Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
Where its said that a person checked the box ? And not a bot, and if it were human, who did it ? Someone who shared/hacked your WiFi ? There is no legal relation between an ip-number and a person unless there is other circumstantial evidence, such as a double opt-in confirmed log-in in with username and password. -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Kenneth Gonsalves [mailto:law...@thenilgiris.com] Verzonden: maandag 18 april 2011 12:31 Aan: Elizabeth Dodd CC: talk@openstreetmap.org Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box On Mon, 2011-04-18 at 20:02 +1000, Elizabeth Dodd wrote: On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 08:40:45 +0200 Fabio Alessandro Locati fabioloc...@gmail.com wrote: In all the countries I know of ticking a checkbox is comparable to sign a printed contract, so I thin is pointless to have a written contract or a CopyPast thing ;) add Australia to your list of places where ticking a checkbox is NOT comparable to signing a printed contract. Quotation from an Australian Copyright Council Information sheet G102v01 Elements of a contract The following elements must be present before you have a contract (a legally binding agreement): • an offer; • acceptance; • benefit to all parties (“consideration”). Sometimes, a party does not want to accept the terms initially offered and makes a “counter-offer”, which may then be further negotiated. A contract is not binding until an offer is accepted without further conditions. Terms and conditions are generally set at the time of acceptance and cannot later be changed or revoked without all parties agreeing to the new terms. where does this say that ticking a checkbox is not an acceptance of an offer? And there is nothing unique about this - derived from English common law and the same terms are there in *all* jurisdictions that derive from common law. -- regards KG http://lawgon.livejournal.com Coimbatore LUG rox http://ilugcbe.techstud.org/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 9:38 PM, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl wrote: Where its said that a person checked the box ? And not a bot, and if it were human, who did it ? Someone who shared/hacked your WiFi ? There is no legal relation between an ip-number and a person unless there is other circumstantial evidence, such as a double opt-in confirmed log-in in with username and password. Good questions, but these themes are already solved in the laws since digital contracts are valid and that you need to be logged to accept the ODbL+CT (and, btw: who assures that your sign is really tour sign and nota fake?) Fabio A Locati -- Fabio Alessandro Locati Home: Segrate, Milan, Italy (GMT +1) Phone: +39-328-3799681 MSN/Jabber/E-Mail: fabioloc...@gmail.com PGP Fingerprint: 5525 8555 213C 19EB 25F2 A047 2AD2 BE67 0F01 CA61 Involved in: KDE, OpenStreetMap, Ubuntu, Wikimedia ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 7:38 AM, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl wrote: While I certainly understand the pro-PD argument, what would folks think about putting the checkbox after the submit button? I agree, it should be done It's rather degrading saying this about community members signing up, when at the same time you same people expect that clicking another box on another page (I agree to the CT) creates a binding contract. If you really need votes that you can account for, send the members a printed form to sign. Or at least use a input box where people have to (copy)type a simple phrase like In all the countries I know of ticking a checkbox is comparable to sign a printed contract, so I thin is pointless to have a written contract or a CopyPast thing ;) Fabio A Locati -- Fabio Alessandro Locati Home: Segrate, Milan, Italy (GMT +1) Phone: +39-328-3799681 MSN/Jabber/E-Mail: fabioloc...@gmail.com PGP Fingerprint: 5525 8555 213C 19EB 25F2 A047 2AD2 BE67 0F01 CA61 Involved in: KDE, OpenStreetMap, Ubuntu, Wikimedia ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
On Monday 18 April 2011 04:47:30 Steve Coast wrote: Today I watched a few people sign up for OSM and they all ticked the PD box without even looking at it, it was very entertaining. And hereby the expected anti-PD campaign is officially started. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
Perhaps the PD tickbox could be replaced with a radio button between two choices. One of the two must be picked before submitting. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
On Sun, 2011-04-17 at 19:47 -0700, Steve Coast wrote: Today I watched a few people sign up for OSM and they all ticked the PD box without even looking at it, it was very entertaining. Many people have become accustomed to simply checking/accepting any terms and conditions displayed, for fear of not being able to proceed. Infact, my GPS unit upon power up displays a warning about copyright and using while driving which you must accept, as if you try to proceed without accepting, it instantly powers off. After all, have you ever seen an application which asked you to accept a licence, and proceeded anyway if you clicked refuse? David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
Cartinus cartinus at xs4all.nl writes: On Monday 18 April 2011 04:47:30 Steve Coast wrote: Today I watched a few people sign up for OSM and they all ticked the PD box without even looking at it, it was very entertaining. And hereby the expected anti-PD campaign is officially started. I would guess that lots of people are also selecting ODbL + CT without looking at those and the anti-PD campaign has started a long, long time ago. But it would be really entertaining to see statistics about how many people have checked the PD tick box. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
Am I worng or the PD-box is for statistical use only? Fabio A Locati On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 10:45 AM, Jukka Rahkonen jukka.rahko...@latuviitta.fi wrote: Cartinus cartinus at xs4all.nl writes: On Monday 18 April 2011 04:47:30 Steve Coast wrote: Today I watched a few people sign up for OSM and they all ticked the PD box without even looking at it, it was very entertaining. And hereby the expected anti-PD campaign is officially started. I would guess that lots of people are also selecting ODbL + CT without looking at those and the anti-PD campaign has started a long, long time ago. But it would be really entertaining to see statistics about how many people have checked the PD tick box. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Fabio Alessandro Locati Home: Segrate, Milan, Italy (GMT +1) Phone: +39-328-3799681 MSN/Jabber/E-Mail: fabioloc...@gmail.com PGP Fingerprint: 5525 8555 213C 19EB 25F2 A047 2AD2 BE67 0F01 CA61 Involved in: KDE, OpenStreetMap, Ubuntu, Wikimedia ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 08:40:45 +0200 Fabio Alessandro Locati fabioloc...@gmail.com wrote: In all the countries I know of ticking a checkbox is comparable to sign a printed contract, so I thin is pointless to have a written contract or a CopyPast thing ;) add Australia to your list of places where ticking a checkbox is NOT comparable to signing a printed contract. Quotation from an Australian Copyright Council Information sheet G102v01 Elements of a contract The following elements must be present before you have a contract (a legally binding agreement): • an offer; • acceptance; • benefit to all parties (“consideration”). Sometimes, a party does not want to accept the terms initially offered and makes a “counter-offer”, which may then be further negotiated. A contract is not binding until an offer is accepted without further conditions. Terms and conditions are generally set at the time of acceptance and cannot later be changed or revoked without all parties agreeing to the new terms. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
2011/4/18 Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net: On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 08:40:45 +0200 Fabio Alessandro Locati fabioloc...@gmail.com wrote: In all the countries I know of ticking a checkbox is comparable to sign a printed contract, so I thin is pointless to have a written contract or a CopyPast thing ;) add Australia to your list of places where ticking a checkbox is NOT comparable to signing a printed contract. Quotation from an Australian Copyright Council Information sheet G102v01 Elements of a contract The following elements must be present before you have a contract (a legally binding agreement): • an offer; • acceptance; • benefit to all parties (“consideration”). Sometimes, a party does not want to accept the terms initially offered and makes a “counter-offer”, which may then be further negotiated. A contract is not binding until an offer is accepted without further conditions. Terms and conditions are generally set at the time of acceptance and cannot later be changed or revoked without all parties agreeing to the new terms. I know, English is not my native one, but how it is related with checkbox as agreeing with printed contract? When you check that box, you agree that contract is final and valid. If you don't want to acept the terms, you simply don't check it. Or I don't get secret lawyers language? :) Cheers, Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
Fabio Alessandro Locati fabiolocati at gmail.com writes: Am I worng or the PD-box is for statistical use only? It may be there for statistics but no numbers have ever been published. The other possible reason for the existence of the tick box is to make PD-minded people feel happy and be quit. Somehow similar case than the creation of the legal-general mailing list. PD-box does not have any practical effect, all data that is uploaded into OSM database is under the same OSM licence. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
On Mon, 2011-04-18 at 20:02 +1000, Elizabeth Dodd wrote: On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 08:40:45 +0200 Fabio Alessandro Locati fabioloc...@gmail.com wrote: In all the countries I know of ticking a checkbox is comparable to sign a printed contract, so I thin is pointless to have a written contract or a CopyPast thing ;) add Australia to your list of places where ticking a checkbox is NOT comparable to signing a printed contract. Quotation from an Australian Copyright Council Information sheet G102v01 Elements of a contract The following elements must be present before you have a contract (a legally binding agreement): • an offer; • acceptance; • benefit to all parties (“consideration”). Sometimes, a party does not want to accept the terms initially offered and makes a “counter-offer”, which may then be further negotiated. A contract is not binding until an offer is accepted without further conditions. Terms and conditions are generally set at the time of acceptance and cannot later be changed or revoked without all parties agreeing to the new terms. where does this say that ticking a checkbox is not an acceptance of an offer? And there is nothing unique about this - derived from English common law and the same terms are there in *all* jurisdictions that derive from common law. -- regards KG http://lawgon.livejournal.com Coimbatore LUG rox http://ilugcbe.techstud.org/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
I know, English is not my native one, but how it is related with checkbox as agreeing with printed contract? When you check that box, you agree that contract is final and valid. If you don't want to acept the terms, you simply don't check it. Or I don't get secret lawyers language? :) Cheers, Peter. A tickbox does not contain all the parts of a full contract. A contract does not need to be on paper, but it means that 'you and I together agreed on these terms'. I gave the 'elements' or things that must be present for a valid contract, a tickbox does not necessarily contain them all. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
David Murn davey at incanberra.com.au writes: Infact, my GPS unit upon power up displays a warning about copyright and using while driving which you must accept, as if you try to proceed without accepting, it instantly powers off. What, it warns you that copyright doesn't apply? Excellent. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
For what it's worth, I just legally signed my state tax return with nothing but a checkbox on a web form... Toby ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
On Mon, 2011-04-18 at 10:27 -0500, Toby Murray wrote: For what it's worth, I just legally signed my state tax return with nothing but a checkbox on a web form... You mean all you had to do to do your tax, was check a checkbox and click accept? Or did you also provide information persuant to what was asked of you, in order to complete the process? This basically just shows the issues that will arise with the change to contract law. In your jurisdiction, what youve done may be legally acceptable, but in others it is not. I suspect that the number of places that have different contract laws is significantly higher than those places that dont recognise CC-BY-SA, but there must be a small select group for who the old licence doesnt work but the new one fits their requirement. Maybe we should all move to this magical place.. at least with that many mappers in one place, OSM might start being completed. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
2011/4/18 David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au: I suspect that the number of places that have different contract laws is significantly higher than those places that dont recognise CC-BY-SA, I think you are ignoring the fact, that the problem was not whether a country recognizes CC-BY-SA but whether CC-BY-SA is suited to regulate the use of data (its intention was doubtlessly a license for works, not for collected facts). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
Aren't you a few days late? :-) On 4/18/2011 8:27 AM, Toby Murray wrote: For what it's worth, I just legally signed my state tax return with nothing but a checkbox on a web form... Toby ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
This year, the deadline for filing the Federal income-tax return in the USA is April 18th, and some states have probably altered their schedules to match. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box From :mailto:st...@asklater.com Date :Mon Apr 18 13:29:00 America/Chicago 2011 Aren't you a few days late? :-) On 4/18/2011 8:27 AM, Toby Murray wrote: For what it's worth, I just legally signed my state tax return with nothing but a checkbox on a web form... Toby ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
And there was me rushing to have it done by the 15th... On 4/18/2011 11:35 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote: This year, the deadline for filing the Federal income-tax return in the USA is April 18th, and some states have probably altered their schedules to match. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box From :mailto:st...@asklater.com Date :Mon Apr 18 13:29:00 America/Chicago 2011 Aren't you a few days late? :-) On 4/18/2011 8:27 AM, Toby Murray wrote: For what it's worth, I just legally signed my state tax return with nothing but a checkbox on a web form... Toby ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] PD tick box
Today I watched a few people sign up for OSM and they all ticked the PD box without even looking at it, it was very entertaining. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
I've seen the same pattern. While I certainly understand the pro-PD argument, what would folks think about putting the checkbox after the submit button? - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
Today I watched a few people sign up for OSM and they all ticked the PD box without even looking at it, it was very entertaining.: While I certainly understand the pro-PD argument, what would folks think about putting the checkbox after the submit button? It's rather degrading saying this about community members signing up, when at the same time you same people expect that clicking another box on another page (I agree to the CT) creates a binding contract. If you really need votes that you can account for, send the members a printed form to sign. Or at least use a input box where people have to (copy)type a simple phrase like I hereby understand that Gert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
