Re: [Talk-GB] Somerset Levels Flooding
FYI http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=83157src=eoa-iotd On 06/02/2014 00:24, Dave F. wrote: Hi About a week ago user Jestr88 added large areas tagged natural=water; name=flooding. to indicate the flooded areas on the Somerset levels. http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/258412163 Apart from the inaccuracy of these (water levels vary hourly) I thought temporary information was frowned upon. I think they should be removed or am I missing something? Dave F. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Somerset Levels Flooding
On 7 February 2014 12:37, John Baker rovas...@hotmail.com wrote: Always to play the devils advocate. We have all heard about mapping for the renderer but are you mapping for the third party data providers that is slow at updating the planet data. Define slow for a printed atlas? Should we be pulping them each minute? Day? Week? I think we all have different opinions on this (it will likely take months for the work to be done at least 6 weeks was the latest I heard this morning) and don't we pride ourselves about having the most up-to-date information and what is on the ground?! There's a difference between providing up-to-date data, and being unnecessarily misleading. For example, there's a section of the A82 on Loch Lomond that was only one lane wide, and controlled by traffic lights. It was marked as two-way, but at any one instant it is, of course, one-way. Should we have marked it as one-way and flipped the direction every 90 seconds? Of course not. Should remove a railway line when it's closed for overnight engineering works? Is a field flooded for a week now a lake? Permanent versus temporary is very subjective and people will have different opinions. As with anything. But I suspect that a sensible group of people will come to a sensible answer in every case. In the two at hand, the railway is still a railway, and the Levels are fields, not lakes. Unless, of course, there are people who are deliberately looking for an argument... Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Somerset Levels Flooding
On 07/02/2014 12:37, John Baker wrote: Always to play the devils advocate. We have all heard about mapping for the renderer but are you mapping for the third party data providers that is slow at updating the planet data. They should use the data correctly. It is annoying the stale content that some devs/providers provide, maybe it would encourage them to put some effort into updating the content for frequently. Something along the lines of http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/temporary would help, though I think it would benefit from some way of specifying that the start end dates are estimates only. That proposal seems to be languishing, though. -- Cheers, John ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Somerset Levels Flooding
Define slow for a printed atlas? Should we be pulping them each minute? Day? Week? Printed atlas!? So insensitive I carry a globe around. I wonder however what about the providers that do want update their data, say, daily are at a disadvantage if we don't mark these cases. Hence why I suggested maybe a month or so in this broken state maybe we should edit. These parameters will vary between mappers but a threshold maybe we could agree open here. Maybe some still consider estimated 1 year bridge closures is not long enough to consider updating the map. Also maybe it should have more weight to the mapper local to the area (hence your Putney example). And/or how quick it will be monitored and updated.*Shrug* Unless, of course, there are people who are deliberately looking for an argument... ;-) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 12:52:16 + Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Somerset Levels Flooding From: gravityst...@gmail.com To: rovas...@hotmail.com CC: l...@lorp.org; talk-gb@openstreetmap.org On 7 February 2014 12:37, John Baker rovas...@hotmail.com wrote: Always to play the devils advocate. We have all heard about mapping for the renderer but are you mapping for the third party data providers that is slow at updating the planet data. Define slow for a printed atlas? Should we be pulping them each minute? Day? Week? I think we all have different opinions on this (it will likely take months for the work to be done at least 6 weeks was the latest I heard this morning) and don't we pride ourselves about having the most up-to-date information and what is on the ground?! There's a difference between providing up-to-date data, and being unnecessarily misleading. For example, there's a section of the A82 on Loch Lomond that was only one lane wide, and controlled by traffic lights. It was marked as two-way, but at any one instant it is, of course, one-way. Should we have marked it as one-way and flipped the direction every 90 seconds? Of course not. Should remove a railway line when it's closed for overnight engineering works? Is a field flooded for a week now a lake? Permanent versus temporary is very subjective and people will have different opinions. As with anything. But I suspect that a sensible group of people will come to a sensible answer in every case. In the two at hand, the railway is still a railway, and the Levels are fields, not lakes. Unless, of course, there are people who are deliberately looking for an argument... Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Somerset Levels Flooding
Hi - I do add temporary things such as road closures, construction sites. Generally only if it will be there for a while, e.g. a month or more. I agree with Brian's perspective. Dan 2014-02-06 Brian Savidge a_sn...@hotmail.com: I thought temporary information like closures of paths and roads were good to put on the map, if nothing else to allow routing to avoid them. The water I agree is likely to be a bit inaccurate and isn't going to help with the routing, but like a road, those areas will be wet for quite some time (weeks to months), so as long as the person doing it keeps it relatively up to date, I guess there is no real problem. The real problem comes when its not maintained. Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 00:24:31 + From: dave...@madasafish.com To: talk-GB@openstreetmap.org Subject: [Talk-GB] Somerset Levels Flooding Hi About a week ago user Jestr88 added large areas tagged natural=water; name=flooding. to indicate the flooded areas on the Somerset levels. http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/258412163 Apart from the inaccuracy of these (water levels vary hourly) I thought temporary information was frowned upon. I think they should be removed or am I missing something? Dave F. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Somerset Levels Flooding
I think it would be useful to have a means of indicating road closures etc which are different from simply pretending the road doesn't exist or doesn't allow certain users for a while. This would allow renderers to mark closures rather than just gaps or not visible at all, so people see there is a problem; so that user types can be indicated (sometimes bikes can get through a closure, but not cars, or cars but not trucks); and so that (perhaps estimated) end dates can be given so that the restriction can be ignored when the closure didn't get removed - they are easily forgotten. Routers too could say 'I would have taken you this way, but it is closed when you want to travel' I was surprised someone hasn't already removed a section of railway at Dawlish yesterday! But it would be much better IMO if the railway remained, but marked as closed so the map could show, eg, a big red X at that point to illustrate an anomaly, rather than a short gap not really visible at all but the largest scales, David Hi - I do add temporary things such as road closures, construction sites. Generally only if it will be there for a while, e.g. a month or more. I agree with Brian's perspective. Dan 2014-02-06 Brian Savidge a_sn...@hotmail.com: I thought temporary information like closures of paths and roads were good to put on the map, if nothing else to allow routing to avoid them. The water I agree is likely to be a bit inaccurate and isn't going to help with the routing, but like a road, those areas will be wet for quite some time (weeks to months), so as long as the person doing it keeps it relatively up to date, I guess there is no real problem. The real problem comes when its not maintained. Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 00:24:31 + From: dave...@madasafish.com To: talk-GB@openstreetmap.org Subject: [Talk-GB] Somerset Levels Flooding Hi About a week ago user Jestr88 added large areas tagged natural=water; name=flooding. to indicate the flooded areas on the Somerset levels. http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/258412163 Apart from the inaccuracy of these (water levels vary hourly) I thought temporary information was frowned upon. I think they should be removed or am I missing something? Dave F. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Somerset Levels Flooding
How about having theKey: accessandValue: no or possibly Value: delivery or customers if its roads. If you wanted it to showup on the map as red, setting the Value to 'private' as in keep out its a building site would work. Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 09:43:55 + From: da...@frankieandshadow.com To: danstowell+...@gmail.com CC: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Somerset Levels Flooding I think it would be useful to have a means of indicating road closures etc which are different from simply pretending the road doesn't exist or doesn't allow certain users for a while. This would allow renderers to mark closures rather than just gaps or not visible at all, so people see there is a problem; so that user types can be indicated (sometimes bikes can get through a closure, but not cars, or cars but not trucks); and so that (perhaps estimated) end dates can be given so that the restriction can be ignored when the closure didn't get removed - they are easily forgotten. Routers too could say 'I would have taken you this way, but it is closed when you want to travel' I was surprised someone hasn't already removed a section of railway at Dawlish yesterday! But it would be much better IMO if the railway remained, but marked as closed so the map could show, eg, a big red X at that point to illustrate an anomaly, rather than a short gap not really visible at all but the largest scales, David On 6 February 2014 08:40:22 GMT, Dan S wrote: Hi - I do add temporary things such as road closures, construction sites. Generally only if it will be there for a while, e.g. a month or more. I agree with Brian's perspective. Dan 2014-02-06 Brian Savidge : I thought temporary information like closures of paths and roads were good to put on the map, if nothing else to allow routing to avoid them. The water I agree is likely to be a bit inaccurate and isn't going to help with the routing, but like a road, those areas will be wet for quite some time (weeks to months), so as long as the person doing it keeps it relatively up to date, I guess there is no real problem. The real problem comes when its not maintained. Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 00:24:31 + From: dave...@madasafish.com To: talk-GB@openstreetmap.org Subject: [Talk-GB] Somerset Levels Flooding Hi About a week ago user Jestr88 added large areas tagged natural=water; name=flooding. to indicate the flooded areas on the Somerset levels. http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/258412163 Apart from the inaccuracy of these (water levels vary hourly) I thought temporary information was frowned upon. I think they should be removed or am I missing something? Dave F. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Somerset Levels Flooding
Indeed this is surely the right approach. Many people use OSM inside products where the map data is updated rarely: all the offline map apps for mobile come to mind. Temporary states have no place in these apps, and it’s unfair on their devs to force them to work out a long-term state to offer their users. - L On 6 Feb 2014, at 14:36, Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com wrote: On 6 February 2014 09:43, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: I think it would be useful to have a means of indicating road closures etc which are different from simply pretending the road doesn't exist or doesn't allow certain users for a while. I work on the principle of marking the permanent state of features, as much as possible. Obviously everything changes, but if a situation is deliberately temporary (e.g. a road closed for crane operations, or for a fortnight for digging, etc) then I don't change the 'permanent state' of the feature. We had a trunk road in Putney that was one-way for three months, but I didn't change the map to correspond since it was clearly not permanent. And I'd encourage people not to mark flooding as natural=water, or removing bits of railway when they are certainly going to repair it, or even adding access=no tags to something that might be fixed by the weekend. If it's deemed important by people to mark the temporary state somehow, then please use a separate tagging system. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Somerset Levels Flooding
Hi About a week ago user Jestr88 added large areas tagged natural=water; name=flooding. to indicate the flooded areas on the Somerset levels. http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/258412163 Apart from the inaccuracy of these (water levels vary hourly) I thought temporary information was frowned upon. I think they should be removed or am I missing something? Dave F. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Somerset Levels Flooding
I thought temporary information like closures of paths and roads were good to put on the map, if nothing else to allow routing to avoid them. The water I agree is likely to be a bit inaccurate and isn't going to help with the routing, but like a road, those areas will be wet for quite some time (weeks to months), so as long as the person doing it keeps it relatively up to date, I guess there is no real problem. The real problem comes when its not maintained. Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2014 00:24:31 + From: dave...@madasafish.com To: talk-GB@openstreetmap.org Subject: [Talk-GB] Somerset Levels Flooding Hi About a week ago user Jestr88 added large areas tagged natural=water; name=flooding. to indicate the flooded areas on the Somerset levels. http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/258412163 Apart from the inaccuracy of these (water levels vary hourly) I thought temporary information was frowned upon. I think they should be removed or am I missing something? Dave F. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
