be any lack of lubricity in the upper cylinder area no matter how much ethanol is used, and microorganisms don't seem to be a problem with biodiesel. There's no need for harsh solvents, biodiesel does a good job of cleaning out all the gunge in the tank etc in the first couple of weeks. Harry was talking of a 10% ethanol, 10% water, 20% biodiesel, 60% petrodiesel blend using an emulsifier - again, no free water. The EPA report referred to details 23 studies of water-fuel emulsions - petrodiesel, yes, but emulsified: no free water. "Following is a list of studies that are being considered for inclusion in work being done by EPA to assess the effects of water-fuel emulsions on emissions of oxides of nitrogen (NOx), hydrocarbons (HC), and particulate matter (PM)." http://www.epa.gov/otaq/models/analysis/emulsion/emulbibl.pdf The French ACREVO study found this: It has been established that an addition of 9 % of ethyl alcohol (95 %) bring a great benefit regarding the pre-heating oil temperature. In fact, the presence of alcohol allows a reduction in the inlet oil temperature from 150 ¡C to 80 ¡C. Moreover, the combustion of the emulsion produces less soot and, at the exhaust, the amount is almost one half less than that produced by the combustion of rapeseed oil. http://www.nf-2000.org/secure/Fair/F484.htm It seems water, one way or the other or both, will give combustion and emissions improvements which could be considerable, especially with an ethanol blend. Best Keith >I have been reading with interest the subject of water injection for >diesels. >Further to Marc's comments I would like to add the following 5% >water in diesel will damage the fuel pump and injectors by replacing the >lubricating properties of the diesel, diesel from your local supplier can >have up to 3% free water before it gets to your tank. Add to that a daily >change of ambient temperature of 7û F or more, causing condensation inside >your fuel tank and you can get over the 5%, most of which can settle out if >not disturbed and create another problem of Micro Organisms growing in your >tank. >Over the years many 'additives' have been flogged to combat water, micro >organisms, and system cleaning. The main product used to combat water has >been various alcohols. There are several problems with using alcohols, >firstly it breaks the water up into different size particles which can still >reunite in the fuel system and cause damage, a good example of this is >collecting in the injector tips, turning into steam with enough force to >blow the end off the injector. Excess alcohol in the diesel can also leed to >lubricating problems in the upper cylinder area and increased cylinder >temperatures, this over time can cause piston cracking. Adding alcohol has >no effect for control or eliminating micro organisms. A harsh solvent called >'toluene', used mainly in paints, is used to clean fuel systems which in >very dirty systems will cause filter blocking and low power. It will also >damage rubbers, nylons and other plastics which are found in todays fuel >systems. >I am not against fuel treatments (as opposed to additives), water injection >or other technologies. If water was to be injected into the air intake >stream, then there would have to be some way to shut off the injection prior >to shutting down the engine to prevent cylinder corrosion. Also injection >would have to be after the turbo charger (if fitted) to prevent the likely >hood of damage to the impellor. >Hope my experience and knowledge was of benefit to you all. >regards >Peter Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/9bTolB/TM -~-> Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Water injection vs. water in fuel
I have been reading with interest the subject of water injection for diesels. Further to Marc's comments I would like to add the following 5% water in diesel will damage the fuel pump and injectors by replacing the lubricating properties of the diesel, diesel from your local supplier can have up to 3% free water before it gets to your tank. Add to that a daily change of ambient temperature of 7û F or more, causing condensation inside your fuel tank and you can get over the 5%, most of which can settle out if not disturbed and create another problem of Micro Organisms growing in your tank. Over the years many 'additives' have been flogged to combat water, micro organisms, and system cleaning. The main product used to combat water has been various alcohols. There are several problems with using alcohols, firstly it breaks the water up into different size particles which can still reunite in the fuel system and cause damage, a good example of this is collecting in the injector tips, turning into steam with enough force to blow the end off the injector. Excess alcohol in the diesel can also leed to lubricating problems in the upper cylinder area and increased cylinder temperatures, this over time can cause piston cracking. Adding alcohol has no effect for control or eliminating micro organisms. A harsh solvent called 'toluene', used mainly in paints, is used to clean fuel systems which in very dirty systems will cause filter blocking and low power. It will also damage rubbers, nylons and other plastics which are found in todays fuel systems. I am not against fuel treatments (as opposed to additives), water injection or other technologies. If water was to be injected into the air intake stream, then there would have to be some way to shut off the injection prior to shutting down the engine to prevent cylinder corrosion. Also injection would have to be after the turbo charger (if fitted) to prevent the likely hood of damage to the impellor. Hope my experience and knowledge was of benefit to you all. regards Peter Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/9bTolB/TM -~-> Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Water injection vs. water in fuel
Since rapeseed oil was used to lubricate steam engines, because of its properties of clinging to cylinder walls and resisting being washed off by steam... "The crop has undergone a great metamorphosis in quality and production since it was first grown as an emergency war measure on a few acres in 1942. At that time, rapeseed oil was considered an essential lubricant because it could cling to water- and steam-washed metal surfaces better than any other oil. Since the naval ships and trains of the time were steam-powered, and with the European and Asian rape oil supplies cut off, Canada was asked to undertake production. " http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1990/v1-211.html and since we have evidence of how incredibly lubricating it is, "In the case of biodiesel oil made from canola, the University of Saskatchewan has shown that a 1% addition to petroleum diesel fuel would help reduce engine wear by 40%" http://www.agr.gc.ca/misb/spcrops/framework_e.phtml#3.2.1 I wonder if the potential for water corrosion is reduced by the presence of that oil, versus the fossil diesel. Edward Beggs, BES, MSc http://www.biofuels.ca on 6/9/02 4:33 AM, F. Marc de Piolenc at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Basically, the reason for excluding water from diesel fuel - aside from > its devastating effect in cold climates - is to prevent corrosion of the > injection system. > > A water mist is helpful in moderating combustion and boosting output > under come circumstances, but it, too, must be used with caution to > prevent corrosion of the upper cylinder. Basically, you start then > engine "dry" and start the mist only when it is fully warmed up. You > stop the mist before stopping the engine, giving time for any condensed > water in the intake manifold to vaporize and go through the engine. > > Marc de Piolenc Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Water injection vs. water in fuel
Basically, the reason for excluding water from diesel fuel - aside from its devastating effect in cold climates - is to prevent corrosion of the injection system. A water mist is helpful in moderating combustion and boosting output under come circumstances, but it, too, must be used with caution to prevent corrosion of the upper cylinder. Basically, you start then engine "dry" and start the mist only when it is fully warmed up. You stop the mist before stopping the engine, giving time for any condensed water in the intake manifold to vaporize and go through the engine. Marc de Piolenc -- Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776 They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/9bTolB/TM -~-> Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
