Re: [Talk-es] Please revert Barcelona stations
Hi! Pablo Cascón Katchadourian schrieb: >first, thanks Gernot for the mapping work done. . Just a small addition: there's a map which renders the public transport network in a quite nice manner - you might want to check the current look of Barcelona there: http://www.öpnvkarte.de/?zoom=13&lat=41.40204&lon=2.16646&layers=BT As the "official" documentation for this map is unfortunately available in German only, here's a short summary: This map prominently renders public transport details while keeping the rest low-key. Usual nodes like railway=station et al. are supported. To get the network (i.e. the lines) itself shown, you have to add route relations; the ways (e.g. railway=subway) aren't rendered. Update cycle usually needs 2-3 days until you see changes there... You can find a list of supported tagging here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Öpnvkarte -- Gernot ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es
Re: [Talk-es] Please revert Barcelona stations
Hi all, first, thanks Gernot for the mapping work done. And thanks Francisco for the "So.. don't risk, thats all I say." message. Now on the issue, even if the data is actually copied from Google maps to wikipedia, I don't think Google (or the source, Teleatlas...) can proof that this is the case. The Wikipedia contributor could say that he went to all the stations with a gps and got the coordinates. And there is also the doubt that this kind of information can be copyrighted, I think is called factual information: there is no creativity, so no copyright protection. So, in my opinion the risk to get sued is really low, and even in that case, the big risk is for the Wikipedia contributor, and also, if the data had to be removed from OSM at that time (hopefully) there will be enough OSM contributors that will recreate it from GPS quite fast. So, with such a low risk, it's better to have it mapped than not. Regards, Pablo Gernot Hillier escribió: > Hi! > > Francisco R. Santos schrieb: > >> Yes, sorry, you are right, I misinterpreted some wiki page. But the >> ending is the same: all your data could be reverted in case a copyright >> trial is lost. >> > > Would be sad for the menweeks I invested, but taken the very minimal > chances such a court case will take place and that I additionally don't > believe such a case will be won, I can live with that risk. > > Finally, I'm quite sure: now that the basic data is there as starting > point, within 2 month 90% of my data will replaced with corrected > versions by local mappers. > > >> All of them have licenses that allows to be imported by us, and all of >> > > Exactly. Like Wikipedia. > > >> them are known to be from trusted sources (The US government, in most cases) >> > > Hmmm, now things start to get emotional. I'd trust any OSS community > member as much as any member of my administration. :) > > >> In Germany, we do automatic >> data imports every few weeks, being it boundaries, village details, >> coast lines, etc. >> >> Well, that data must have a valid license to be able to be imported. I >> suppose that you check that before importing that, don't you? >> > > Sure we do (you know, Germans are infamous for being pedantic). I did > the same with Wikipedia, but I didn't check each and every contribution > to the data, that's right... > > -- > Gernot > > ___ > Talk-es mailing list > Talk-es@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es > ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es
Re: [Talk-es] Please revert Barcelona stations
Hi! Francisco R. Santos schrieb: > Yes, sorry, you are right, I misinterpreted some wiki page. But the > ending is the same: all your data could be reverted in case a copyright > trial is lost. Would be sad for the menweeks I invested, but taken the very minimal chances such a court case will take place and that I additionally don't believe such a case will be won, I can live with that risk. Finally, I'm quite sure: now that the basic data is there as starting point, within 2 month 90% of my data will replaced with corrected versions by local mappers. > All of them have licenses that allows to be imported by us, and all of Exactly. Like Wikipedia. > them are known to be from trusted sources (The US government, in most cases) Hmmm, now things start to get emotional. I'd trust any OSS community member as much as any member of my administration. :) > In Germany, we do automatic > data imports every few weeks, being it boundaries, village details, > coast lines, etc. > > Well, that data must have a valid license to be able to be imported. I > suppose that you check that before importing that, don't you? Sure we do (you know, Germans are infamous for being pedantic). I did the same with Wikipedia, but I didn't check each and every contribution to the data, that's right... -- Gernot ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es
Re: [Talk-es] Please revert Barcelona stations (was:Re: Barcelona - subway stations and routes.)
2009/8/13 Gernot Hillier > Hi! > > Francisco R. Santos schrieb: > > Well, and finally, this is *my risk*. Everyone can see in OSM history > > that I added the data and can prosecute me if he believes there's any > > chance to win such a court case. > > > > The problem isn't that they'll prosecute *you* (OSM data belongs to the > > OSM foundation, so they'll prosecute OSM) > > I don't believe this is correct. > Yes, sorry, you are right, I misinterpreted some wiki page. But the ending is the same: all your data could be reverted in case a copyright trial is lost. > > > I don't follow the legal list, but the perception I have from reading > > the common lists about wikipedia imports is: "it's not fully safe to do > > that, so, don't risk". > > And what about all the other dozens of data imports into OSM which are > nowerdays taking place each day? Think about TIGER data, boundaries and > coast lines as the most prominent example. All of them have licenses that allows to be imported by us, and all of them are known to be from trusted sources (The US government, in most cases) In Germany, we do automatic > data imports every few weeks, being it boundaries, village details, > coast lines, etc. > Well, that data must have a valid license to be able to be imported. I suppose that you check that before importing that, don't you? > Can you say anything about possible infringements of the creator of > these works? You can only assure this person grants you the right to > copy his data and trust him/her. > The problem with wikipedia is not its license, but that most geocoding data is known to be taken from google, and we are *explicitly* prohibited to use it's maps and aerial imagery. A layer *could* say that much of wikipedia geodata is derived work, and so, OSM too. So.. don't risk, thats all I say. ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es
Re: [Talk-es] Please revert Barcelona stations (was:Re: Barcelona - subway stations and routes.)
Hi! Francisco R. Santos schrieb: > Well, and finally, this is *my risk*. Everyone can see in OSM history > that I added the data and can prosecute me if he believes there's any > chance to win such a court case. > > The problem isn't that they'll prosecute *you* (OSM data belongs to the > OSM foundation, so they'll prosecute OSM) I don't believe this is correct. > I don't follow the legal list, but the perception I have from reading > the common lists about wikipedia imports is: "it's not fully safe to do > that, so, don't risk". And what about all the other dozens of data imports into OSM which are nowerdays taking place each day? Think about TIGER data, boundaries and coast lines as the most prominent example. In Germany, we do automatic data imports every few weeks, being it boundaries, village details, coast lines, etc. Can you say anything about possible infringements of the creator of these works? You can only assure this person grants you the right to copy his data and trust him/her. -- Gernot ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es
Re: [Talk-es] Please revert Barcelona stations (was:Re: Barcelona - subway stations and routes.)
2009/8/13 Gernot Hillier > I also just read through > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-May/036582.html - and > a lot of knowledgable people seem to be ok with importing some data from > Wikipedia. Yes, and a lot are against, too. > > Well, and finally, this is *my risk*. Everyone can see in OSM history > that I added the data and can prosecute me if he believes there's any > chance to win such a court case. > The problem isn't that they'll prosecute *you* (OSM data belongs to the OSM foundation, so they'll prosecute OSM), but that all your data and *all future modifications based on that* could be reverted to a state previous to your modifications.. I don't follow the legal list, but the perception I have from reading the common lists about wikipedia imports is: "it's not fully safe to do that, so, don't risk". Quico ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es
Re: [Talk-es] Please revert Barcelona stations (was:Re: Barcelona - subway stations and routes.)
Hi! andrzej zaborowski schrieb: > 2009/8/13 Francisco R. Santos : >> Sorry again, but wikipedia is known to have data from copyrighted sources, >> and so it is also a bad source for OSM. Wikipedia as a source for geodata is >> banned to us, as it was said in the lists once and again. > > It's known that many of the georeferences embedded in wp pages are > derived from google data. This "ban" doesn't apply to any other type > of information, and even there it's not certain that this can ever be > a legal problem because many lawyers believe that information is not > copyrightable. > > It makes no sense to treat any wikipedia data as possible copyright > infringement but treat our data in OSM as clean because both projects > have the same kind of volunteer contributors. And if you can't trust > anybody the only logical way forward for you is to redraw *everything* > in openstreetmap because you can only trust yourself. Well, and finally, this is *my risk*. Everyone can see in OSM history that I added the data and can prosecute me if he believes there's any chance to win such a court case. -- Gernot ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es
Re: [Talk-es] Please revert Barcelona stations (was:Re: Barcelona - subway stations and routes.)
2009/8/13 Francisco R. Santos : > Sorry again, but wikipedia is known to have data from copyrighted sources, > and so it is also a bad source for OSM. Wikipedia as a source for geodata is > banned to us, as it was said in the lists once and again. It's known that many of the georeferences embedded in wp pages are derived from google data. This "ban" doesn't apply to any other type of information, and even there it's not certain that this can ever be a legal problem because many lawyers believe that information is not copyrightable. It makes no sense to treat any wikipedia data as possible copyright infringement but treat our data in OSM as clean because both projects have the same kind of volunteer contributors. And if you can't trust anybody the only logical way forward for you is to redraw *everything* in openstreetmap because you can only trust yourself. Cheers ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es
Re: [Talk-es] Please revert Barcelona stations (was:Re: Barcelona - subway stations and routes.)
Hi Francisco! Francisco R. Santos schrieb: > Sorry again, but wikipedia is known to have data from copyrighted > sources, and so it is also a bad source for OSM. Wikipedia as a source > for geodata is banned to us, as it was said in the lists once and again. > > Please, could you revert all changes you made using wikipedia? Not doing > so may lead to finally deleting *ALL* your edits. > > Please, *PLEASE*, use only sources of data that are known to have a > license compatible with OSM. If you can't find any, just use the ol' > good method of GPS traces. (I know, I know, there are very few sources > with compatible licenses. That is why we are creating OSM :-) Ehrm, sorry, but now I'm really puzzled. Wikipedia content is actually licensed under CC-BY-SA just like OpenStreetMap is. So I really can't understand your concerns here. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wikipedia lists a lot of cooperation areas between OSM and Wikipedia. All of this really sounds contradictory to your statements. Could you please point me to a source which states that Wikipedia data can't be used during mapping? With some real legal arguments? I also just read through http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-May/036582.html - and a lot of knowledgable people seem to be ok with importing some data from Wikipedia. -- Gernot ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es
[Talk-es] Please revert Barcelona stations (was:Re: Barcelona - subway stations and routes.)
Gernot, Sorry again, but wikipedia is known to have data from copyrighted sources, and so it is also a bad source for OSM. Wikipedia as a source for geodata is banned to us, as it was said in the lists once and again. Please, could you revert all changes you made using wikipedia? Not doing so may lead to finally deleting *ALL* your edits. Please, *PLEASE*, use only sources of data that are known to have a license compatible with OSM. If you can't find any, just use the ol' good method of GPS traces. (I know, I know, there are very few sources with compatible licenses. That is why we are creating OSM :-) Thanks, Quico 2009/8/13 Gernot Hillier > Hi there! > > Sorry for self-followup, just wanted to let you know I finished on this > topic for now... > > Gernot Hillier wrote: > >> So if you don't violate any copyright, fell free of mapping what you > >> like, that's OSM. > > > > >> Unfortunately, this information is copyrighted. It should'n be, but it > >> is. So please don't copy. > > Finally, I found another great resource: Wikipedia has a great series of > articles about the Barcelona Metro system > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelona_Metro). > > Here I could find everything I need - even including geo coordinates for > nearly all Metro stations, so it was quite easy to add them to OSM. I > now reworked the lines I already mapped and finished the others. Now all > data is only based on the Wikipedia information. > > For now, I'm quite happy with it. L1/L2/L3/L4/L5/L6/L7/L8/L11 are > hopefully completely mapped (not all done by me, some were already > available). I also reworked the Rodalies lines in Barcelone metropolitan > area a bit. > > Hope you're fine with my additions - I do like them at least. :-D > > BTW: the tram stations remain as an exercise for someone else. :) > > -- > Gernot > > ___ > Talk-es mailing list > Talk-es@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es > ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es
