Topband: E51M
Topband, I spoke with the E51M operator on 12M SSB tonight, Webb, and he said the team will be on 160M tonight for their sunset at 0444Z. Plan accordingly. Thanks, Jim N4DU ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Home Depot LED bulb interference.
Jim, K9YC is absolutely right as usual. Another thing to do is to send interference reports from LED bulbs to the FCC with copies to the ARRL, and include the NAB (National Association of Broadcaster) who will be sure to produce some public service announcements for the many member stations across the country. Radio stations don't like to lose listeners, especially in competitive markets, and the NAB moves to protect them. Can you imagine is someone called up Rush or any other major talk show where listeners are in the millions and said..."sorry Rush but I can't pick you up anymore in Wichita because my neighbor next door installed a bunch of these new LED lights in order to save the planet. What can I do?" Also if they are stamped and certified to meet part 15 and cause interference to either broadcasting or communication they can be recalled as a defective product. If there is not any remediation effort by the manufacturer, distributor, and vendor, the units can be banned from import into the US. Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 4/6/2012 1:56 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > On 4/5/2012 9:45 AM, Jim F. wrote: >> I will continue to use one upstairs well away from my operating >> table turned off while operating because I like the bulb and the >> price. > That's a very bad move -- by buying an RF-noisy product, we cause RFI to > ourselves and our neighbors, and we cause more RF-noisy products to be > sold. > > Take it back and demand a refund. Tell them why -- but don't say ham > radio, say that it interferes with your AM and/or FM radios. If you > hear it on 160M, chances are it will also be be killing an AM or FM > table radio near the lamp. > > 73, Jim Brown K9YC > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Home Depot LED bulb interference.
It is quite possible that the products--while claimed to meet Part 15--actually do not, either on some lots or all of them. The real question is whether anyone checks after the original determination. Garry, NI6T On 4/5/2012 6:07 PM, Jim F. wrote: > Hi George, > > I first noticed the problem as a hiss on my favorite FM radio station. > > > Tod, K0TO had a very good thought, that it may be the dimmable feature. > > To answer your question George, : Yes... Marked Clearly on the box. > > >> I am wondering the if the LED >> bulbs bought from Home Depot meet FCC Part 15 specs. Were >> they marked so? >> George, AA7JV > > jim / W1FMR > > > --- On Thu, 4/5/12, GeorgeWallner wrote: > > > From: GeorgeWallner > Subject: Re: Topband: Home Depot LED bulb interference. > To: "TOPBAND" > Date: Thursday, April 5, 2012, 7:10 PM > > > On Thu, 5 Apr 2012 16:01:12 -0400 >"Mike Greenway" wrote: >> I wondered how long it would take before they started >> selling some RFI >> generating lighting. Soon we can have a complete >> neighborhood of RFI > I have tested compact fluorescent bulbs a couple of years > ago and found that they were noisy. I have not tried to > quantify the level of noise emitted, but it was about S5 > on my K3 at a distance of about 4 feet using a one foot > wire for antenna. I have stayed with incandescent, but my > neighbor has installed over 50 of them on his house. The > noise coming from that direction (NW) is significantly > stronger than what I get from any other direction. Since > he has installed the CF (and many LED) bulbs, I have not > made one JA QSO! Fortunately, my DHDL, which looks towards > EU (NE) completely blocks the noise and I am still able to > work Europe. > > On the other hand, I have LED lights installed on my dock, > which is only about 20 feet to the East of the RX antenna, > but these LED lights are driven by well filtered drivers > in metal boxes. No noise from these lights can be > detected. > > It seems to me that we have a very serious threat from > noisy "switched" light sources (and other digital noise > generators, like Variable Frequency Drives) that have not > been properly filtered. I am wondering the if the LED > bulbs bought from Home Depot meet FCC Part 15 specs. Were > they marked so? > > George, AA7JV > > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Fwd: Re: Home Depot LED bulb interference.
On Fri, 6 Apr 2012 17:24:25 -0600 DAVID CUTHBERT wrote: > My calculations assume that the LED lamp conducted >emissions are at the FCC > limit at a single frequency in the 160 meter band. > What made me sceptical was the original posting mentioning that the bulb interfered with an FM broadcast. 73, George ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Home Depot LED bulb interference.
I did some research and Maxim makes ICs for offline LED lamps such as the Home Depot lamps. The switching frequency is 50 to 330 kHz and the incoporate frequency dithering to reduce EMI. The standard they adhere to appears to be EN 55015, Limits and methods of measurement of radio disturbance characteristics of electrical lighting and similar equipment. I found a plot of the limit line and it is in dBuA. In the 160 meter band it is 28 dBuA. From what I gather a standard 50uH/50 ohm LISN is used for the measurement. The standard applies from 9 kHz to 30 MHz. Dave WX7G On Apr 6, 2012 5:02 PM, "Garry Shapiro" wrote: > George, > > I suspect your question at the end was tongue-in-cheek. We know from > long experience with other notorious consumer noise sources---e.g. > plasma TV's, cheap dimmers, touch lamps, fish tank heaters, > thermostats--that the FCC has been neither active nor timely in > exercising its enforcement prerogatives. Some of this is probably due to > the disparity between congressional mandate--i.e. "do this"--and > funding, but we have had little indication of the government's interest > in pursuing Part 15 violations, especially against imports of dubious > quality. > > I fear we are facing a tsunami of RFI, speeding toward us as a perfect > storm of "modern" lighting. I have in the past laid in a supply of > relatively quiet dimmers and replaced many in the neighborhood. But CF > and LED bulbs will be ubiquitous and it is likely to be impossible to > deal with this problem---unless we can generate pressure on the FCC to > enforce Part 15. > > Garry, NI6T > > On 4/5/2012 4:10 PM, GeorgeWallner wrote: > > On Thu, 5 Apr 2012 16:01:12 -0400 > >"Mike Greenway" wrote: > >> I wondered how long it would take before they started > >> selling some RFI > >> generating lighting. Soon we can have a complete > >> neighborhood of RFI > > I have tested compact fluorescent bulbs a couple of years > > ago and found that they were noisy. I have not tried to > > quantify the level of noise emitted, but it was about S5 > > on my K3 at a distance of about 4 feet using a one foot > > wire for antenna. I have stayed with incandescent, but my > > neighbor has installed over 50 of them on his house. The > > noise coming from that direction (NW) is significantly > > stronger than what I get from any other direction. Since > > he has installed the CF (and many LED) bulbs, I have not > > made one JA QSO! Fortunately, my DHDL, which looks towards > > EU (NE) completely blocks the noise and I am still able to > > work Europe. > > > > On the other hand, I have LED lights installed on my dock, > > which is only about 20 feet to the East of the RX antenna, > > but these LED lights are driven by well filtered drivers > > in metal boxes. No noise from these lights can be > > detected. > > > > It seems to me that we have a very serious threat from > > noisy "switched" light sources (and other digital noise > > generators, like Variable Frequency Drives) that have not > > been properly filtered. I am wondering the if the LED > > bulbs bought from Home Depot meet FCC Part 15 specs. Were > > they marked so? > > > > George, AA7JV > > > > ___ > > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > > > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Fwd: Re: Home Depot LED bulb interference.
My calculations assume that the LED lamp conducted emissions are at the FCC limit at a single frequency in the 160 meter band. This is not real world. I'll buy a lamp and characterize the conducted emissions. Dave WX7G On Apr 6, 2012 4:44 PM, "DAVID CUTHBERT" wrote: > -- Forwarded message -- > From: "DAVID CUTHBERT" > Date: Apr 6, 2012 4:42 PM > Subject: Re: Topband: Home Depot LED bulb interference. > To: "GeorgeWallner" > > LED lamps no doubt comply with FCC conducted emissions. The noise is almost > entirely differential mode. Think of a signal on an open wire t-line; it > does not radiate (much). > > But, the asymmetry in the AC power system causes differential to > common-mode conversion. Common-mode current on an open wire feedline > radiates (a lot). > > The primary asymmetry I see is the neutral wire to earth ground. I ran a > NEC sim of a simplified house AC power with feed wires to a power pole. The > signal induced into a 160 meter dipole next door is S-8 from a single LED > lamp at the FCC limit of 2 mV differential into 100 ohms. > > Disconnecting the AC earth ground wire drops the signal by 40 dB. Ferrites > clamped onto the earth ground wire could help. > > This is crude and preliminary but is interesting as I'm an EMC design > engineer as well as a ham. > > Dave WX7G > On Apr 6, 2012 4:22 PM, "GeorgeWallner" wrote: > > > On Fri, 6 Apr 2012 11:57:15 -0700 (PDT) > > "Jim F." wrote: > > ...Since this bulb complies with > > > part 15 of FCC rules > > > > It is marked to comply, but it may not. (Part 15 > > compliance is self-certified. It would be interesting to > > test it against Part 15 requirements. > > > > I believe that one of our potential defences against the > > worst offenders is to bring the attention of retailers to > > the pontial risks of selling non FCC comliant products. > > The more cautious they get the better off we will be. > > Returning it to the retailer is a good start in that > > direction! > > > > George > > ___ > > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > > > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Home Depot LED bulb interference.
George, I suspect your question at the end was tongue-in-cheek. We know from long experience with other notorious consumer noise sources---e.g. plasma TV's, cheap dimmers, touch lamps, fish tank heaters, thermostats--that the FCC has been neither active nor timely in exercising its enforcement prerogatives. Some of this is probably due to the disparity between congressional mandate--i.e. "do this"--and funding, but we have had little indication of the government's interest in pursuing Part 15 violations, especially against imports of dubious quality. I fear we are facing a tsunami of RFI, speeding toward us as a perfect storm of "modern" lighting. I have in the past laid in a supply of relatively quiet dimmers and replaced many in the neighborhood. But CF and LED bulbs will be ubiquitous and it is likely to be impossible to deal with this problem---unless we can generate pressure on the FCC to enforce Part 15. Garry, NI6T On 4/5/2012 4:10 PM, GeorgeWallner wrote: > On Thu, 5 Apr 2012 16:01:12 -0400 >"Mike Greenway" wrote: >> I wondered how long it would take before they started >> selling some RFI >> generating lighting. Soon we can have a complete >> neighborhood of RFI > I have tested compact fluorescent bulbs a couple of years > ago and found that they were noisy. I have not tried to > quantify the level of noise emitted, but it was about S5 > on my K3 at a distance of about 4 feet using a one foot > wire for antenna. I have stayed with incandescent, but my > neighbor has installed over 50 of them on his house. The > noise coming from that direction (NW) is significantly > stronger than what I get from any other direction. Since > he has installed the CF (and many LED) bulbs, I have not > made one JA QSO! Fortunately, my DHDL, which looks towards > EU (NE) completely blocks the noise and I am still able to > work Europe. > > On the other hand, I have LED lights installed on my dock, > which is only about 20 feet to the East of the RX antenna, > but these LED lights are driven by well filtered drivers > in metal boxes. No noise from these lights can be > detected. > > It seems to me that we have a very serious threat from > noisy "switched" light sources (and other digital noise > generators, like Variable Frequency Drives) that have not > been properly filtered. I am wondering the if the LED > bulbs bought from Home Depot meet FCC Part 15 specs. Were > they marked so? > > George, AA7JV > > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Topband: Fwd: Re: Home Depot LED bulb interference.
-- Forwarded message -- From: "DAVID CUTHBERT" Date: Apr 6, 2012 4:42 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Home Depot LED bulb interference. To: "GeorgeWallner" LED lamps no doubt comply with FCC conducted emissions. The noise is almost entirely differential mode. Think of a signal on an open wire t-line; it does not radiate (much). But, the asymmetry in the AC power system causes differential to common-mode conversion. Common-mode current on an open wire feedline radiates (a lot). The primary asymmetry I see is the neutral wire to earth ground. I ran a NEC sim of a simplified house AC power with feed wires to a power pole. The signal induced into a 160 meter dipole next door is S-8 from a single LED lamp at the FCC limit of 2 mV differential into 100 ohms. Disconnecting the AC earth ground wire drops the signal by 40 dB. Ferrites clamped onto the earth ground wire could help. This is crude and preliminary but is interesting as I'm an EMC design engineer as well as a ham. Dave WX7G On Apr 6, 2012 4:22 PM, "GeorgeWallner" wrote: > On Fri, 6 Apr 2012 11:57:15 -0700 (PDT) > "Jim F." wrote: > ...Since this bulb complies with > > part 15 of FCC rules > > It is marked to comply, but it may not. (Part 15 > compliance is self-certified. It would be interesting to > test it against Part 15 requirements. > > I believe that one of our potential defences against the > worst offenders is to bring the attention of retailers to > the pontial risks of selling non FCC comliant products. > The more cautious they get the better off we will be. > Returning it to the retailer is a good start in that > direction! > > George > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK > ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Home Depot LED bulb interference.
On Fri, 6 Apr 2012 11:57:15 -0700 (PDT) "Jim F." wrote: ...Since this bulb complies with > part 15 of FCC rules It is marked to comply, but it may not. (Part 15 compliance is self-certified. It would be interesting to test it against Part 15 requirements. I believe that one of our potential defences against the worst offenders is to bring the attention of retailers to the pontial risks of selling non FCC comliant products. The more cautious they get the better off we will be. Returning it to the retailer is a good start in that direction! George ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Topband: Home Depot LED bulb interference.
I have two Sylvania 40 watt LED's in the shack and can attribute NO noise coming from them. Craig Craig Clark K1QX Radioware PO Box 209 107 Fitzgerald Rd Rindge NH 03461 (603) 899-6957 ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Topband: remove from email list
Hello, Would you please remove my husband K8LJQ from your email list for Topband activities. His health has not been good and can no longer operate a station. The email to remove is k8...@earthlink.net Thank you , Rebecca LeBow XYL-K8LJQ ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Home Depot LED bulb interference.
Excellent advice Jim, And another thought...Since this bulb complies with part 15 of FCC rules our only hope may be with the ARRL. My QRP club is visiting ARRL on the 21st. of this month and the topic will be brought up. Top Band is a great forum / list ! 73, jim --- On Fri, 4/6/12, Jim Brown wrote: From: Jim Brown Subject: Re: Topband: Home Depot LED bulb interference. To: topband@contesting.com, "Jim F." Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 1:56 PM On 4/5/2012 9:45 AM, Jim F. wrote: > I will continue to use one upstairs well away from my operating > table turned off while operating because I like the bulb and the > price. That's a very bad move -- by buying an RF-noisy product, we cause RFI to ourselves and our neighbors, and we cause more RF-noisy products to be sold. Take it back and demand a refund. Tell them why -- but don't say ham radio, say that it interferes with your AM and/or FM radios. If you hear it on 160M, chances are it will also be be killing an AM or FM table radio near the lamp. 73, Jim Brown K9YC ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Home Depot LED bulb interference.
On 4/5/2012 9:45 AM, Jim F. wrote: > I will continue to use one upstairs well away from my operating > table turned off while operating because I like the bulb and the > price. That's a very bad move -- by buying an RF-noisy product, we cause RFI to ourselves and our neighbors, and we cause more RF-noisy products to be sold. Take it back and demand a refund. Tell them why -- but don't say ham radio, say that it interferes with your AM and/or FM radios. If you hear it on 160M, chances are it will also be be killing an AM or FM table radio near the lamp. 73, Jim Brown K9YC ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Home Depot LED bulb interference.
On 04/05/2012 12:45 PM, Jim F. wrote: > OK Sam, > > The RF noisy LED bulbs were purchased at Home Depot > in a special display near the door. > > Ecosmart™ LED bright white A19 #864 680 for $9.99 ea., > 40 watt equivalent, dimmable bulbs using 9 watts of energy. I have not (yet?) noticed any RF issues with the NON-dimmable Ecosmart CFL bulbs. Thanks for the warning on the LED ones... -- All rights reversed. ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: Home Depot LED bulb interference.
LED lighting has the potential to become the main MF/HF noise source for us. FCC *radiated noise* limit testing can produce much lower measured levels than some consumer installations. The driver for consumer installations is *conducted noise*. For LED lighting this should be almost all differential-mode and that is not a huge problem until there is differential-mode to common-mode conversion in AC wiring asymmetries. If the 1 mV FCC conducted EMI limit (1.6 to 30 MHz) is reached with a common-mode a signal, a signal of 20 dB over S-9 can be induced into a 1.8 MHz dipole 50 feet away. Imagine dozens of these LED lamps nearby and in your own house. Dave WX7G ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
Re: Topband: E51M 160 and 6M
Well, I didn't hear them on 160 this A.M. out here in s/w Utah but I did hear and work 'em QRP on 80 meters this morning sosomething good to "report" from the black hole of low band communications, s/w Utah. 72, Jim R. K9JWV > Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 21:32:13 -0700 > From: wa9...@yahoo.com > To: topband@contesting.com > Subject: Topband: E51M 160 and 6M > > > > > I just received this message. Hope this helps. > > Jim, > > I just spoke to the team leader. He says that in the past few days conditions > have fallen off. 80 and 30 in particular have been bothered with heavy > static. The Amps are being used. The 6 meter beacon is running 24/ 7 on > 50.104 CW and it can be heard in the radio shack if any one breaks in. They > have been staying on 160 until the band is covered with static. > > 73, Leon, (K2EWB) > > > Stay on course, fight a good fight, and keep the faith. Jim K9TF/WA9YSD > ___ > UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK ___ UR RST IS ... ... ..9 QSB QSB - hw? BK
