Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On 10/20/2010 05:51 PM, Anthony wrote: On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: I’d put town at 7, city and village at 8, based on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_New_York#Town and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_New_York#Village Specifically, "Villages are a third layer of government, which are usually overlaid inside a town, and co-administer with the town, county, and state." and "To be incorporated, the area of the proposed village must have at least 500 inhabitants and not be part of an existing city or village." I don't know. "Cities are neither part of nor subordinate to towns except for the city of Sherrill, which for some purposes is treated as if it were a village of the town of Vernon." If you're going to use 7 and 8, wouldn't 7 be city/town, and 8 be village? (Or, IMO more consistent with the rest of the US, 8=city/town and 9=village)? I would, but villages are (by my understanding) closer to what any other municipality is in the rest of the US. I don’t think/know that a lower level (higher number) admin_level necessarily implies that it must be, or can be, within a higher level (lower number) admin_level. They’re just there to give an indication of equivalence. —Alex Mauer “hawke” ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Anthony wrote: > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 6:50 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 6:39 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: >>> On 10/20/2010 05:37 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: Why can't something with admin_level=x cross a border with admin_level less than x? There are a lot of cities that are in more than one county. >>> >>> Agreed, though I think New York City is a special case since it actually >>> encompasses several counties rather than simply being a part of several >>> counties. >> >> I wouldn't exactly call it a special case - many cities are >> coextensive with counties, and (I believe) New York City and New York >> County were the same until 1874. > > New York City is coextensive with 5 counties, and is subordinate to > none of them. I don't know if it's unique in that sense. But I don't > think it matters whether or not it is. I also don't care all that much about mapping New York. If you disagree with me, I'm not going to argue about it. I am willing to provide my reasoning if you'd like. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 6:50 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 6:39 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: >> On 10/20/2010 05:37 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: >>> >>> Why can't something with admin_level=x cross a border with admin_level >>> less than x? There are a lot of cities that are in more than one >>> county. >> >> Agreed, though I think New York City is a special case since it actually >> encompasses several counties rather than simply being a part of several >> counties. > > I wouldn't exactly call it a special case - many cities are > coextensive with counties, and (I believe) New York City and New York > County were the same until 1874. New York City is coextensive with 5 counties, and is subordinate to none of them. I don't know if it's unique in that sense. But I don't think it matters whether or not it is. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: > I’d put town at 7, city and village at 8, based on > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_New_York#Town and > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_New_York#Village > > Specifically, "Villages are a third layer of government, which are usually > overlaid inside a town, and co-administer with the town, county, and state." > and "To be incorporated, the area of the proposed village must have at least > 500 inhabitants and not be part of an existing city or village." I don't know. "Cities are neither part of nor subordinate to towns except for the city of Sherrill, which for some purposes is treated as if it were a village of the town of Vernon." If you're going to use 7 and 8, wouldn't 7 be city/town, and 8 be village? (Or, IMO more consistent with the rest of the US, 8=city/town and 9=village)? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 6:39 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: > On 10/20/2010 05:37 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: >> >> Why can't something with admin_level=x cross a border with admin_level >> less than x? There are a lot of cities that are in more than one >> county. > > Agreed, though I think New York City is a special case since it actually > encompasses several counties rather than simply being a part of several > counties. I wouldn't exactly call it a special case - many cities are coextensive with counties, and (I believe) New York City and New York County were the same until 1874. Then NYC began expanding by taking over unincorporated and incorporated areas, and its boundaries now happen to lie along county lines. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Possible method for identifying major US cities
The US Census Bureau has something called a Statistical Area: http://www.census.gov/population/www/metroareas/metrodef.html The actual areas are based on county lines (except in New England), but may have more than one "principal city". For example, the Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL Metropolitan Statistical Area has principal cities of Tampa, St. Petersburg, Clearwater, and Largo, and the Albany-Lebanon, OR Micropolitan Statistical Area has principal cities of Albany and Lebanon. This gives us two levels of importance for these "principal cities" - those that are part of a Metropolitan Statistical Area and those that are part of a Micropolitan Statistical Area. (Note that a principal city can be a town or even an unincorporated census-designated place.) The main disadvantage I can find is that these are based on population, and may omit historically important places; for example, St. Augustine is within the Jacksonville, FL Metropolitan Statistical Area, but is not a principal city, while the significantly more populous but much newer Palm Coast (to the south) has its own MSA. If you're interested in the topic, please take a look at http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/assets/bulletins/b10-02.pdf (lists starting on pages 29, 64, and (for New England) 141) and see if it roughly matches your idea of what the major cities are in your area. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On 10/20/2010 05:37 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: Why can't something with admin_level=x cross a border with admin_level less than x? There are a lot of cities that are in more than one county. Agreed, though I think New York City is a special case since it actually encompasses several counties rather than simply being a part of several counties. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 6:13 PM, Anthony wrote: > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:49 PM, Anthony wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Anthony wrote: >>> Oh, I'm only planning on doing PA, NJ, and FL. Also maybe NY, as it's >>> the other one of the four states I've lived in. >> >> Okay, well, I started New York, and concluded that it doesn't fit into >> the design of admin_levels. > > Hmm, maybe this would work: > > 2=national border > 4=state border > 5=New York City border > 6=county/borough border > 8=city/town border (other than NYC and Sherrill) Why can't something with admin_level=x cross a border with admin_level less than x? There are a lot of cities that are in more than one county. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On 10/20/2010 05:13 PM, Anthony wrote: On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:49 PM, Anthony wrote: On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Anthony wrote: Oh, I'm only planning on doing PA, NJ, and FL. Also maybe NY, as it's the other one of the four states I've lived in. Okay, well, I started New York, and concluded that it doesn't fit into the design of admin_levels. Hmm, maybe this would work: 2=national border 4=state border 5=New York City border 6=county/borough border 8=city/town border (other than NYC and Sherrill) villages - don't use admin_level I’d put town at 7, city and village at 8, based on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_New_York#Town and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_New_York#Village Specifically, "Villages are a third layer of government, which are usually overlaid inside a town, and co-administer with the town, county, and state." and "To be incorporated, the area of the proposed village must have at least 500 inhabitants and not be part of an existing city or village." City of Sherrill - is treated like a village of the town of Vernon City of Geneva - is located within both the counties of Ontario and Seneca, although the section in Seneca county has no population and is all water. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:49 PM, Anthony wrote: > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Anthony wrote: >> Oh, I'm only planning on doing PA, NJ, and FL. Also maybe NY, as it's >> the other one of the four states I've lived in. > > Okay, well, I started New York, and concluded that it doesn't fit into > the design of admin_levels. Hmm, maybe this would work: 2=national border 4=state border 5=New York City border 6=county/borough border 8=city/town border (other than NYC and Sherrill) villages - don't use admin_level City of Sherrill - is treated like a village of the town of Vernon City of Geneva - is located within both the counties of Ontario and Seneca, although the section in Seneca county has no population and is all water. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
Not that it matters greatly for this discussion, but in Minnesota municipalities do include cities and townships. Ex: https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?year=2010&id=462.352 (subd. 2) or https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=200.02 (subd. 9). Definitions aren't the same in every state... On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:34 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: > On 10/20/2010 04:07 PM, Brad Neuhauser wrote: > >> Only in those states, of course. In Pennsylvania and New Jersey (and >>> apparently the Dakotas?) it should remain admin_level=8. >>> >>> >>> FYI, it's the same with Minnesota: cities and townships are legally >> different forms of municipalities (one incorporated, one unincorporated). >> > > No, that’s a contradiction in terms. “unincorporated” basically means > “outside of a municipality”. Hence people talking about New Jersey being > “fully incorporated” while Minnesota is not: Every place in NJ is part of a > municipality. > > > Minnesota also has unorganized areas, which are legally under the >> jurisdiction of the county, but which may have clusters of population that >> would warrant a place in OSM (call them what you will--village, hamlet >> whatever) >> > > Unsurprisingly, Wisconsin is similar. place=hamlet is the thing to use for > these, but it’s irrelevant to the admin_level as there is no administrative > boundary for unincorporated communities. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unincorporated_area discusses both of these > topics. > > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > tagg...@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Anthony wrote: > Oh, I'm only planning on doing PA, NJ, and FL. Also maybe NY, as it's > the other one of the four states I've lived in. Okay, well, I started New York, and concluded that it doesn't fit into the design of admin_levels. --- "[New York City] consists of the entire area of five counties (named New York, Kings, Queens, Bronx, and Richmond). While these counties have no county government, boroughs — with boundaries coterminus with the county boundaries — each have a Borough Board made up of the Borough President, the borough's district council members, and the chairpersons of the borough's community boards." "In New York, a town is the major division of each county (excluding the five counties that comprise New York City)." "Whereas cities and villages can cross county boundaries, all towns in New York are within a single county." "Villages are a third layer of government, which are usually overlaid inside a town, and co-administer with the town, county, and state." "The village of Pomona...in Rockland County is partly within two different towns." --- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_New_York ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
Anthony writes: > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Anthony wrote: >> At the very least it would be nice to have a table outlining exactly >> what "municipality" or "minor civil division" means for each state. >> Is there one somewhere already? Should I start one? > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_municipalities Looks like a good start. Why don't we work on filling this in and see where we end up? It would be nice to have some kind of tree-like layout indicating for each state which entities are strict subsets of another, which are on the same level as another, and which have an unclear relationship. -- Peter Budny \ Georgia Tech \ CS PhD student \ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:15 PM, Brad Neuhauser wrote: > To save you some work, you might look at this report, Government > Organization, published in 2002 by the > Census: http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/gc021x1.pdf Oh, I'm only planning on doing PA, NJ, and FL. Also maybe NY, as it's the other one of the four states I've lived in. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
To save you some work, you might look at this report, Government Organization, published in 2002 by the Census: http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/gc021x1.pdf On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:59 PM, Anthony wrote: > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Anthony wrote: > > At the very least it would be nice to have a table outlining exactly > > what "municipality" or "minor civil division" means for each state. > > Is there one somewhere already? Should I start one? > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_municipalities > > Can someone please turn off my need to constantly enter a capatcha > (User:User_5528)? > > ___ > Talk-us mailing list > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Anthony wrote: > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:09 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Anthony wrote: >>> Okay, here's another wrench to throw in: >>> >>> In Pennsylvania: "School districts can comprise of one single >>> municipality, like the School District of Philadelphia or can comprise >>> of multiple municipalities." >>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_government_in_Pennsylvania) >>> >>> So, are Pennsylvania school districts admin_level=7? >> >> Are school districts administrative boundaries in the first place? >> > By the common definition, yes. For the purposes of OSM? I don't > know, that's my question. Okay, I'm going to go with no, for the sole reason that some school districts are located in multiple counties, and some counties have multiple school districts. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:09 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Anthony wrote: >> Okay, here's another wrench to throw in: >> >> In Pennsylvania: "School districts can comprise of one single >> municipality, like the School District of Philadelphia or can comprise >> of multiple municipalities." >> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_government_in_Pennsylvania) >> >> So, are Pennsylvania school districts admin_level=7? > > Are school districts administrative boundaries in the first place? > By the common definition, yes. For the purposes of OSM? I don't know, that's my question. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Anthony wrote: > Okay, here's another wrench to throw in: > > In Pennsylvania: "School districts can comprise of one single > municipality, like the School District of Philadelphia or can comprise > of multiple municipalities." > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_government_in_Pennsylvania) > > So, are Pennsylvania school districts admin_level=7? Are school districts administrative boundaries in the first place? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: > On 10/20/2010 03:23 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: >>> >>> admin_level=7 it is. >> >> Only in those states, of course. In Pennsylvania and New Jersey (and >> apparently the Dakotas?) it should remain admin_level=8. > > Why the Dakotas? Read the link you provided: "In the remaining nine town or township states (Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, North Dakota, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, and Wisconsin), there is no geographic overlapping of these two kinds of units." (In Wisconsin and the New England states they're called towns.) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
Okay, here's another wrench to throw in: In Pennsylvania: "School districts can comprise of one single municipality, like the School District of Philadelphia or can comprise of multiple municipalities." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_government_in_Pennsylvania) So, are Pennsylvania school districts admin_level=7? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:23 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: > > On 10/20/2010 03:01 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: > >> > >> Townships are at the same level as cities/towns/villages/other > >> municipalities[1], [2]. I’m sure someone correct me if I’m wrong, but my > >> understanding is you won’t find a chunk of land that is both > >> “city|village|etc.” and “township” simultaneously; cities et al. can > >> annex portions of townships easily, but they then are no longer part of > >> that township. > > > > Scratch that. Eleven states allow overlap[1]: > > > > Indiana, Connecticut, Illinois, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, > > Nebraska, New York, Ohio, and Vermont > > (note that these are not all called townships: > http://www.census.gov/govs/go/township_terms.html) > > > > admin_level=7 it is. > > Only in those states, of course. In Pennsylvania and New Jersey (and > apparently the Dakotas?) it should remain admin_level=8. > > > FYI, it's the same with Minnesota: cities and townships are legally different forms of municipalities (one incorporated, one unincorporated). Minnesota also has unorganized areas, which are legally under the jurisdiction of the county, but which may have clusters of population that would warrant a place in OSM (call them what you will--village, hamlet whatever) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Anthony wrote: > At the very least it would be nice to have a table outlining exactly > what "municipality" or "minor civil division" means for each state. > Is there one somewhere already? Should I start one? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_municipalities Can someone please turn off my need to constantly enter a capatcha (User:User_5528)? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: > On 10/20/2010 03:24 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote: >> >> Not all US states use the same administrative hierarchy. > > Yeah, but for example we use the same admin_level regardless of whether it’s > called a county, a borough, or a parish; or a township vs. a town, etc. > > When we’re using different words for the same thing[1], there’s no need to > differentiate. It’s the thing we care about, not the word used for it. > > 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_civil_division So far all (three) of the states I've checked fit fine with admin_level=6 for county equivalent, and admin_level=8 for municipality. I'm not sure if that'll work for the other 47, though. If it does, great. If not, use the current standards for the default and then have a different hierarchy for the exceptions? At the very least it would be nice to have a table outlining exactly what "municipality" or "minor civil division" means for each state. Is there one somewhere already? Should I start one? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:21 PM, Anthony wrote: > None of this has anything to do with place=*, which discusses > settlements, not administrative divisions. IOW, a municipality may also be a settlement, but then, it may not be. On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: > On 10/20/2010 03:14 PM, Anthony wrote: >> >> Only in those 11 states, right? >> >> I'm surprised admin level isn't already handled defined on a state by >> state level. > > Why treat it differently depending on the state? Why not treat all of Europe the same? You treat it differently depending on the state, because each state is administered differently. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: > On 10/20/2010 03:14 PM, Anthony wrote: >> >> Only in those 11 states, right? >> >> I'm surprised admin level isn't already handled defined on a state by >> state level. > > Why treat it differently depending on the state? Because states do things so differently that a one-size-fits-all solution makes no sense. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
Anthony writes: > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: >> On 10/20/2010 03:01 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: >>> >>> Townships are at the same level as cities/towns/villages/other >>> municipalities[1], [2]. I’m sure someone correct me if I’m wrong, but my >>> understanding is you won’t find a chunk of land that is both >>> “city|village|etc.” and “township” simultaneously; cities et al. can >>> annex portions of townships easily, but they then are no longer part of >>> that township. >> >> Scratch that. Eleven states allow overlap[1]: >> >> Indiana, Connecticut, Illinois, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, >> Nebraska, New York, Ohio, and Vermont >> >> admin_level=7 it is. > > Only in those 11 states, right? > > I'm surprised admin level isn't already handled defined on a state by > state level. No objection from me. It'll make things a little more complicated, but it's the best way to match the tags to what they actually represent. -- Peter Budny \ Georgia Tech \ CS PhD student \ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: > On 10/20/2010 03:01 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: >> >> Townships are at the same level as cities/towns/villages/other >> municipalities[1], [2]. I’m sure someone correct me if I’m wrong, but my >> understanding is you won’t find a chunk of land that is both >> “city|village|etc.” and “township” simultaneously; cities et al. can >> annex portions of townships easily, but they then are no longer part of >> that township. > > Scratch that. Eleven states allow overlap[1]: > > Indiana, Connecticut, Illinois, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, > Nebraska, New York, Ohio, and Vermont (note that these are not all called townships: http://www.census.gov/govs/go/township_terms.html) > > admin_level=7 it is. Only in those states, of course. In Pennsylvania and New Jersey (and apparently the Dakotas?) it should remain admin_level=8. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Peter Budny wrote: > Anthony writes: > >> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Peter Budny wrote: >>> Anthony writes: >>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Jim McAndrew wrote: > There are townships in other states that are managed differently, but in > PA > and NJ, they are just county subdivisions, and are not points to put on a > map. I think you're right here, though I probably would indicate the township boundaries on most maps in a similar (though somewhat less prominent) manner to county boundaries - at least at certain zoom levels. >>> >>> It sounds like you may have just found a use for the missing >>> admin_level=7 in the US. >> >> What's wrong with admin_level=8? > > According to Wikipedia, many townships are an intermediate form of > government below the county level but above (or sometimes merely > separate from) a city/municipality, although it varies by state (New > Jersey being one of the exceptions). Pennsylvania is another one of the exceptions, and that's the state this thread was initiated to talk about. > So that would give us > > County -> admin_level=6 > Township (if they exist) -> admin_level=7 > City/municipality/town/village boundary -> admin_level=8 New Jersey and Pennsylvania townships should be at the same admin_level as cities and boroughs. As for "municipality", in NJ and PA, that means city, borough, or township (or, in NJ, town or village). Other states would potentially be different. In Florida, towns, cities, and villages (which are all just different terms for the same thing, "municipality") would all be admin_level=8, because they're all the same thing. But Florida is not fully incorporated, so not all areas of Florida would exist within an admin_level=8. None of this has anything to do with place=*, which discusses settlements, not administrative divisions. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: > On 10/20/2010 03:01 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: >> >> Townships are at the same level as cities/towns/villages/other >> municipalities[1], [2]. I’m sure someone correct me if I’m wrong, but my >> understanding is you won’t find a chunk of land that is both >> “city|village|etc.” and “township” simultaneously; cities et al. can >> annex portions of townships easily, but they then are no longer part of >> that township. > > Scratch that. Eleven states allow overlap[1]: > > Indiana, Connecticut, Illinois, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, > Nebraska, New York, Ohio, and Vermont > > admin_level=7 it is. Only in those 11 states, right? I'm surprised admin level isn't already handled defined on a state by state level. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Peter Budny wrote:
> Anthony writes:
>
>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Jim McAndrew wrote:
>>> There are townships in other states that are managed differently, but in PA
>>> and NJ, they are just county subdivisions, and are not points to put on a
>>> map.
>>
>> I think you're right here, though I probably would indicate the
>> township boundaries on most maps in a similar (though somewhat less
>> prominent) manner to county boundaries - at least at certain zoom
>> levels.
>
> It sounds like you may have just found a use for the missing
> admin_level=7 in the US.
No, at least in New Jersey and Pennsylvania, townships are the same
level of government as cities and towns. In a more urban county you
can see this more clearly:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Essex_County,_New_Jersey_Municipalities.png
Some are silly reorganizations to take advantage of funding rules
("City of Orange Township") but some are simply the urban remnants of
once-larger townships.
I've used admin_level=7 for Disney's Reedy Creek Improvement District,
which encompasses two cities and some other land.
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Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Peter Budny wrote: > Anthony writes: > >> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Jim McAndrew wrote: >>> There are townships in other states that are managed differently, but in PA >>> and NJ, they are just county subdivisions, and are not points to put on a >>> map. >> >> I think you're right here, though I probably would indicate the >> township boundaries on most maps in a similar (though somewhat less >> prominent) manner to county boundaries - at least at certain zoom >> levels. > > It sounds like you may have just found a use for the missing > admin_level=7 in the US. What's wrong with admin_level=8? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On 10/20/2010 02:42 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: Perhaps we need to shift the discussion to actually figuring out a better replacement for place=*? place=incorporated? I’d try to find something that wouldn’t exclude unincorporated communities ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unincorporated_area#United_States ) —Alex Mauer “hawke” ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
Anthony writes: > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Jim McAndrew wrote: >> There are townships in other states that are managed differently, but in PA >> and NJ, they are just county subdivisions, and are not points to put on a >> map. > > I think you're right here, though I probably would indicate the > township boundaries on most maps in a similar (though somewhat less > prominent) manner to county boundaries - at least at certain zoom > levels. It sounds like you may have just found a use for the missing admin_level=7 in the US. -- Peter Budny \ Georgia Tech \ CS PhD student \ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
Alex Mauer writes: > On 10/20/2010 01:43 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: >> I guess that Tübingen is more known to the average German then >> Reutlingen, but that's just a guess. As written before, traditionally >> cartographers gave more importance to Tübingen, while in current >> automated internet cartography Tübingen looses almost always against >> Reutlingen. Maybe this is a reflection of a changed interpretation of >> importance but I fear it is simply a loss in quality... > > Probably a bit of both. > > Some more complicated set of heuristics for scoring the prominence of > a place would definitely be useful here (and everywhere). > > It all depends upon what one wants to emphasise on a map. > > One possible course of action would be to update the renderers to use > population (or a more complicated system) and then deprecate the > place=* tag for municipalities. (place=island and place=islet > obviously aren’t relevant to this discussion). > > Perhaps we need to shift the discussion to actually figuring out a > better replacement for place=*? I think you've hit the nail on the head. This discussion seems to have highlighted the inadequacy of place=* for deciding label size and prominence, since there are so many factors that go in to those decisions, and the factors change depending on the particular kind of map you're trying to create. As complicated as it sounds, I think Martin may be on the right track: a relation (or node) containing statistics (population, area, number of universities, number of university students, number of airports, number of harbors, whether it's a national/state capitol, whether it's a highway control city, whether it's a "global" city, etc.) which renderers can plug in to a formula that will give them a score to determine how it wants to render each label. -- Peter Budny \ Georgia Tech \ CS PhD student \ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: > Perhaps we need to shift the discussion to actually figuring out a better > replacement for place=*? place=incorporated? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Jim McAndrew wrote: > There are townships in other states that are managed differently, but in PA > and NJ, they are just county subdivisions, and are not points to put on a > map. I think you're right here, though I probably would indicate the township boundaries on most maps in a similar (though somewhat less prominent) manner to county boundaries - at least at certain zoom levels. And, of course, it all depends on the map. In certain maps of the county (like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Mifflin_County_Pennsylvania_With_Municipal_and_Township_Labels.png), townships may very well play a prominent role. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Do City Labels look funny to you?
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 6:00 PM, Ian Dees wrote: > On the contrary: I say all these critiques indicate the need for a > - More granular city name placement based closer on population than on the > place tag Place looks broken in some parts of US because some mappers choose to ignore existing practice for the basing the place tag on population. One reason that OSM has used place=city/town/village/hamlet as shorthand for population, if i remember the conversation correctly from 3-4 years ago, is that the UK Ordnance Survey claimed copyright on the population on signs in UK. So we couldn't just plunk that data into OSM. What remained, that a city is a city, and larger than a town, was what was available. So we agreed on arbitrary, and imperfect, guidelines of 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 to divide them. And that we would use that relative scale as a good guideline for prominence. US doesn't have the same restriction on the use of population data. So population should be entered from good data where we have it. No question there. You want to render prominence based on population, absolutely, do so. That US also has "legal incorporation status" which uses some of the same values the OSM uses for place is just a "false friend". Legal incorporation status should be accurately recorded in a legal incorporation status tag. Misusing place= because the values match leg_inc_stat= is just silly. Just because building=yes and oneway=yes are well used tags does not mean that all buildings are oneway. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Alex Mauer wrote: > (4) some people correctly use the place=* tag to reflect the government of > a place rather than the population because they put the population in the > population=* tag. Fixed for you. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
Pennsylvania township administrative lines were added with the Tiger 2000 import, they do not have point data associated with them, and I have found them to be mostly correct in location. I don't believe there is any reason to add these municipalities as places on the map as point data, for they do not have a traditional center. As far as Pennsylvania and New Jersey are concerned, a township isn't really a point place. These townships were set up to govern a portion of a county. Many townships offer minimal services. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Township_%28Pennsylvania%29) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Township_%28New_Jersey%29) There are a few exceptions to this because some townships have grown extremely large in the past 50 years, and these two states are not very active in creating new boroughs, towns (NJ), or cities. An example of this would be Upper Darby township in Delaware County, PA. Even in that case, people in Upper Darby are more likely to claim they are from a CDP inside of the township such as Drexel Hill. People generally go by whatever their post office is. Locals will generally have an idea of some of the township boundaries but will rarely use them for reference. Townships are not suburbs. Townships were created before most cities and boroughs in Pennsylvania. An excellent example of this process is the creation of Philadelphia as it is today. Philadelphia started as a small cities along the Delaware River, as it grew, it started adding surrounding areas. The farm land around the city, but still in Philadelphia county became townships, as population grew in certain spots in these townships, new villages would form, these villages would then become boroughs. Philadelphia also had another form of municipality called Districts at the time, which is no longer relevant. In 1854 Philadelphia City decided to join with the county, and incorporate every township, borough, and district within the county borders. Townships in adjacent counties had become the locations for the newer suburbs, as well as older boroughs in the area that were created distinctly from Philadelphia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Consolidation,_1854) What is now Lancaster city was originally not an incorporated place, but instead a village within a township. Lancaster became a borough from the surrounding Lancaster Township within Lancaster County in 1749, 20 years after the creation of Lancaster County from Chester County. In 1818 Lancaster borough was transformed into Lancaster City, and in 1924 it became a modern class-3 city. While the growth of Lancaster as a place contributed to the popularity of surrounding areas, and the surrounding boroughs (such as Lititz, Ephrata, East Petersburg) now act as almost suburbs to the city of Lancaster, they are not truly suburbs, and people from these boroughs would probably be offended by being labeled as such. (http://www.co.lancaster.pa.us/lancastercity/cwp/browse.asp?a=3&bc=0&c=42722 ) Suburbs can form in townships and boroughs, but they are not suburbs themselves. New Jersey has an interesting history with the creation of boroughs that makes them seem a little bit more suburban: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boroughitis There are townships in other states that are managed differently, but in PA and NJ, they are just county subdivisions, and are not points to put on a map. -- Jim McAndrew ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: > On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Brad Neuhauser > wrote: > > From the place page: > > "In most Western countries, the status of a location (whether it is a > > city/town/etc.), is decided by the government, and is not a function of > > size. ***But most OSM communities of those countries have made a > convention > > to use the population to decide which place tag to use, to ensure a more > > common way of tagging across the globe, and not to end up with cities of > > 1000 residents for example.***" > > I looked for and couldn't find anything stating that this was the US > convention. > > > ...which is why some states are stuffed full of place labels and others are extremely sparse. (if you haven't, see http://www.41latitude.com/post/1349685626/openstreetmap-critique-2) The US community seems to need *some* convention. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Brad Neuhauser wrote: > From the place page: > "In most Western countries, the status of a location (whether it is a > city/town/etc.), is decided by the government, and is not a function of > size. ***But most OSM communities of those countries have made a convention > to use the population to decide which place tag to use, to ensure a more > common way of tagging across the globe, and not to end up with cities of > 1000 residents for example.***" I looked for and couldn't find anything stating that this was the US convention. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Peter Budny wrote: > "Andrew S. J. Sawyer" writes: > > > My thoughts are mixed in below. > > > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:17, Peter Budny wrote: > > > > Antony Pegg writes: > > > > > tagging admin area / populated centers / labels in USA seems to > > > come down to two main tags: > > > > > > admin_level and place > > > > Before you over-simplify, let me point out a couple things: > > > > 1. Not all of the US is incorporated. In the Northeast, every tiny > part > > of land is incorporated into a town or township or borough. But in > the > > Southeast (and I presume elsewhere as well), there's lots of > > unincorporated land, even in the vicinity of large cities. Look at > > Atlanta, which still has lots of unincorporated area. > > > > That's a big variation, and the map needs to be equally competent at > > handling both regions. > > > > Slight correction, not all land in the Northeast is incorporated. In New > > Hampshire there are a handful of communities which are not > > incorporated. > > I was exaggerating to illustrate the differences, but point taken. > > > > 2. Defining how "important" a city is (and thus, how big its label on > > the map should be) is a tricky thing to do. Population is certainly > a > > large factor, but how do you define this? The City of Atlanta is the > > #33 most populous city in the US, with 540,000 people, but the > Atlanta > > metropolitan area is #9 with 5,475,000 people and is the largest > metro > > area in 800 miles. > > > > There's also a recognition factor... the whole world knows where New > > York is and would expect it to be fairly prominent on a map. Capitol > > cities are considered to be "important" even when they're not very > > prominent or populous. Etc. > > > > It seems to me that admin_level handles the first point, except that > 4 > > levels to cover all of the US doesn't give much granularity. Maybe > we > > need to think about using the in-between levels to show more detail? > > > > place= seems to be handling the second point, but not very well. > Should > > label sizes really be determined purely by population? By > "importance"? > > What criteria should there be? I don't think the current scheme of > > city/town/whatever is very good, because it's another instance of > > hacking a British scheme onto a country with a very different history > > and organization. > > > > I agree that there isn't a one-size-fits-all approach that will work > > with displaying/tagging named communities on the map. I think that a > > combination of the size of the given area, the "admin_level" of the > > given area (country, state, county, etc), population and > > recognizability (capital cities, etc). The latter being the most > > difficult to quantify in a manner in which many people would agree on > > (less capital cities). > > I forgot to mention control cities ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_city). > These are cities that are designated for use on highway signs to > indicate which direction you're heading. These should definitely appear > on the map, even if they're relatively small cities (e.g. Valdosta, > Georgia). > > > However, I agree that a ratio of area, "admin_level" and population > > could take care of most cases. > > This gets me wondering if maybe there's some way to do it more > automatically. For instance, it should be easy to find data sources > for population, area, and lists of "global cities" > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city) and control cities. Maybe > there should be a process just before the renderer that takes in that > information and decides how to label cities automatically. That keeps > the OSM database down to the basics. > -- > Peter Budny \ > Georgia Tech \ > CS PhD student \ > > > If you haven't seen it, the 41Latitude blog had an earlier post about getting a good density of US city names at different zoom levels--it was in reference to Bing maps, but the same ideas apply: http://www.41latitude.com/post/931787074/improving-bing-maps-3 In his analysis, using the Census' Urban Clusters and Micropolitan Statistical Areas looked useful. Worth a read, if you're still following this thread. :) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] how to tag US townships?
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:02 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: > 2010/10/20 Brad Neuhauser : > > Aren't admin_level and place getting at slightly different things? > > admin_level is to mark official political/legal boundaries. place is to > > mark a...well...place that has a name, and the > > place=city|town|village|hamlet does not necessarily align with the type > of > > government (if any) of the place. From the place page: > > "In most Western countries, the status of a location (whether it is a > > city/town/etc.), is decided by the government, and is not a function of > > size. ***But most OSM communities of those countries have made a > convention > > to use the population to decide which place tag to use, to ensure a more > > common way of tagging across the globe, and not to end up with cities of > > 1000 residents for example.***" Just like the term "township" that Ant > > linked to, the same word can have different meanings in different > contexts. > > Brad > > > personally I think that the wiki is not very good at this point. The > criteria to decide between town and village and between village and > hamlet is IMHO a functional and often historic and traditional one. Is > there a market place? Is there a church? Is there a townhall? What was > the status in the past? Are there city-walls? Are there other town > specific functions like a university, a hospital? etc. This might not > be valid in all regions, but for Europe it is definitely the case. The > general numbers (1000 /1 / 10) proposed in the wiki are IMHO > definitely too big on the lower end. For Germany we concluded hamlet < > 200 and village < 2000 (which might be better values for Europe in > general), but this doesn't mean there can't be villages with 5000 > inhabitants as well. Basically the size of the population is only a > rough guideline but cannot substitute further analysis. > > While you might argue that we (OSM) are not interested in history in > the first place it is IMHO unneglectible that the historic relevance > had huge impact on the organization of the territory. E.g. the street > grid (as well as railways) is no something constructed in 20 years > from zero (at least in Europe or Asia) but is a structure that was > evolving for hundreds if not thousands of years. > > In the US the history of a place might be shorter, but you might still > be able to apply functional criteria IMHO. > > cheers, > Martin > Functional (subjective) tagging versus tagging to a set standard (objective) is one underlying reason why US highway tagging is so inconsistent--some in the US community want a consistent schema that works in all situations, others want to allow some fuzziness based on the local situation. Regarding the wiki page, Martin, it's not just "not very good" on the point you make--the point is totally missing. If the things you mentioned are usually factored into the tagging decision, then that should be added to the page. Thanks, Brad > ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
