Re: Topband: GAP VERTICAL QUESTION
Your question is about the Gap antennae and I have no experience with them. After reading some of the replies you got back I thought I'd mention my antennae system which is both OK & some what of a joke. I have a long coax leading to a good location for radials and I have a 5 position remote coax box which leads to a 130' inv-l, an 80M (mostly) vertical, a 40 & 30 vert and a beater of a butternut I use only for 20M. All the outer braid from the coax coming from the the coax box are grounded to the same radial plate. The 160 inv-L can be used on 160, 15, 12 and 10M with excellent results. The 80M works wonderful on 17M. The 40 also does 15 OK but I hear and get out better with the 160M antenna on 15M. nothing beats the 30M for 30 and the butternut is the only thing that loads up nicely for 20M. All my antennae and radials are 8 wire CAT cable I got off fleabay for around $100 for about a mile of wire. The Ameritron coax switch I've had for many years but it's probably $150. The coax is something you're going to get anyway. But the beauty is I don't need a tuner as the worst SWR is 2:1 and the K3 has an internal tuner for the barefoot times with a SS rig and the amplifier doesn't seem to mind a 2:1 SWR so the amp is no problem. With this el cheapo antenna system I was able to confirm ZL9HR on 17, 30, 40, 80 and 160 (small brag; one of the 185 total 160M QSOs they made!). All that to say, If you can get a few radials down, and some wire in the air (especially the 160 inv-L, you might could save some money over a commercial antenna and do surprisingly well. It won't beat the big dogs but it'll do just fine. Gary KA1J > With the prospect of downsizing and moving into senior housing in the > future I am starting to look at vertical antennas that will allow me > to continue this wonderful hobby. I have heard "some" good things > about the GAP series of antennas but the company says they do not need > radials on most of them and that worries me. Over the years I have > become very skeptical about claims and the other BS put out by most > companies ( maybe it is a function of age I dunno) so I wonder if > these antennas really work. The two antennas that I am interested > are the Voyager DX for 160/80/40 and the Eagle DX for the rest of > the bands. > > > > So my question is does anyone have actual experience with these > antennas (especially the voyager) as compared to other antennas for a > specific frequency. Now guys .. I know you cant really compare a 6 > element beam to a vertical of this kind but I am talking about a > comparison that is realistic.. like how does it hear, tune, match & > get out compared to something like another vertical or a dipole up > some reasonable distance. > > > > I sure hope this has not opend another can of worms.. some how I seem > to do that .. private emails are ok..especially it the topic gets out > of hand and we get a large volume of comments (Tree please dont shoot > me before Christmas my wife will miss me.) > > > > Jim WA3MEJ > > > Long Live Seal Team VI > > http://www.qsl.net/wa3mej/index.htm > ___ > Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: 2011 Stew Perry Plaques
I'de like to make an addition to this post of mine, and Thank N0TT - Charles for the Youngest op with 100+ QSO's award , that Plaque arrived today, & another very deep thank you for the organizers & all whom took part. I'm really going to try and be on this year, its just been very hectic with the non-radio stuff, and minor Murphy visits. 73 to all and great TBDX tu -Steve Raas N2JDQ On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 7:41 AM, Steven Raas wrote: > I just rcvd one of these beauties in the mail, they look great. A big > thank you to Lew W7EW, Bob AA6VB ( Donor ), & every one that was > patient in working my Lil Pistol signal last running of this fine > event. With luck, I'll be on again this year too, but Murphy may get > the upper hand. > > 73's Everyone > Steve Raas > N2JDQ > ___ > Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Topband: SPDC Plaque
Thanks to K9JWV and WC7S for sponsoring the plaque which arrived today at my home. It is for the Top USA QRP Score west of the Mississippi. Thanks to the Boring ARC and to Lew for the super job they do. de Milt, N5IA - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2634/5949 - Release Date: 12/10/12 ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: GAP VERTICAL QUESTION
I had a GAP Voyager when I lived in Albuquerque. My subjective opinion was that it worked well on 80 and 40, was a dud on 20, and was very inefficient on 160, where I was lucky to work east of the Mississippi. 73, Jim N7US -Original Message- The GAP Voyager is not much better than a dummy load on 160m. On 80m and 40m it received fairly well compared to my other 80 and 40 antennas. Doug Original Message- With the prospect of downsizing and moving into senior housing in the future I am starting to look at vertical antennas that will allow me to continue this wonderful hobby. I have heard "some" good things about the GAP series of antennas but the company says they do not need radials on most of them and that worries me. Over the years I have become very skeptical about claims and the other BS put out by most companies ( maybe it is a function of age I dunno) so I wonder if these antennas really work. The two antennas that I am interested are the Voyager DX for 160/80/40 and the Eagle DX for the rest of the bands. So my question is does anyone have actual experience with these antennas (especially the voyager) as compared to other antennas for a specific frequency. Now guys .. I know you cant really compare a 6 element beam to a vertical of this kind but I am talking about a comparison that is realistic.. like how does it hear, tune, match & get out compared to something like another vertical or a dipole up some reasonable distance. I sure hope this has not opend another can of worms.. some how I seem to do that .. private emails are ok..especially it the topic gets out of hand and we get a large volume of comments (Tree please dont shoot me before Christmas my wife will miss me.) Jim WA3MEJ ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Topband: Fw: GAP VERTICAL QUESTION
The GAP Voyager is not much better than a dummy load on 160m. On 80m and 40m it received fairly well compared to my other 80 and 40 antennas. Doug Original Message- With the prospect of downsizing and moving into senior housing in the future I am starting to look at vertical antennas that will allow me to continue A friend of mine had a GAPvertical which covered 160. It did not get out at all. Not as good as a dummy load! Price W0RI ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: GAP VERTICAL QUESTION
I don't know about the Gaps, but a 43' vertical fed through a 4:1 unun works very well for me on 40-10 meters on a remote hilltop. On 80 and 160 I simply top load it with a long wire. When not in use the wire can either be wrapped around the antenna, or in the summers, removed. Yes there is minor signal loss (some would argue more than minor) due to swr in the feed line, but the unun transformer greatly reduces that, and in return you get some gain on most bands vs a 1/4 wl vertical. I don't use the unun on 80 and 160, but one could with non-resonant top loading. For low visibility at my home QTH in an antenna restricted neighborhood I use a 43' wire up a tree instead of a freestanding vertical… I also have a 23 foot wire which I use above 20 meters, and a longer inverted L for 160. Those three invisible antennas are imperfect but have managed to work almost every DX-pedition in the last 2 years. I believe that they can outperform any commercial vertical. KQ0C On Dec 11, 2012, at 5:47 PM, "Doug Renwick" wrote: > The GAP Voyager is not much better than a dummy load on 160m. On 80m and > 40m it received fairly well compared to my other 80 and 40 antennas. > > Doug > > Original Message- > > With the prospect of downsizing and moving into senior housing in the future > I am starting to look at vertical antennas that will allow me to continue > this wonderful hobby. I have heard "some" good things about the GAP series > of antennas but the company says they do not need radials on most of them > and that worries me. Over the years I have become very skeptical about > claims and the other BS put out by most companies ( maybe it is a function > of age I dunno) so I wonder if these antennas really work. The two antennas > that I am interested are the Voyager DX for 160/80/40 and the Eagle DX for > the rest of the bands. > > > > So my question is does anyone have actual experience with these antennas > (especially the voyager) as compared to other antennas for a specific > frequency. Now guys .. I know you cant really compare a 6 element beam to a > vertical of this kind but I am talking about a comparison that is > realistic.. like how does it hear, tune, match & get out compared to > something like another vertical or a dipole up some reasonable distance. > > > > I sure hope this has not opend another can of worms.. some how I seem to do > that .. private emails are ok..especially it the topic gets out of hand and > we get a large volume of comments (Tree please dont shoot me before > Christmas my wife will miss me.) > > > > Jim WA3MEJ > > > Long Live Seal Team VI > > http://www.qsl.net/wa3mej/index.htm > ___ > Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com > > ___ > Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com > ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: rx array proximity to barbed wire fence
Tom, Having fought (and lost) a battle of harmonics from an environmental unintended mixer at the last QTH, I really can feel trouble with that blasted fence. The good news is that the transmit antenna is about 100' + from the fence, and the other antennas are several hundred feet further back yet. Trying to track down a thing serving as a mixer out in the open where you can get too it is a challenge I'm not fretting too much - IF it becomes trouble. 73/jeff/ac0c www.ac0c.com alpha-charlie-zero-charlie -Original Message- From: Tom W8JI Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 5:39 PM To: Joel Harrison ; Jeff Blaine Cc: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: rx array proximity to barbed wire fence While one might claim some theoretical interaction I have not documented any or identified any performance degradation as a result. I see Big Gun Mike, W5UC, has a lot of experience with RX arrays close to fences has responded as well.> The rusty twisted-joint barbed wire fences by my RX antennas were a problem when I transmitted, but only when I tried to duplex. They were 2000 -3000 feet long and ran right past the TX antennas in a straight line, so I bet they had a whopping signal level. They generated noise like crazy while I transmitted. I think the real problem is all fences and all installations are different. If the fence has rusty joints and reradiates strong BC station mixing products, it will be an issue. If the fence is near power lines and reradiates noise, it can be a problem. If the fence reradiates propagated signals with significant intensity compared to over-the-air signals (pretty unlikely), it could be a problem. It really depends more on the fence and local layout of things than anything else, so the only way to really know is to just try it. 73 Tom ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: GAP VERTICAL QUESTION
The GAP Voyager is not much better than a dummy load on 160m. On 80m and 40m it received fairly well compared to my other 80 and 40 antennas. Doug Original Message- With the prospect of downsizing and moving into senior housing in the future I am starting to look at vertical antennas that will allow me to continue this wonderful hobby. I have heard "some" good things about the GAP series of antennas but the company says they do not need radials on most of them and that worries me. Over the years I have become very skeptical about claims and the other BS put out by most companies ( maybe it is a function of age I dunno) so I wonder if these antennas really work. The two antennas that I am interested are the Voyager DX for 160/80/40 and the Eagle DX for the rest of the bands. So my question is does anyone have actual experience with these antennas (especially the voyager) as compared to other antennas for a specific frequency. Now guys .. I know you cant really compare a 6 element beam to a vertical of this kind but I am talking about a comparison that is realistic.. like how does it hear, tune, match & get out compared to something like another vertical or a dipole up some reasonable distance. I sure hope this has not opend another can of worms.. some how I seem to do that .. private emails are ok..especially it the topic gets out of hand and we get a large volume of comments (Tree please dont shoot me before Christmas my wife will miss me.) Jim WA3MEJ Long Live Seal Team VI http://www.qsl.net/wa3mej/index.htm ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: rx array proximity to barbed wire fence
While one might claim some theoretical interaction I have not documented any or identified any performance degradation as a result. I see Big Gun Mike, W5UC, has a lot of experience with RX arrays close to fences has responded as well.> The rusty twisted-joint barbed wire fences by my RX antennas were a problem when I transmitted, but only when I tried to duplex. They were 2000 -3000 feet long and ran right past the TX antennas in a straight line, so I bet they had a whopping signal level. They generated noise like crazy while I transmitted. I think the real problem is all fences and all installations are different. If the fence has rusty joints and reradiates strong BC station mixing products, it will be an issue. If the fence is near power lines and reradiates noise, it can be a problem. If the fence reradiates propagated signals with significant intensity compared to over-the-air signals (pretty unlikely), it could be a problem. It really depends more on the fence and local layout of things than anything else, so the only way to really know is to just try it. 73 Tom ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: GAP VERTICAL QUESTION
I have a Gap Titan. As the other people indicate it is not as good as a whole variety of other antennas. It is only good for 80 and up. I find that it works fairly well on 40 and 20M. Do I get stomped on in a pile-up - yes I do. Will I eventually make the contact - probably. At times my dipole on 40M does better, at other times it is the Gap Titan. However, I didn't buy this antenna to be the top of the pileup. I bought it to be maintenance free and a low hassle installation. It has been up for 10 years, and it has satisfied the goal of having an antenna in the air with very little maintenance. I make contacts when I want - I just wont be the first one to work the rare DX in a pileup. Scott aka kb0fhp -Original Message- From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of DGB Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 6:27 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: GAP VERTICAL QUESTION K7LXC book review was with the Titan. It was a poor performer against the Challenger, much less my other antennas IMHO of my testing between the two, Junk! de ns9i On 12/11/2012 5:13 PM, Tom W8JI wrote: >> >> So my question is does anyone have actual experience with these >> antennas (especially the voyager) as compared to other antennas for a >> specific frequency. Now guys .. I know you cant really compare a 6 >> element beam to a vertical of this kind but I am talking about a >> comparison that is realistic.. like how does it hear, tune, match & >> get out compared to something like another vertical or a dipole up >> some reasonable distance. >> > > Jim, > > Years ago someone purchased and had me measure a GAP vertical. The Gap > was terrible on 160 and 80 meters. It was OK on most other bands. On > 160 meters, although I have a pretty good mobile antenna, I had about > the same field strength from my mobile antenna. The Gap was down about > 10 dB from a 1/4 wave on 80 meters, as I recall. My mobile antenna is > about 20 dB down from my 1/4 wave 160 meter vertical. > > The ARRL reviewed one Gap vertical in an on-the-air A-B test, and a > small ground mounted trap vertical was equal or better. I'm sure you > can search ARRL reviews and find this review. > > Also, the HF Verticals test by K7LXC and Ward Silver compared many > verticals, and had about the same results on 80 meters as I found and > the ARRL found. > > All of these completely independent tests were A-B tests against other > reference verticals, and all pretty much agreed with each other. > > This doesn't mean you can't work DX with a Gap, because I can work VK, > JA, and Europe on 160 with my mobile antenna. I've worked several > Europeans on 160 SSB while driving down the highway. I can, at times, > even beat others in pileups from the mobile on 80 meters. Obviously if > the Gap is as good as a better mobile antenna, you can probably work a > lot of DX with it. > > 73 Tom > ___ > Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com > ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: GAP VERTICAL QUESTION
K7LXC book review was with the Titan. It was a poor performer against the Challenger, much less my other antennas IMHO of my testing between the two, Junk! de ns9i On 12/11/2012 5:13 PM, Tom W8JI wrote: So my question is does anyone have actual experience with these antennas (especially the voyager) as compared to other antennas for a specific frequency. Now guys .. I know you cant really compare a 6 element beam to a vertical of this kind but I am talking about a comparison that is realistic.. like how does it hear, tune, match & get out compared to something like another vertical or a dipole up some reasonable distance. Jim, Years ago someone purchased and had me measure a GAP vertical. The Gap was terrible on 160 and 80 meters. It was OK on most other bands. On 160 meters, although I have a pretty good mobile antenna, I had about the same field strength from my mobile antenna. The Gap was down about 10 dB from a 1/4 wave on 80 meters, as I recall. My mobile antenna is about 20 dB down from my 1/4 wave 160 meter vertical. The ARRL reviewed one Gap vertical in an on-the-air A-B test, and a small ground mounted trap vertical was equal or better. I'm sure you can search ARRL reviews and find this review. Also, the HF Verticals test by K7LXC and Ward Silver compared many verticals, and had about the same results on 80 meters as I found and the ARRL found. All of these completely independent tests were A-B tests against other reference verticals, and all pretty much agreed with each other. This doesn't mean you can't work DX with a Gap, because I can work VK, JA, and Europe on 160 with my mobile antenna. I've worked several Europeans on 160 SSB while driving down the highway. I can, at times, even beat others in pileups from the mobile on 80 meters. Obviously if the Gap is as good as a better mobile antenna, you can probably work a lot of DX with it. 73 Tom ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: GAP VERTICAL QUESTION
So my question is does anyone have actual experience with these antennas (especially the voyager) as compared to other antennas for a specific frequency. Now guys .. I know you cant really compare a 6 element beam to a vertical of this kind but I am talking about a comparison that is realistic.. like how does it hear, tune, match & get out compared to something like another vertical or a dipole up some reasonable distance. Jim, Years ago someone purchased and had me measure a GAP vertical. The Gap was terrible on 160 and 80 meters. It was OK on most other bands. On 160 meters, although I have a pretty good mobile antenna, I had about the same field strength from my mobile antenna. The Gap was down about 10 dB from a 1/4 wave on 80 meters, as I recall. My mobile antenna is about 20 dB down from my 1/4 wave 160 meter vertical. The ARRL reviewed one Gap vertical in an on-the-air A-B test, and a small ground mounted trap vertical was equal or better. I'm sure you can search ARRL reviews and find this review. Also, the HF Verticals test by K7LXC and Ward Silver compared many verticals, and had about the same results on 80 meters as I found and the ARRL found. All of these completely independent tests were A-B tests against other reference verticals, and all pretty much agreed with each other. This doesn't mean you can't work DX with a Gap, because I can work VK, JA, and Europe on 160 with my mobile antenna. I've worked several Europeans on 160 SSB while driving down the highway. I can, at times, even beat others in pileups from the mobile on 80 meters. Obviously if the Gap is as good as a better mobile antenna, you can probably work a lot of DX with it. 73 Tom ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: rx array proximity to barbed wire fence
Jeff - the southern periphery of my 8 circle vertical array (W8JI broad side/end fire passive version) is 75 feet from a barb wire fence that runs a quarter mile east and west. While one might claim some theoretical interaction I have not documented any or identified any performance degradation as a result. I see Big Gun Mike, W5UC, has a lot of experience with RX arrays close to fences has responded as well. GL with the array. 73 Joel W5ZN On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Jeff Blaine wrote: > I am considering installing one of these hi-z or DXE buffered-type > receiving 4-square arrays for 160/80. The best place on the property is on > the north west corner - in a location about 400’ from the transmit > vertical. It’s got a clear shot NE to EU and is about 600’ from the > nearest house. > > However, that NW property corner location has old barbed wire fences that > runs along the property line in the corner. > > I am curious if anyone has experience with this kind of array near barbed > wire fencing. > > Thanks! > > 73/jeff/ac0c > www.ac0c.com > alpha-charlie-zero-charlie > > ___ > Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com > -- 73 Joel W5ZN www.w5zn.org ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Help With 80M Array
When I received my box, there was a faulty soldered joint in the switch box. It took me some weeks to find out. I was checking only my work (cable, radials, coax length, Coax connectors... and not checking work of others.well 99,9% it IS my fault when something does not work. See if all relays are working as they should. You said, you sent back the RELAY box, not sure if they also checked the SWITCH box.. ? 73 Tom DL2OBO PS: still looking for more FCP users for my FCP-user listing on http://www.dl2obo.de/04b_fcp_info/fcp-info.html -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] Im Auftrag von john battin Gesendet: Dienstag, 11. Dezember 2012 23:02 An: wewill...@gmail.com Cc: topband@contesting.com Betreff: Re: Topband: Help With 80M Array When you switch directions do you see any (even slight) change in the swr or power into the dummy load??? How far do you have to move the frequency before you see power increase in the dummy load?? John K9dx > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 16:13:09 -0500 > From: olin...@bellsouth.net > To: wewill...@gmail.com > CC: topband@contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: Help With 80M Array > > That sounds more like relays are not being gotten voltage out at the > PVS switch unit. 1,2,3,G all have to be separate wires to the controller. > Particularly suspicious like G may be mixed up with one of the 123 > guys, which would keep any operating voltage from the relays. If you > had to do any cable splicing and different wire colors on the two > runs, that would be suspect. > > 73, Guy. > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 2:01 PM, Wayne Willenberg wrote: > > > I recently bought a Comtek 2-element phased vertical array system for 80M. > > Each vertical is ¼ wavelength in length and the 2 verticals are > > spaced ¼ wavelength apart. > > > > > > > > I have installed 60-- ¼ wavelength radials in a uniform and > > symmetrical pattern around the base of the first vertical. Using my > > AIM 4170 analyzer, I adjusted the length of the first vertical until > > the minimum SWR was at the frequency I wanted (3.71 MHz). At that > > frequency, the SWR was 1.4 and the series resistance at the > > feedpoint measured 35.7 Ohms with a series reactance of 6 Ohms. (If > > you are curious, the resonant frequency was 3.68 > > MHz.) > > > > > > Next, I assembled the second vertical, making each section and the > > overall length the same as the first. I then erected the second > > vertical in a SW direction of the first vertical at a distance from > > the first vertical of ¼ wavelength. I used a transit to make sure > > the base of the second vertical was at the same elevation as the first vertical. > > > > > > I then installed 60-- ¼ wavelength radials in the same manner as the > > first vertical. Where the radials of the 2 antennas overlapped, I > > cut them and soldered them to a 3 piece of copper strip that runs > > at a 90 degree angle to a reference line connecting the 2 verticals. > > > > > > To make sure the two verticals behaved the same way electrically, I > > connected my AIM analyzer directly to the feed point of the antenna > > being tested with 50 feet of coax. (The 50 feet of coax was > > calibrated out of the measurements.) In taking these measurements, I > > lowered one antenna to a horizontal position and measured the one > > vertical that was upright. I then reversed the process. Next I > > superimposed the scans of both verticals over a frequency range of > > 3.0 to 4.5 MHz. The traces for the SWR, Theta, and the return loss > > only varied slightly from each other. For example, the SWR of the first vertical was 1.4 and it was 1.45 for the second vertical. > > > > > > Next, I located the relay box, that contains the hybrid coupler, > > between the 2 verticals and connected the relay box to each antenna > > with RG-213 that is electrically ¼ wavelength long. I then ran > > RG-213 from the transmitter port on the relay box back to my shack. > > I also ran another length or RG-213 from the50 Ohm Load port back > > to a 50 Ohm dummy load in my shack. (All of the RG213 I used was > > new.) I also ran the control line from the 3-position control box in > > my shack to the rely box. Finally, I checked the continuity of all > > of the wiring and also made sure the relays closed or opened in response to the signal from the control box. > > > > > > After all of this effort and expense, I am very disappointed in the > > performance of the array. I cant measure the RF output in the NE or > > SW endfire positions to determine if I am getting any gain, but when > > I listen to stations in Europe and switch between the NE and SW > > positions, I cant see or hear any change in the signal strength. > > So, I question whether there is any front to back rejection. > > > > > > I returned the relay box to the vendor. They checked it and said it > > was working correctly. > > > > > > I have used my AIM analy
Re: Topband: GAP VERTICAL QUESTION
All I can say is it depends on how gud ur gnd is. I have a gap challenger dx that was worthless over sandy soil hr in the midwest. Now I am in in more loamy land and it works great. On 40 is performs as well as my 1/2 sq. Depends on ur land! Never outperforms all my other antennas(10 other wires plus the beam on a tower)! Blow the doors off Titan I tried out! Just be happy to have an antenna! ;-) Anything is better then nothing! de ns9i On 12/11/2012 4:50 PM, wa3...@comcast.net wrote: With the prospect of downsizing and moving into senior housing in the future I am starting to look at vertical antennas that will allow me to continue this wonderful hobby. I have heard "some" good things about the GAP series of antennas but the company says they do not need radials on most of them and that worries me. Over the years I have become very skeptical about claims and the other BS put out by most companies ( maybe it is a function of age I dunno) so I wonder if these antennas really work. The two antennas that I am interested are the Voyager DX for 160/80/40 and the Eagle DX for the rest of the bands. So my question is does anyone have actual experience with these antennas (especially the voyager) as compared to other antennas for a specific frequency. Now guys .. I know you cant really compare a 6 element beam to a vertical of this kind but I am talking about a comparison that is realistic.. like how does it hear, tune, match & get out compared to something like another vertical or a dipole up some reasonable distance. I sure hope this has not opend another can of worms.. some how I seem to do that .. private emails are ok..especially it the topic gets out of hand and we get a large volume of comments (Tree please dont shoot me before Christmas my wife will miss me.) Jim WA3MEJ Long Live Seal Team VI http://www.qsl.net/wa3mej/index.htm ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Topband: GAP VERTICAL QUESTION
With the prospect of downsizing and moving into senior housing in the future I am starting to look at vertical antennas that will allow me to continue this wonderful hobby. I have heard "some" good things about the GAP series of antennas but the company says they do not need radials on most of them and that worries me. Over the years I have become very skeptical about claims and the other BS put out by most companies ( maybe it is a function of age I dunno) so I wonder if these antennas really work. The two antennas that I am interested are the Voyager DX for 160/80/40 and the Eagle DX for the rest of the bands. So my question is does anyone have actual experience with these antennas (especially the voyager) as compared to other antennas for a specific frequency. Now guys .. I know you cant really compare a 6 element beam to a vertical of this kind but I am talking about a comparison that is realistic.. like how does it hear, tune, match & get out compared to something like another vertical or a dipole up some reasonable distance. I sure hope this has not opend another can of worms.. some how I seem to do that .. private emails are ok..especially it the topic gets out of hand and we get a large volume of comments (Tree please dont shoot me before Christmas my wife will miss me.) Jim WA3MEJ Long Live Seal Team VI http://www.qsl.net/wa3mej/index.htm ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Help With 80M Array
When you switch directions do you see any (even slight) change in the swr or power into the dummy load??? How far do you have to move the frequency before you see power increase in the dummy load?? John K9dx > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 16:13:09 -0500 > From: olin...@bellsouth.net > To: wewill...@gmail.com > CC: topband@contesting.com > Subject: Re: Topband: Help With 80M Array > > That sounds more like relays are not being gotten voltage out at the PVS > switch unit. 1,2,3,G all have to be separate wires to the controller. > Particularly suspicious like G may be mixed up with one of the 123 guys, > which would keep any operating voltage from the relays. If you had to do > any cable splicing and different wire colors on the two runs, that would be > suspect. > > 73, Guy. > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 2:01 PM, Wayne Willenberg wrote: > > > I recently bought a Comtek 2-element phased vertical array system for 80M. > > Each vertical is ¼ wavelength in length and the 2 verticals are spaced ¼ > > wavelength apart. > > > > > > > > I have installed 60-- ¼ wavelength radials in a uniform and symmetrical > > pattern around the base of the first vertical. Using my AIM 4170 analyzer, > > I adjusted the length of the first vertical until the minimum SWR was at > > the frequency I wanted (3.71 MHz). At that frequency, the SWR was 1.4 and > > the series resistance at the feedpoint measured 35.7 Ohms with a series > > reactance of 6 Ohms. (If you are curious, the resonant frequency was 3.68 > > MHz.) > > > > > > Next, I assembled the second vertical, making each section and the overall > > length the same as the first. I then erected the second vertical in a SW > > direction of the first vertical at a distance from the first vertical of ¼ > > wavelength. I used a transit to make sure the base of the second vertical > > was at the same elevation as the first vertical. > > > > > > I then installed 60-- ¼ wavelength radials in the same manner as the first > > vertical. Where the radials of the 2 antennas overlapped, I cut them and > > soldered them to a 3” piece of copper strip that runs at a 90 degree angle > > to a reference line connecting the 2 verticals. > > > > > > To make sure the two verticals behaved the same way electrically, I > > connected my AIM analyzer directly to the feed point of the antenna being > > tested with 50 feet of coax. (The 50 feet of coax was calibrated out of > > the measurements.) In taking these measurements, I lowered one antenna to > > a horizontal position and measured the one vertical that was upright. I > > then reversed the process. Next I superimposed the scans of both verticals > > over a frequency range of 3.0 to 4.5 MHz. The traces for the SWR, Theta, > > and the return loss only varied slightly from each other. For example, the > > SWR of the first vertical was 1.4 and it was 1.45 for the second vertical. > > > > > > Next, I located the relay box, that contains the hybrid coupler, between > > the 2 verticals and connected the relay box to each antenna with RG-213 > > that is electrically ¼ wavelength long. I then ran RG-213 from the > > transmitter port on the relay box back to my shack. I also ran another > > length or RG-213 from the”50 Ohm Load” port back to a 50 Ohm dummy load in > > my shack. (All of the RG213 I used was new.) I also ran the control line > > from the 3-position control box in my shack to the rely box. Finally, I > > checked the continuity of all of the wiring and also made sure the relays > > closed or opened in response to the signal from the control box. > > > > > > After all of this effort and expense, I am very disappointed in the > > performance of the array. I can’t measure the RF output in the NE or SW > > endfire positions to determine if I am getting any gain, but when I listen > > to stations in Europe and switch between the NE and SW positions, I can’t > > see or hear any change in the signal strength. So, I question whether > > there is any front to back rejection. > > > > > > I returned the relay box to the vendor. They checked it and said it was > > working correctly. > > > > > > I have used my AIM analyzer to scan the feedline at my shack when the array > > is in an endfire position. From 3.5 to 4.0 MHz, the SWR slopes downward > > from 2.5 to 1.5. There is no resonant point, and Theta starts at -30 > > degrees and curves upward to -5 degrees. > > > > > > I increased the frequency scan range and found a distinct null in the SWR > > at 3.4 MHz. At that frequency, Theta is 0 and the return loss is at the > > bottom of a very deep “V” trace and measured -36dB. > > > > Based on these measurements, it seems to me the mutual coupling between the > > 2 verticals has moved the minimum SWR and the resonant point of the array, > > in an end fire configuration, to a point well below the 80M band. > > *QUESTION > > 1*: Am I misreading these results? > > > > > > After reading and rereading the chapter in Low Band Dxing on Arrays, the > > advice is to use
Re: Topband: Help With 80M Array
That sounds more like relays are not being gotten voltage out at the PVS switch unit. 1,2,3,G all have to be separate wires to the controller. Particularly suspicious like G may be mixed up with one of the 123 guys, which would keep any operating voltage from the relays. If you had to do any cable splicing and different wire colors on the two runs, that would be suspect. 73, Guy. On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 2:01 PM, Wayne Willenberg wrote: > I recently bought a Comtek 2-element phased vertical array system for 80M. > Each vertical is ¼ wavelength in length and the 2 verticals are spaced ¼ > wavelength apart. > > > > I have installed 60-- ¼ wavelength radials in a uniform and symmetrical > pattern around the base of the first vertical. Using my AIM 4170 analyzer, > I adjusted the length of the first vertical until the minimum SWR was at > the frequency I wanted (3.71 MHz). At that frequency, the SWR was 1.4 and > the series resistance at the feedpoint measured 35.7 Ohms with a series > reactance of 6 Ohms. (If you are curious, the resonant frequency was 3.68 > MHz.) > > > Next, I assembled the second vertical, making each section and the overall > length the same as the first. I then erected the second vertical in a SW > direction of the first vertical at a distance from the first vertical of ¼ > wavelength. I used a transit to make sure the base of the second vertical > was at the same elevation as the first vertical. > > > I then installed 60-- ¼ wavelength radials in the same manner as the first > vertical. Where the radials of the 2 antennas overlapped, I cut them and > soldered them to a 3” piece of copper strip that runs at a 90 degree angle > to a reference line connecting the 2 verticals. > > > To make sure the two verticals behaved the same way electrically, I > connected my AIM analyzer directly to the feed point of the antenna being > tested with 50 feet of coax. (The 50 feet of coax was calibrated out of > the measurements.) In taking these measurements, I lowered one antenna to > a horizontal position and measured the one vertical that was upright. I > then reversed the process. Next I superimposed the scans of both verticals > over a frequency range of 3.0 to 4.5 MHz. The traces for the SWR, Theta, > and the return loss only varied slightly from each other. For example, the > SWR of the first vertical was 1.4 and it was 1.45 for the second vertical. > > > Next, I located the relay box, that contains the hybrid coupler, between > the 2 verticals and connected the relay box to each antenna with RG-213 > that is electrically ¼ wavelength long. I then ran RG-213 from the > transmitter port on the relay box back to my shack. I also ran another > length or RG-213 from the”50 Ohm Load” port back to a 50 Ohm dummy load in > my shack. (All of the RG213 I used was new.) I also ran the control line > from the 3-position control box in my shack to the rely box. Finally, I > checked the continuity of all of the wiring and also made sure the relays > closed or opened in response to the signal from the control box. > > > After all of this effort and expense, I am very disappointed in the > performance of the array. I can’t measure the RF output in the NE or SW > endfire positions to determine if I am getting any gain, but when I listen > to stations in Europe and switch between the NE and SW positions, I can’t > see or hear any change in the signal strength. So, I question whether > there is any front to back rejection. > > > I returned the relay box to the vendor. They checked it and said it was > working correctly. > > > I have used my AIM analyzer to scan the feedline at my shack when the array > is in an endfire position. From 3.5 to 4.0 MHz, the SWR slopes downward > from 2.5 to 1.5. There is no resonant point, and Theta starts at -30 > degrees and curves upward to -5 degrees. > > > I increased the frequency scan range and found a distinct null in the SWR > at 3.4 MHz. At that frequency, Theta is 0 and the return loss is at the > bottom of a very deep “V” trace and measured -36dB. > > Based on these measurements, it seems to me the mutual coupling between the > 2 verticals has moved the minimum SWR and the resonant point of the array, > in an end fire configuration, to a point well below the 80M band. > *QUESTION > 1*: Am I misreading these results? > > > After reading and rereading the chapter in Low Band Dxing on Arrays, the > advice is to use 75 Ohm, instead of 50 Ohm, coax for the ¼ wavelength > feeders. So, *QUESTION 2*: should I try RG11 with PL-259 connectors? (I > use a 1.5KW amp on 80M and the maximum voltage rating for RG11 is 300V. Am > I safe using RG11 or should I try LM-400-75 that has a 2,000V rating?) > > * > * > > *QUESTION 3*: Also, is it OK to put 50 Ohm connectors (PL-259’s) on 75 Ohm > coax? > > > *QUESTION 4:* What other tests or measurements should I try to improve the > performance of this array? (I do have a dual trace scope, if that would be > useful
Re: Topband: rx array proximity to barbed wire fence
On 12/11/2012 1:36 PM, Jeff Blaine wrote: I am considering installing one of these hi-z or DXE buffered-type receiving 4-square arrays for 160/80. The best place on the property is on the north west corner - in a location about 400’ from the transmit vertical. It’s got a clear shot NE to EU and is about 600’ from the nearest house. However, that NW property corner location has old barbed wire fences that runs along the property line in the corner. I am curious if anyone has experience with this kind of array near barbed wire fencing. Thanks! Hi Jeff: I currently run what amounts to a two element HI-Z RX array. My back yard has chain link fencing around 3 sides. I elected to put the antennas on top of the fence, and it has worked well. This may be a consideration for you. Each antenna is mounted on a piece of treated 2X2about a foot above the level of the fence; with the pre-amplifier housed in a plastic Folgers coffee can just below the base of the antenna. The array allowed me to work three new ones during, the CQWW contest, including D4C, and that completed DXCC on 160 for me. The original installation used metal coffee cans, and subsequently I changed that because I had problems keeping the lids on the metal cans. See http://www.suddenlink.net/pages/w5uc/160%20vertical.html 73, Mike, W5UC ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: rx array proximity to barbed wire fence
Jeff, I live on what was once a pasture with barbed wire fencing about 90' diagonally from one corner of the 4-square. I didn't worry about the fence when I first installed the array and it seemed to work OK. When I was having what turned out to be a hardware problem, I cut the barbed wire for about an 100' length just to make sure it wasn't contributing to my problem. As best I could tell, there was no effect on receive performance either way. 73, Joe K2XX On 12/11/2012 2:36 PM, Jeff Blaine wrote: I am considering installing one of these hi-z or DXE buffered-type receiving 4-square arrays for 160/80. The best place on the property is on the north west corner - in a location about 400’ from the transmit vertical. It’s got a clear shot NE to EU and is about 600’ from the nearest house. However, that NW property corner location has old barbed wire fences that runs along the property line in the corner. I am curious if anyone has experience with this kind of array near barbed wire fencing. Thanks! 73/jeff/ac0c www.ac0c.com alpha-charlie-zero-charlie ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Topband: rx array proximity to barbed wire fence
I am considering installing one of these hi-z or DXE buffered-type receiving 4-square arrays for 160/80. The best place on the property is on the north west corner - in a location about 400’ from the transmit vertical. It’s got a clear shot NE to EU and is about 600’ from the nearest house. However, that NW property corner location has old barbed wire fences that runs along the property line in the corner. I am curious if anyone has experience with this kind of array near barbed wire fencing. Thanks! 73/jeff/ac0c www.ac0c.com alpha-charlie-zero-charlie ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Fw: Re: : antenna question ...this is notgoingtodieqiuite yet....................
Fortunately it is true since I stipulated qualified people as in plural. That is not true. Accuracy is not determined by a vote or opinion poll. I can give dozens of examples, but one that comes to mind is use of a balun on the input of an unbalanced network tuner. That was popularly accepted when initiated, is still argued today as a good idea by respected members of the ARRL staff and others, but is easily proven a bad idea with analysis and/or measurements. Popularity or mass agreement is not an indicator of accuracy. Only measurement and accurate analysis ensures accuracy. 73 Tom ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Fw: Re: : antenna question ...this is not goingtodieqiuite yet....................
And one should never rely on a single source of information unless it has been well vetted. That is something that wont happen on Antennex but there are enough qualified people on Eham and here to seperate truth and fiction. Unfortunately that isn't true. The number of people viewing something one way with unscientific methods (my xxx worked great and made more contacts than any other xxx I had) another never determines what answer is accurate. Often the most repeated and simple answers, or emotional answers, are more often accepted. How something works is never settled by popular vote or argument, or by blind faith. It is settled by known physics and measurement. In this case anyone building an antenna from twin lead and writing an article could (or should) have taken the time to actually measure a folded dipole. had they done that, they would find resonant frequency does not change a measurable amount when the dipole goes from regular dipole mode to folded dipole mode. This clearly means the velocity factor is not a measurable factor in the system and shorts are not needed, because there is no resonance shift when operating folded or parallel modes. The real problem is we have data based on assumptions or feelings without verification. 73 Tom ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Fw: Re: : antenna question ...this is not going todieqiuite yet....................
And one should never rely on a single source of information unless it has been well vetted. That is something that wont happen on Antennex but there are enough qualified people on Eham and here to seperate truth and fiction. Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: "Bill Aycock" To: ; "mike l dormann" Sent: Monday, December 10, 2012 9:50 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Fw: Re: : antenna question ...this is not going todieqiuite yet Mike-- Often, quoting eHam is repeating nonsense. Sorry, but it is so, and this is a good example. Any Ham that relies on published Velocity factor data, without verification, gets errors, and (frequently) blames it on something else. Start over; read some texts or handbooks; Think; read stuff from people like W8JI (and people he disagrees with). Reading eHam is like reading Antennex; There may be something good there, but how can you tell? It's not checked by anyone qualified. Bill--W4BSG -Original Message- From: mike l dormann Sent: Monday, December 10, 2012 2:46 PM To: topband@contesting.com Subject: Topband: Fw: Re: : antenna question ...this is not going to dieqiuite yet if I may quote eHam. Dale Hunt: The velocity of typical cheap TV twinlead is usually in the range of 0.8 to 0.85 (and can vary along a single role.) This is important if you are creating a quarter wave matching stub, but not for the overall length of a folded dipole antenna. Use the standard single- wire dipole formulas and it should work fine. One variation I have seen is to connect a short jumper wire across the twinlead a short distance in from each end of the folded dipole. The idea is that, while the overall antenna length is not corrected for the velocity factor, each half of the antenna is effectively a quarter-wave stub which does need the correction. The shorting bar is put on each side about 85% of the way out from the center. This may improve the SWR somewhat in a 300 ohm system, but if you are using a tuner to match 50 ohms to 300 ohms, then you won't seem any noticable improvement. (The tuner setting will compensate for any slight mismatch due to the velocity factor.) I guess if one was to use a balan of some sort to have the end to the transmitter be 50 ohms, this could of of some importance mike w7dra Woman is 53 But Looks 25 Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50c64a7b534c04a7b6da2st04vuc ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2634/5449 - Release Date: 12/10/12 ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Topband: 2011 Stew Perry Plaques
I just rcvd one of these beauties in the mail, they look great. A big thank you to Lew W7EW, Bob AA6VB ( Donor ), & every one that was patient in working my Lil Pistol signal last running of this fine event. With luck, I'll be on again this year too, but Murphy may get the upper hand. 73's Everyone Steve Raas N2JDQ ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
