Re: [Talk-us] Railroads and Railroads (Historic)

[stevea]

Hi Nathan:

Good to see your thoughtful questions here on talk-us.  I have seen 
your edits and I believe you have a depth of knowledge about tagging 
railroads already.


I believe in tagging attributes that we know to be true about things 
as we edit them, or before we edit them.  Tagging is free-form, but 
free-form can include being thoughtful, especially as it incorporates 
deep personal knowledge.  Smarter tagging includes reaching out to 
others who might or do have deep knowledge.  In other words, while 
one smart person making a proposal is good, two or more putting their 
heads together (especially with complementary or 
multiplicative/non-overlapping experience) is even better.  And 
builds consensus and community.


No doubt you have seen that historic=ruins is a tag used to attribute 
a specific semantic:  something either like a castle, fort or wall or 
might have been a castle, fort or wall, or goes in that direction. 
"Historic" in this sense goes back hundreds of years, or certainly 
thousands.  Railroads, especially the earliest ones, might make it to 
a sesquicentennial and so encroach this boundary, but early railroads 
are an interesting blend of technological industrial achievement in 
the context of human historic ruins.  Food for thought.  I think 
historic=railroad and ruins=railroad can both work, in the right 
contexts.  Help to sharpen these up!


I don't know how the ruins=railroad tag might already be established; 
tagwatch isn't my forte, anybody?


Rail-banking is a real legal and "along a spectrum" activity that OSM 
should accommodate.  Perhaps a full description of this spectrum in 
an OSM wiki page with various proposal tags might emerge with you? 
If you have a reasonable perspective on how tagging might begin, 
evolve, grow and be (become) useful, I think OSM as a project invites 
you to bring it forward as best you might advance the subject.


So, soliciting how railways are used, banked, contribute to 
"accidents" (as "John F. Eldredge"  writes) is 
knowledge that you might have (maybe you do), others might have, and 
others certainly do not.  The right thing to do is to have OSM best 
capture both what you know (in the real world) and "about" railways. 
You might write up a wiki page that proposes certain tags in certain 
circumstances, this is one way OSM grows.  Do your best to posit a 
smart set of tags, an intelligent way to use them using the concept 
of a life cycle of railroads, and "best express" this as a tagging 
scheme.


Then both use it, document, and improve it.  I'm not just talking to 
you (Nathan) here, and I'm not just talking about railroads.  I'm 
talking to everybody in OSM about everything:  using things (tags) 
smartly and documenting and gaining consensus and making it smarter 
as we go (while getting intelligent feedback in a loop while growing 
better and smarter ad infinitum)... simply IS our OSM and how it 
works.  On a good day.


SteveA
California


On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 4:26 PM, John F. Eldredge 
<j...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:


On 11/10/2013 03:30 PM, nathan proudfoot wrote:


Hello got some questions about Railroads,
I have a passion for the preservation of railroads and the maps 
surrounding them.  I both update current map data with a line per 
each track.  Track is in most cases two rails attached by a sleeper 
or tie. I have over 10,000 edits over on GMM and under 4,000 with 
OSM.


I am mostly coming to ask about historic railroads and how to map them.
In my area we have lots of rail trails, these trails mostly have 
been mapped by

bicycle=yes
foot=yes 
highway=cycleway

horse=yes
name=John Wayne Pioneer Trail
note=railway=abandoned indicates a rail-trail
old_railway_operator=Milwaukee

railway=abandoned
Ect..

Is this the way that we should be mapping these as there are 
historic attributes.

For instance we could add.
historic=ruins
ruins=railroad

or we could remove railway=abandoned
but in this case the railroad is rail banked and could be brought 
out of abandoned status. 

We have other routes in the state that are not rail banked and are 
historic and are not seen as abandoned.  


 Best Regards,
Nathan Proudfoot

email: n.pf...@gmail.com


We probably need a value such as railway=inactive for routes that 
are not in use, but still have the rails in place.  The only problem 
is that, if someone erroneously tags an active but little-used route 
as inactive, this could lead to an accident if someone went hiking 
or rail-biking on the route.

--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


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Re: [Talk-us] Railroads and Railroads (Historic)

[Phil! Gold]

* nathan proudfoot  [2013-11-10 13:30 -0800]:
> I am mostly coming to ask about historic railroads and how to map them.
> In my area we have lots of rail trails, these trails mostly have been
> mapped by
> bicycle=yes
> foot=yes
> highway=cycleway
> horse=yes
> name=John Wayne Pioneer Trail
> note=railway=abandoned indicates a rail-trail
> old_railway_operator=Milwaukee
> railway=abandoned
> Ect..

I'm not sure the note= is necessary, but that matches the tagging I have
seen and used for repurposed abandoned railroads.  I've also either seen
or added (I forget which) railway=abandoned to roads that were built on
abandoned railroads.  (Note that I don't feel that former trolley systems
should be tagged in this way; the current road isn't a remnant of the
former trolley system, as the road usually predates the trolley.)

> historic=ruins
> ruins=railroad

I'm not sure this would add anything not already implied by
railway=abandoned.

> but in this case the railroad is rail banked and could be brought out of
> abandoned status.

I think that railway=abandoned is appropriate for rail-banked rights of
way.  For one thing, it's pretty unlikely that many--if any at all--of the
rail-banked corridors will be revived in the future.  For another thing,
they meet the sense of "trains used to run here, but the rails have been
taken up and only the surrounding environment indicates that there were
trains here at one point".

> We have other routes in the state that are not rail banked and are historic
> and are not seen as abandoned.

I'm not sure what you mean by "not seen as abandoned".  Here's the
decision tree I use:

* Are there rails left?
  + If there are not, is there any trace that a railroad once ran through
there?  (Traces can be subtle, like the curve of a building or the
presence of what was once a platform.)
- If there is no trace left (e.g. the entire area has been regraded
  and new development has taken place in ways that bear no resemblance
  to the old right of way), I usually just won't map anything but if I
  do, it'll be  railway=dismantled.
- If there are some traces remaining, I tag it railway=abandoned.
  + If there are rails, are they still used by trains?
- If no trains use the rails anymore (e.g. the rails are disconnected
  from the mainline or I know from other sources that they're never
  used), I tag them railway=disused.  I do this even for remaining
  rails in long-abandoned rights of way; other people might use
  railway=abandoned for those.
- If the rails are still in use, are they used for "normal" rail
  traffic (transportation of goods or people from one point to
  another) or are they only used for entertainment or education
  (i.e. their main purpose is *not* transporting goods or people from
  one point to another)?
  * If their main use is entertainment or education, I tag them
railway=preserved.
  * If their main use is what we think of as normal rail traffic, I
tag them railway=rail.

This ignores railway=subway, railway=light_rail, and railway=tram, which
have, I think, rather more obvious tagging delineations.

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Re: [Talk-us] Railroads and Railroads (Historic)

[Natfoot]

John,
As listed by James we have, railway=disused
 I would not encourage hiking or rail-biking any of these routes as they
are in question by the tag of disused and most of these are still going to
be private property.  Once abandoned it is no longer a railroad per-say.

Best Regards,
Nathan Proudfoot
email: n.pf...@gmail.com


On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 4:26 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

>  On 11/10/2013 03:30 PM, nathan proudfoot wrote:
>
> Hello got some questions about Railroads,
> I have a passion for the preservation of railroads and the maps
> surrounding them.  I both update current map data with a line per each
> track.  Track is in most cases two rails attached by a sleeper or tie. I
> have over 10,000 edits over on GMM and under 4,000 with OSM.
>
>  I am mostly coming to ask about historic railroads and how to map them.
> In my area we have lots of rail trails, these trails mostly have been
> mapped by
> bicycle=yes
> foot=yes
> highway=cycleway
> horse=yes
> name=John Wayne Pioneer Trail
> note=railway=abandoned indicates a rail-trail
> old_railway_operator=Milwaukee
>  railway=abandoned
> Ect..
>
>  Is this the way that we should be mapping these as there are historic
> attributes.
> For instance we could add.
> historic=ruins
> ruins=railroad
>
>  or we could remove railway=abandoned
> but in this case the railroad is rail banked and could be brought out of
> abandoned status.
>
>  We have other routes in the state that are not rail banked and are
> historic and are not seen as abandoned.
>
>  Best Regards,
>  Nathan Proudfoot
>  email: n.pf...@gmail.com
>
>  We probably need a value such as railway=inactive for routes that are not
> in use, but still have the rails in place.  The only problem is that, if
> someone erroneously tags an active but little-used route as inactive, this
> could lead to an accident if someone went hiking or rail-biking on the
> route.
>
> --
> John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
> "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
> Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
> Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
>
>
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>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Railroads and Railroads (Historic)

[James Umbanhowar]

On Sun, 2013-11-10 at 18:26 -0600, John F. Eldredge wrote: 

> We probably need a value such as railway=inactive for routes that are
> not in use, but still have the rails in place.  The only problem is
> that, if someone erroneously tags an active but little-used route as
> inactive, this could lead to an accident if someone went hiking or
> rail-biking on the route.

The wiki suggests, and I have seen frequently used, railway=disused 
> -- 
> John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
> "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
> Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
> Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us



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Re: [Talk-us] Railroads and Railroads (Historic)

[John F. Eldredge]

On 11/10/2013 03:30 PM, nathan proudfoot wrote:

Hello got some questions about Railroads,
I have a passion for the preservation of railroads and the maps 
surrounding them.  I both update current map data with a line per each 
track.  Track is in most cases two rails attached by a sleeper or tie. 
I have over 10,000 edits over on GMM and under 4,000 with OSM.


I am mostly coming to ask about historic railroads and how to map them.
In my area we have lots of rail trails, these trails mostly have been 
mapped by

bicycle=yes
foot=yes
highway=cycleway
horse=yes
name=John Wayne Pioneer Trail
note=railway=abandoned indicates a rail-trail
old_railway_operator=Milwaukee
railway=abandoned
Ect..

Is this the way that we should be mapping these as there are historic 
attributes.

For instance we could add.
historic=ruins
ruins=railroad

or we could remove railway=abandoned
but in this case the railroad is rail banked and could be brought out 
of abandoned status.


We have other routes in the state that are not rail banked and are 
historic and are not seen as abandoned.


 Best Regards,
Nathan Proudfoot
email: n.pf...@gmail.com 

We probably need a value such as railway=inactive for routes that are 
not in use, but still have the rails in place.  The only problem is 
that, if someone erroneously tags an active but little-used route as 
inactive, this could lead to an accident if someone went hiking or 
rail-biking on the route.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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Re: [Talk-us] Railroads and Railroads (Historic)

[Saikrishna Arcot]

Good to see you here, Nathan.

Saikrishna Arcot

On Sun 10 Nov 2013 04:30:03 PM EST, nathan proudfoot wrote:
> Hello got some questions about Railroads,
> I have a passion for the preservation of railroads and the maps
> surrounding them.  I both update current map data with a line per each
> track.  Track is in most cases two rails attached by a sleeper or tie.
> I have over 10,000 edits over on GMM and under 4,000 with OSM.
>
> I am mostly coming to ask about historic railroads and how to map them.
> In my area we have lots of rail trails, these trails mostly have been
> mapped by
> bicycle=yes
> foot=yes
> highway=cycleway
> horse=yes
> name=John Wayne Pioneer Trail
> note=railway=abandoned indicates a rail-trail
> old_railway_operator=Milwaukee
> railway=abandoned
> Ect..
>
> Is this the way that we should be mapping these as there are historic
> attributes.
> For instance we could add.
> historic=ruins
> ruins=railroad
>
> or we could remove railway=abandoned
> but in this case the railroad is rail banked and could be brought out
> of abandoned status.
>
> We have other routes in the state that are not rail banked and are
> historic and are not seen as abandoned.
>
>  Best Regards,
> Nathan Proudfoot
> email: n.pf...@gmail.com 
>
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

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[Talk-us] Railroads and Railroads (Historic)

[nathan proudfoot]

Hello got some questions about Railroads,
I have a passion for the preservation of railroads and the maps surrounding
them.  I both update current map data with a line per each track.  Track is
in most cases two rails attached by a sleeper or tie. I have over 10,000
edits over on GMM and under 4,000 with OSM.

I am mostly coming to ask about historic railroads and how to map them.
In my area we have lots of rail trails, these trails mostly have been
mapped by
bicycle=yes
foot=yes
highway=cycleway
horse=yes
name=John Wayne Pioneer Trail
note=railway=abandoned indicates a rail-trail
old_railway_operator=Milwaukee
railway=abandoned
Ect..

Is this the way that we should be mapping these as there are historic
attributes.
For instance we could add.
historic=ruins
ruins=railroad

or we could remove railway=abandoned
but in this case the railroad is rail banked and could be brought out of
abandoned status.

We have other routes in the state that are not rail banked and are historic
and are not seen as abandoned.

 Best Regards,
Nathan Proudfoot
email: n.pf...@gmail.com
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