Re: [OSM-talk-ie] FYI: N Route re-designations as Motorways
Second try, sent it only to Tom at first: I have resurveyed the Ashbourne Bypass. Although the resigning isn't yet complete, you cannot enter the section to be reclassified without passing signage that indicates it to be a motorway called the M2. On the strength of this, I have retagged it on the map - so if you are surprised to see it turn blue this soon, it's because I'm mapping what's on the ground :) Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
Re: [OSM-talk-ie] FYI: N Route re-designations as Motorways
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 06:42:18PM +0100, Thomas Bibby wrote: > > N7: Limerick Bypass section, but how much of it? > > From the roundabout at start of the dual carriageway bypass (junction > with under construction motorway), to the R511 overbridge (a few > hundred metres before the N7/N20 interchange roundabout, strangely) > > > N20: Anybody know exactly how much of it? > > The SI [1] says from 660m south of the N7/N20 roundabout, which is > about mid-way between the roundabout and the first offramp on the N20 > (interestingly enough this offramp got a single blue sign showing the > exit, none anywhere else on the N20), to where the N20 branches off > and the N21 goes straight on. Just a thought, but are these points the official boundary of the Limerick Tunnel scheme, in particular the new N20/N7 interchange which is mentioned separately? The 50km/hr temporary speed limit on the N20 northbound starts quite a bit before you see any roadworks, for instance. Andrew ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
Re: [OSM-talk-ie] FYI: N Route re-designations as Motorways
2009/7/15 Thomas Bibby : >> N7: Limerick Bypass section, but how much of it? > > From the roundabout at start of the dual carriageway bypass (junction > with under construction motorway), to the R511 overbridge (a few > hundred metres before the N7/N20 interchange roundabout, strangely) Well that's just daft. I certainly won't be tagging any motorway starts that occur in the middle of nowhere, as it's not useful data. Is a driver really supposed to be able to drive right up to a badly-located chopsticks sign and _then_ worry about being prohibited from going any further. > The SI [1] says from 660m south of the N7/N20 roundabout, which is > about mid-way between the roundabout and the first offramp on the N20 > (interestingly enough this offramp got a single blue sign showing the > exit, none anywhere else on the N20), to where the N20 branches off > and the N21 goes straight on. Thanks for the reference. I think we'd be well-served to snap these values to the nearest junction. Anything else is just daft. Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
Re: [OSM-talk-ie] FYI: N Route re-designations as Motorways
> N7: Limerick Bypass section, but how much of it? >From the roundabout at start of the dual carriageway bypass (junction with under construction motorway), to the R511 overbridge (a few hundred metres before the N7/N20 interchange roundabout, strangely) > N20: Anybody know exactly how much of it? The SI [1] says from 660m south of the N7/N20 roundabout, which is about mid-way between the roundabout and the first offramp on the N20 (interestingly enough this offramp got a single blue sign showing the exit, none anywhere else on the N20), to where the N20 branches off and the N21 goes straight on. Thomas. [1] http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/10978-SI_255_OF_2009-0.pdf ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
Re: [OSM-talk-ie] FYI: N Route re-designations as Motorways
Hmm, I nearly forgot, the N18 from Shannon Airport to beyond Ennis is I think also to be done. More on that inline... 2009/7/15 Thomas Pedoussaut : > It probably will only start south of "Arklow North" (exit 20), because > the northern part of the dual carriageway has T style exits that aren't > motorway grade. You mean a compact grade separated junction? I _think_ these are being accepted on redesignated motorways. Certainly they exist on the N18 Ennis Bypass which is due to be upclassified. > The southern limit will be a few hundred meters from the end of the > current dul carriageway, as there are a few farms directly connected to > the carriageway. This is going to be an interesting one - even though they seem to be planning to at the Cork end of the M8, you can't really start or end a motorway without a pair of exit/entry ramps to cater for non-motorway traffic. If it leads inescapably to a motorway, it's a motorway. If you can only get to it from a motorway, that's a motorway too. But we can also check the legal documents published on this, they contain the truth even if it's a wacky truth :) Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
Re: [OSM-talk-ie] FYI: N Route re-designations as Motorways
Just about my local knowledge of the N11, Dermot McNally wrote: > N11 Arklow and Gorey Bypasses > It probably will only start south of "Arklow North" (exit 20), because the northern part of the dual carriageway has T style exits that aren't motorway grade. Southbound from there, all the road is motorway-grade to the end of the current construction, just before Camolin. > N11 Rathnew/Ashford, though the northern extent here will need to be checked. > Same, the northern limit part is really fuzzy in my mind, seems the same grade to me once passed Kilpedder. The southern limit will be a few hundred meters from the end of the current dul carriageway, as there are a few farms directly connected to the carriageway. I'll give you the exact loction once the proper signage will be in place. -- Thomas ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
Re: [OSM-talk-ie] FYI: N Route re-designations as Motorways
Hi Richard, As the person who ratagged the last batch of roads to be redesignated, I'll offer some comments inline: 2009/7/15 Richard Cantwell : > Just a quick heads-up, if you havent heard elsewhere, the Motorway > re-designation scheme is coming into effect on August 28th. Details here: > http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0714/1224250638091.html That's a dreadful article from start to finish, and that includes the standard of English in it. A few points about the contents: The M3: This was planned from the start to be motorway and is being built under a motorway order. There _is_ a redesignation planned for an existing piece of N3 (north of the northbound Clonee exit) which is to become M3, but they can't physically perform this redesignation until the southernmost part of the new M3 is complete (including link roads) as far north as Pace. As Tom points out, the bulk of the roads to be affected are currently under construction. While not being constructed under motorway orders, those schemes that are far enough advanced to have signage erected and lines painted have already been constructed as motorways in waiting, and our OSM tagging reflects this (witness the long stripey blue lines running alongside the N7 and N9). Each such scheme that opens will simply be retagged from construction to real, a process which generally takes 5 minutes with JOSM. Traditionally I've tended to be the person sad enough to do that retagging once the opening ceremony has completed. > It would be demonstrative of the power of crowdsourced data if we could > ensure that our data gets updated that day to reflect the changes > instantaneously. I imagine it will be a year or two before OSi re-issue the > Discovery Series (1:50,000) with the changes shown. It will also be > interesting to see how long it takes TeleAtlas (and thus Google) to update > their mapping. I totally agree. The last batch of redesignations, which included the M6 from Kinnegad to Kilbeggan (and the then newly-opened piece from Kilbeggan to Athlone) was done within a day or so of the order, and it only took that long because I had to survey the newly opened piece. I think that redesignation also incorporated the Carlow Bypass, but I had already tagged that as motorway since the blue signs were already up and it was in a kind of limbo where the eventual road class seemed closest to What Was On The Ground. > I'm not too familiar with the tagging process, but might it be an option to > prepare for this event by adding a tag to all of the sections of N Road > which are about to change, so that they can be easily changed on the day > itself? I'm with Tom on this one - it takes no time at all to use JOSM to select all the ways involved and bulk update the ref and highway tags (because that's all you have to touch). A second retag for the ramps and it's oxo. It only requires that the retagger know the exact extent of what's to be retagged. From recollection (since the article is little help), you're looking at the following: Dualled part of N2 north of Brock Inn exit N4 as far a McNead's Bridge, but it's a featureless road on the map and we'll need to check where the terminal junction is N11 Arklow and Gorey Bypasses N11 Rathnew/Ashford, though the northern extent here will need to be checked. _Not_ N3 Clonee Bypass for the time being, as the M3 will have to be complete to Pace for this. N8 Glanmire Bypass. This is troublesome as the Act specifies this as commencing 300ish m north of Dunkettle roundabout, meaning northbound traffic has no escape route. Logic dictates the entire northbound way from Dunkettle be tagged (the viral nature of motorway status), but I can see this being open to dispute N7: Limerick Bypass section, but how much of it? N20: Anybody know exactly how much of it? If we can find somebody with local knowledge for each one, I'd say we can do it easily enough. We have plenty of time to plan it. Dermot -- -- Iren sind menschlich ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
Re: [OSM-talk-ie] FYI: N Route re-designations as Motorways
Richard Cantwell wrote: > Good Afternoon All. > > Just a quick heads-up, if you havent heard elsewhere, the Motorway > re-designation scheme is coming into effect on August 28th. Details here: > http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0714/1224250638091.html thanks! We might need to check against the actual Roads Act in the statutebook once that is being published. The latest I could find was last year's: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2008/en/si/0279.html However, the list apparently refers to a mix of roads that are either completed, under construction or planned only. If I look e.g. at "the N9 from Dublin to Waterford", many sections are still a clay track currently. Even last year's road act has a disclaimer that "This Order applies only to high quality dual carriageways which were already built, under construction or in planning..." > It would be demonstrative of the power of crowdsourced data if we could > ensure that our data gets updated that day to reflect the changes > instantaneously. Since the roads are at a different stage, the practical side would not be a single day of switching. Many motorway sections under construction are in OSM already, tagged as 'highway=construction' and 'construction=motorway'. For dual carriageways already in use it would be simply a change form 'highway=trunk' to 'highway=motorway' (and for the link roads appropriately). > I imagine it will be a year or two before OSi re-issue the > Discovery Series (1:50,000) with the changes shown. It will also be > interesting to see how long it takes TeleAtlas (and thus Google) to update > their mapping. Well they are terribly slow as we know. And while there is a 5th edition of sheet 50 of the OS series, most of the country is still stuck with the 2nd which misses lots of local development, bypasses and new R-roads. Their electronic map is a bit more up-to-date, so they are just too lazy to render new print versions. Teleatlas has still many mistakes, R559 in Dingle my favourite one. Up to last year it was even routed across the mountain! http://tools.geofabrik.de/mc/?mt0=mapnik&mt1=googlehybrid&lon=-10.4589&lat=52.14379&zoom=15 Their tagging of road classifications is also inconsistent throughout the country so that roads or the same class are rendered differently. > I'm not too familiar with the tagging process, but might it be an option to > prepare for this event by adding a tag to all of the sections of N Road > which are about to change, so that they can be easily changed on the day > itself? I think this would be more effort in preparing such an extra tag. Changing a road from N to M would cost only a minute, once the blue signs appear in the field. Tom ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
[OSM-talk-ie] FYI: N Route re-designations as Motorways
Good Afternoon All. Just a quick heads-up, if you havent heard elsewhere, the Motorway re-designation scheme is coming into effect on August 28th. Details here: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0714/1224250638091.html It would be demonstrative of the power of crowdsourced data if we could ensure that our data gets updated that day to reflect the changes instantaneously. I imagine it will be a year or two before OSi re-issue the Discovery Series (1:50,000) with the changes shown. It will also be interesting to see how long it takes TeleAtlas (and thus Google) to update their mapping. I'm not too familiar with the tagging process, but might it be an option to prepare for this event by adding a tag to all of the sections of N Road which are about to change, so that they can be easily changed on the day itself? regards, Richard -=- Richard Cantwell ___ Talk-ie mailing list Talk-ie@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
