Topband: Switch-Mode Noise Source Identified

[Paul Christensen]

Last weekend, I noticed a high level of noise on the HF bands, especially
160m through 40m.  The noise was classic switch-mode.  The switching
frequency is 84 kHz.  

Yesterday, I went on foot with my RFI locate gear and located the source in
under an hour, about a 1/4 mile away.   You can read about it at the top of
my QRZ.com page.  I'll leave it posted through the weekend.

http://www.qrz.com/db/W9AC

Paul, W9AC

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Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: beverage layout

[Bill Hider]

Hi Mike,

 

I appreciate your comments.  

I need to discuss this further with you – After SS CW.

I’ll be in touch next week.

 

TNX,

 

Bill N3RR

 

From: Mike Waters [mailto:mikew...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 5:21 PM
To: Bill Hider
Cc: topband
Subject: Re: Topband: beverage layout

 

Hi Bill,

I see you have a wide vertical spacing 
(http://users.erols.com/n3rr/photos/dual_ew-1.jpg).

I don't doubt that they work well, as you say.

I did a fair amount of analysis about that design in the past. I forget the 
finer details, and I'm not in the mood for any more math and modeling today, 
but I want to throw out an idea.

 

That design might work slightly better if the spacing wasn't as large, or if 
the wires were side-by-side. The way it is, the ground underneath it unbalances 
it somewhat. The Z of the upper wire to ground vs. the Z of the lower wire to 
ground is unequal.

Exactly how much difference in F/B in the reverse direction that makes, I don't 
remember. But in some situations, changing the spacing or turning the wires 90 
degrees might make the difference pulling a weak one out of the noise and QRM.

 

Not picking on you. Just food for thought. :-)

73, Mike

www.w0btu.com

 

On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Bill Hider  wrote:

My Website has detail ... on my two 275' Beverages (E & W)  mounted on a single 
set of
posts. ... I've been using all these since 2000.  ... Scroll down to the System 
Design links & click on "Beverages".

Here:
http://users.erols.com/n3rr/

 

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7227 / Virus Database: 4457/10956 - Release Date: 11/06/15

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Re: Topband: beverage layout

[Jim Garland]

Steve,
I have two bidirectional beverages (NE/SW and NW/SE), each 720 ft long, 
configured in a V-shape.  I'm using DXE switching and xfmrs, with the vertex of 
the V a 4x4 post. I use additional 4x4 posts spaced every 60 ft along the 
length,  seven ft out of the ground, with ceramic insulators with large holes 
on the side of each post. The ceramic insulators screw into the sides of the 
posts and cost about $1 each from a farm supply company. The WD1a wire is a 
twisted pair, with both conductors tied in parallel for each wire of the pari/ 
(i.e., four wires for each beverage) The WD1 slides thourh the hole in the 
insulators and is anchored only at the end points. A pulley at the far end of 
each beverage equalizes the tension in the parallel wires. My original version 
of the beverages used ladder line from DXE and it was constant maintenance. 
After two years I gave up and switched to the WD1a, which is fabulous. It's 
very strong, which is the primary requirement. I've had no trouble since I 
started using it. The electrical resistance of the WD1a is insignificant. 

My only complaint about my beverages is that the F/B ratio is often only about 
10-15 db, a fact I attribute to the lousy sandy soil at my QTH. I have a couple 
of ground rods at the ends of each beverage, but I don't think that's adequate. 
 The side-to-front ratio when I switch beverages is very good, by contrast. 

73,
Jim W8ZR 

> -Original Message-
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Steve 
> Baughn
> Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 8:52 AM
> To: topband@contesting.com
> Subject: Topband: beverage layout
> 
> I am planning to put up two bi-directional beverages at my QTH. Being as this 
> is the first
> time I have had the real estate and time I have a couple questions regarding 
> same:
> 
> 1) Since these will be running at 90 degree angles to one another, can the 
> feed points for
> both be relatively close to each other i.e. a few feet or so or do they need 
> to be farther apart?
> 
> 2) I have read some contradictory material as far as type of wire to use for 
> these. A few
> sources say WD-1 field phone wire but then another says there is fairly high 
> loss in this.
> Same for 450 ohm ladderline who some say has its drawbacks during rainy/snowy 
> periods.
> It appears that electric fence wire may be the best option given its 
> durability (these antennas
> will probably be running through the woods).
> 
> 3) If I do go with the fence wire as I understand it the spacing should be 
> fairly close
> between the two wires such as an inch or so and mounted about 10’ off the 
> ground. I am
> considering a metsl T post with pvc slid over it then holes through each 
> vertical pvc piece to
> run the wires.
> 
> I am located just outside Mount Vernon Ohio if anyone in the vicinity is an 
> authority on this
> any help would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks much!
> 
> 73,
> Steve, WD8NPL
> _
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

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Re: Topband: beverage layout

[Steve Baughn]

Tnx to all for the replies. This gives me a better understanding and starting 
point for the project!

73,
Steve, WD8NPL

From: Mike Waters 
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 1:44 PM
To: sawye...@earthlink.net 
Cc: topband ; Steve Baughn 
Subject: Re: Topband: beverage layout

Hello Ed,


Thanks for the heads-up. I didn't know about the K1TTT website.


This looks interesting. Comments from a number of hams on Beverage antenna 
materials:
www.k1ttt.net/technote/materials.html#fencewire


I haven't found any other info on Beverages on that site yet, but I'll keep 
looking. :-)


73, Mike

www.w0btu.com


On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Ed Sawyer  wrote:

  ... K1TTT has great resources on his website for such designs, as do others.

_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Topband: beverage layout

[Steve Baughn]

I am planning to put up two bi-directional beverages at my QTH. Being as this 
is the first time I have had the real estate and time I have a couple questions 
regarding same:

1) Since these will be running at 90 degree angles to one another, can the feed 
points for both be relatively close to each other i.e. a few feet or so or do 
they need to be farther apart?

2) I have read some contradictory material as far as type of wire to use for 
these. A few sources say WD-1 field phone wire but then another says there is 
fairly high loss in this. Same for 450 ohm ladderline who some say has its 
drawbacks during rainy/snowy periods. It appears that electric fence wire may 
be the best option given its durability (these antennas will probably be 
running through the woods).

3) If I do go with the fence wire as I understand it the spacing should be 
fairly close between the two wires such as an inch or so and mounted about 10’ 
off the ground. I am considering a metsl T post with pvc slid over it then 
holes through each vertical pvc piece to run the wires. 

I am located just outside Mount Vernon Ohio if anyone in the vicinity is an 
authority on this any help would be appreciated. 

Thanks much!

73,
Steve, WD8NPL
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: beverage layout

[Ed Sawyer]

Are you actually talking about "switched 2 direction beverages" or 2
bi-directional beverages.

 

A bi-directional beverage receives in 2 directions at the same time on a
single wire.  It is un-terminated.  I have 2 of these in my beverage farm:
one E/W and one N/S.

 

A switched single direction 2 wire beverage can be switched for pattern and
can be implemented with ladder line or closely spaced individual wires.
K1TTT has great resources on his website for such designs, as do others.

 

Personally, I do not find the gain differences that big between my beverage
choices (although they are measurable).  The GAME CHANGER is F/B ratio.  

 

I have a phased 2 wire array to EU with 2 terminated wires of approx. 950 ft
in length spaced roughly 50 ft apart and running parallel.  The US stations
on 40 and 80M drop by 5 S units vs the bi-direction beverage running E/W.
The EU station goes up by roughly an S unit.  For contesting - it's a game
changer.

 

On 160M I see less F/B impact but similar 1 s Unit gain in the EU direction.

 

Ed  N1UR

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Re: Topband: beverage layout

[Steve Baughn]

Ed,

I am referring to two switched 2 direction beverages, each with its own 
reflection transformer.


73,
Steve, WD8NPL

-Original Message- 
From: Ed Sawyer

Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 12:18 PM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: beverage layout

Are you actually talking about "switched 2 direction beverages" or 2
bi-directional beverages.



A bi-directional beverage receives in 2 directions at the same time on a
single wire.  It is un-terminated.  I have 2 of these in my beverage farm:
one E/W and one N/S.



A switched single direction 2 wire beverage can be switched for pattern and
can be implemented with ladder line or closely spaced individual wires.
K1TTT has great resources on his website for such designs, as do others.



Personally, I do not find the gain differences that big between my beverage
choices (although they are measurable).  The GAME CHANGER is F/B ratio.



I have a phased 2 wire array to EU with 2 terminated wires of approx. 950 ft
in length spaced roughly 50 ft apart and running parallel.  The US stations
on 40 and 80M drop by 5 S units vs the bi-direction beverage running E/W.
The EU station goes up by roughly an S unit.  For contesting - it's a game
changer.



On 160M I see less F/B impact but similar 1 s Unit gain in the EU direction.



Ed  N1UR

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Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband 


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Re: Topband: beverage layout

[Mike Waters]

Hello Steve,

Ed has a point. I used to incorrectly refer to my two-wire,
switchable-direction Beverages as "bi-directional". Removing the far-end
termination resistor from a single-wire Beverage makes them mostly
bi-directional (about a 10 dB F/B).

As for your question # 1, please see
www.w0btu.com/Beverage_antennas.html#Proximity_to_Beverage_antennas
about not sharing the ground between two antennas.

To answer your question # 3, they don't have to be close-spaced. Some of
the best 160 meter stations use 6" (or more) spacing. However, the
transformer impedance ratios have to match the wire size, wire spacing, and
height above ground. Please see
www.w0btu.com/Beverage_antennas.html#How_far_apart

Wide spacing has some advantages, as well as disadvantages.

 - Wide-spaced wires probably shouldn't be run one over the top of the
other. And they could be more susceptible to imbalance from nearby metal
buildings, metal fences, etc.

 - Narrow spacing requires more spacers; I may try a 12" spaced Beverage
here someday so I don't need any spacers, just supports every 100'.

Please see my Beverage antenna information page at
www.w0btu.com/Beverage_antennas.html
as well as the links there to other Beverage antenna websites.

Whatever material you use will delight you. :-)

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 9:51 AM, Steve Baughn  wrote:

> 1) Since these will be running at 90 degree angles to one another, can the
> feed points for both be relatively close to each other i.e. a few feet or
> so or do they need to be farther apart?
> ...
> 3) If I do go with the fence wire as I understand it the spacing should be
> fairly close between the two wires such as an inch or so and mounted about
> 10’ off the ground. I am considering a metsl T post with pvc slid over it
> then holes through each vertical pvc piece to run the wires.
>
>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: beverage layout

[Mike Waters]

Hello Ed,

Thanks for the heads-up. I didn't know about the K1TTT website.

This looks interesting. Comments from a number of hams on Beverage antenna
materials:
www.k1ttt.net/technote/materials.html#fencewire

I haven't found any other info on Beverages on that site yet, but I'll keep
looking. :-)

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Ed Sawyer  wrote:

> ... K1TTT has great resources on his website for such designs, as do
> others.
>
_
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband

Re: Topband: beverage layout

[Mike Waters]

Hi Bill,

I see you have a wide vertical spacing (
http://users.erols.com/n3rr/photos/dual_ew-1.jpg).
I don't doubt that they work well, as you say.

I did a fair amount of analysis about that design in the past. I forget the
finer details, and I'm not in the mood for any more math and modeling
today, but I want to throw out an idea.

That design might work slightly better if the spacing wasn't as large, or
if the wires were side-by-side. The way it is, the ground underneath it
unbalances it somewhat. The Z of the upper wire to ground vs. the Z of the
lower wire to ground is unequal.

Exactly how much difference in F/B in the reverse direction that makes, I
don't remember. But in some situations, changing the spacing or turning the
wires 90 degrees might make the difference pulling a weak one out of the
noise and QRM.

Not picking on you. Just food for thought. :-)

73, Mike
www.w0btu.com

On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Bill Hider  wrote:

> My Website has detail ... on my two 275' Beverages (E & W)  mounted on a
> single set of
> posts. ... I've been using all these since 2000.  ... Scroll down to the
> System Design links & click on "Beverages".
>
> Here:
> http://users.erols.com/n3rr/
>
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