Re: Topband: fixing beverage
On Tue,11/24/2015 5:56 PM, Tom W8JI wrote: Factually, the little bumps or even big bumps on VHF are meaningless for active problems on lower frequencies. They might predict a future issue, but on 160 meters even crushing a cable flat for five feet would be meaningless for receive loss unless the center actually contacted the shield. Factually, that is not good analysis. One can use any measurement tool in multiple ways. If, for example, one is searching for tiny holes the outer diectric that are letting in water, we must look at the higher frequencies to see that level of detail. We're not looking for SWR or loss, we're looking for some sort of mechanical defect that degrades the cable. On Tue,11/24/2015 5:56 PM, Tom W8JI wrote: If I wanted to find the reason for high signal loss on 160, the last thing I would ever do is look at the system on 150 MHz or even 30 MHz. I would first look at the system down around where the problem is, or as close as I could to that frequency. That's because you don't understand FFT analysis. I'm not looking for the loss, I'm looking for the CAUSE of the loss, and I want to get within a few inches of it. You CANNOT do that with a low frequency test signal -- the system does not have sufficient resolution. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: fixing beverage
I've been doing FFT-based measurements since 1982. I suggest that you try a technique before you criticize it. Your analysis is badly mistaken. Jim, Factually, the little bumps or even big bumps on VHF are meaningless for active problems on lower frequencies. They might predict a future issue, but on 160 meters even crushing a cable flat for five feet would be meaningless for receive loss unless the center actually contacted the shield. This is just the way things work, and it is important we get our heads around the way things work. If I wanted to find the reason for high signal loss on 160, the last thing I would ever do is look at the system on 150 MHz or even 30 MHz. I would first look at the system down around where the problem is, or as close as I could to that frequency. I can go out and slice half of the shield off for 10 feet and not tell a difference in receive 160 signal, but it would be terrible on VHF. VHF certainly tells us a future problem or a defect nicely, but it will not directly point reliably to the LF issue unless by chance there is only one bad spot. I use a TDR when applicable, and that is about once every three or four years. I can find and fix any cable system for HF with a cheap common SWR analyzer, and so can anyone else. I can sit in my house and find a bad connection 1000 feet away by sweeping the SWR between 1.8 and 5 MHz, and get within a foot, and not spend $500 on equipment. 73 Tom _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: fixing beverage
On Tue,11/24/2015 3:02 PM, Tom W8JI wrote: Actually, to see the more gross defects, we would look at a lower frequency. I don't want to imagine what my 160 stuff would look like at VHF. Tom, I've been doing FFT-based measurements since 1982. I suggest that you try a technique before you criticize it. Your analysis is badly mistaken. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: fixing beverage
FAR Circuits has a TDR kit for use with a scope. $10.00 73, Roger On 11/24/2015 4:30 PM, Mike Waters wrote: It would be a simple matter to use my old Tektronix 465B scope as a TDR. But I'd love to have a good dual-port VNA. :-) 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Jim Brown wrote: There are multiple ways to do TDR. I like the way that this unit does it -- an inverse FFT of a frequency sweep. http://sdr-kits.net/VNWA3_Description.html _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: fixing beverage
There are multiple ways to do TDR. I like the way that this unit does it -- an inverse FFT of a frequency sweep. http://sdr-kits.net/VNWA3_Description.html To expose small perturbations in the feedline or system, make the sweep at VHF/UHF. To see only the more gross defects, sweep from about 50-150 MHz. To understand this, remember that a linear frequency sweep will spend more time in the high octaves than the low ones, so the greatest contribution to the display will be that higher octave, whatever you have chosen. Actually, to see the more gross defects, we would look at a lower frequency. I don't want to imagine what my 160 stuff would look like at VHF. :) A system can have a 500 ohm transmission impedance bump 1 foot long on 160 meters and it just doesn't matter. The general rule is if a reasonable impedance discontinuity is less than one degree long, it will not upset the system. SO 239's, for example, are about 35 ohms in the female's joining spring part (the males are nearly perfect). The effect of that bump is nearly immeasurable below 100 MHz. We all know a one foot long chunk of wire that might be 400-800 ohms surge impedance barely changes SWR and adds immeasureable loss between the coax and a vertical base on 160. Same reason. Although the wire is a "major" impedance bump, it is electrically not too long. What we cannot tolerate on 160 are resistive series connections and low resistance shorts shunting the system, or cross coupling from sharing common currents. On 160 meters, if we simply measure RF voltage across the input of a line while sweeping low frequency, recording the repeating frequency of voltage minimums, we can find the distance to any cable or connection problem affecting the system by more than a few dB. Little lumps and bumps at VHF might locate a future issue like a chewed shield, but for an existing signal loss they are just a distraction. If a shield develops high resistance 800 feet from my house, the high series resistance will cause a repeating voltage null 800/492 = 1.626 MHz apart. If I swept the line and saw repeating nulls spaced 3 MHz apart, I would know an issue existed 492 / 3=164 electrical feet away. If the cable was .85 vf , the issue would be 164*.85 = 139.4 feet away physically. This would be true for an open or a short. All the software and refinement does for locating major existing issues affecting level is eliminate the use of a calculator. Any SWR measuring device, or even a simple voltage indicator, could do the job. I can find a bump affecting receive levels with a Heathkit VF1 VFO and a 1N34 diode and meter about as well as I can with a TDR on 160.:) _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: fixing beverage
On Tue,11/24/2015 1:30 PM, Mike Waters wrote: But I'd love to have a good dual-port VNA.:-) See the price - about $700 with cal kit and shipping. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: fixing beverage
It would be a simple matter to use my old Tektronix 465B scope as a TDR. But I'd love to have a good dual-port VNA. :-) 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > There are multiple ways to do TDR. I like the way that this unit does it > -- an inverse FFT of a frequency sweep. > > http://sdr-kits.net/VNWA3_Description.html > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: fixing beverage
On Mon,11/23/2015 2:06 PM, Mike Waters wrote: Maybe things have improved lately, but AIM would not be my first choice. There are multiple ways to do TDR. I like the way that this unit does it -- an inverse FFT of a frequency sweep. http://sdr-kits.net/VNWA3_Description.html To expose small perturbations in the feedline or system, make the sweep at VHF/UHF. To see only the more gross defects, sweep from about 50-150 MHz. To understand this, remember that a linear frequency sweep will spend more time in the high octaves than the low ones, so the greatest contribution to the display will be that higher octave, whatever you have chosen. In the example posed by the question about varmint damage, I'd set it for 200 - 1,000 MHz to see small nicks in the braid, 50 - 150 MHz to see the connectors and splices. 73, Jim K9YC _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: fixing beverage
I agree with Mike, check the ground connection at the Beverage feed point. 73 Tom W1TO On 11/23/2015 10:26 AM, Mike Waters wrote: Not necessarily. I've seen a poor ground cause low signal levels. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:21 AM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote: ... I think the coax is not the problem, because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf, right? _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: fixing beverage
Thanks all for the help, will upgrade software and try to use it as TDR 73, Jorge Enviado desde mi iPhone > El 23 nov. 2015, a las 23:00, Bill Hider escribió: > > Jorge, > > I have used my AIM4170 many times as a TDR. Your 3 year old AIM_853.exe > should work, but it is free & easy go upgrade to the latest (October 26, > 2015) software revision, AIM_910B. > > Download AIM_910B here: > > WWW.w5big.com/prog_update.htm > > Bill N3RR > >> On Nov 23, 2015 8:03 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: >> >> Hi Jorge, >> >> The AIM4170 has TDR capabilities. I don't own an AIM470, but >> surely someone on the Topband reflector can help you use it >> as a TDR. >> >> 73 >> Frank >> W3LPL >> >> - Original Message - >> >> From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" >> To: donov...@starpower.net >> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 11:56:32 PM >> Subject: RE: Topband: fixing beverage >> >> Hi Frank >> >> I google and the first option was Campbellsci.es >> >> In 5 minutes the CX representative emailed me and told me that is a very >> very expensive toy for my use :-) >> >> I have the AIM4170, will do this job? I use the software AIM_852.exe I need >> another software or this is OK? >> >> Thanks, >> Jorge >> >> -Mensaje original----- >> De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de >> donov...@starpower.net >> Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 06:51 p.m. >> Para: topband@contesting.com >> CC: dl8yhrfr...@aol.com >> Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage >> >> Hi Frank, >> >> My TDR is nearly fifty years old, but still it works great. >> >> Array Solutions sells more modern multi-functions devices that are perform >> very well as a TDR. Here's an example display from Array Solutions' web >> site: >> >> https://www.arraysolutions.com/images/AIMuhf-TDR-fig1.png >> >> The display for a Beverage looks very similar, you can see every component >> from the shack to the termination resistor. >> >> 73 >> Frank >> W3LPL >> >> - Original Message - >> >> From: dl8yhrfr...@aol.com >> To: donov...@starpower.net >> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 9:20:55 PM >> Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage >> >> where can i get such toy? >> >> >> >> >> -Urspr ngliche Mitteilung- >> Von: donovanf >> An: TopBand List >> Cc: Jorge Diez - CX6VM >> Verschickt: Mo, 23 Nov 2015 9:39 pm >> Betreff: Re: Topband: fixing beverage >> >> >> >> A Time Domain Reflectometer is one of the best tools to verify >> the proper performance and isolate faults of a Beverage and many >> other types of antennas. >> >> In the case of a Beverage, the TDR allows you to see every >> component of the antenna system from the ham shack all the way >> to the termination resistor. If anything fails you can almost >> always walk directly to it with the needed replacement parts and >> tools in hand. >> >> 73 >> Frank >> W3LPL >> >> - Original Message - >> >> From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" < cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com > >> To: "TopBand List" < topband@contesting.com > >> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 8:29:15 PM >> Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage >> >> Thanks all you guys for the help >> >> Will do this tests and see what is wrong >> >> 73, >> Jorge >> CX6VM/CW5W >> >> -Mensaje original- >> De: Tom W8JI [ mailto:w...@w8ji.com ] >> Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 02:35 p.m. >> Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM; 'TopBand List' >> Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage >> >>> >>> I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks ago. >> >> 5-20 dB. Depending on receiver and where it is at on the S meter. >> >> That has to be a poor connection, open, or short between the receiver and >> the >> Beverage transformer end of the Beverage. It cannot be at the termination >> end. >> >>> At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the >>> problem, because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf, >> right? >> >> No. Coax can do this. It happens all the time. Especially at connectors. >> >&
Re: Topband: fixing beverage
Any antenna analyzer with variable frequency can be used as a TDR of sorts. Anything will work. The method is very simple. You simply observe how far apart in frequency the repeating gyrations in impedance are, and use standard 1/2 wave formulas to convert the difference frequency to distance. I can do this with a low power VFO and a diode detector or scope. It does not even have to be a bridge. :) 73 Tom _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: fixing beverage
Jorge, I have used my AIM4170 many times as a TDR. Your 3 year old AIM_853.exe should work, but it is free & easy go upgrade to the latest (October 26, 2015) software revision, AIM_910B. Download AIM_910B here: WWW.w5big.com/prog_update.htm Bill N3RR On Nov 23, 2015 8:03 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: > > Hi Jorge, > > The AIM4170 has TDR capabilities. I don't own an AIM470, but > surely someone on the Topband reflector can help you use it > as a TDR. > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > > - Original Message - > > From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" > To: donov...@starpower.net > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 11:56:32 PM > Subject: RE: Topband: fixing beverage > > Hi Frank > > I google and the first option was Campbellsci.es > > In 5 minutes the CX representative emailed me and told me that is a very very > expensive toy for my use :-) > > I have the AIM4170, will do this job? I use the software AIM_852.exe I need > another software or this is OK? > > Thanks, > Jorge > > -Mensaje original- > De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de > donov...@starpower.net > Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 06:51 p.m. > Para: topband@contesting.com > CC: dl8yhrfr...@aol.com > Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage > > Hi Frank, > > My TDR is nearly fifty years old, but still it works great. > > Array Solutions sells more modern multi-functions devices that are perform > very well as a TDR. Here's an example display from Array Solutions' web site: > > https://www.arraysolutions.com/images/AIMuhf-TDR-fig1.png > > The display for a Beverage looks very similar, you can see every component > from the shack to the termination resistor. > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > > - Original Message - > > From: dl8yhrfr...@aol.com > To: donov...@starpower.net > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 9:20:55 PM > Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage > > where can i get such toy? > > > > > -Urspr ngliche Mitteilung- > Von: donovanf > An: TopBand List > Cc: Jorge Diez - CX6VM > Verschickt: Mo, 23 Nov 2015 9:39 pm > Betreff: Re: Topband: fixing beverage > > > > A Time Domain Reflectometer is one of the best tools to verify > the proper performance and isolate faults of a Beverage and many > other types of antennas. > > In the case of a Beverage, the TDR allows you to see every > component of the antenna system from the ham shack all the way > to the termination resistor. If anything fails you can almost > always walk directly to it with the needed replacement parts and > tools in hand. > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > > - Original Message - > > From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" < cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com > > To: "TopBand List" < topband@contesting.com > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 8:29:15 PM > Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage > > Thanks all you guys for the help > > Will do this tests and see what is wrong > > 73, > Jorge > CX6VM/CW5W > > -Mensaje original- > De: Tom W8JI [ mailto:w...@w8ji.com ] > Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 02:35 p.m. > Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM; 'TopBand List' > Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage > > > > > I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks ago. > > > > 5-20 dB. Depending on receiver and where it is at on the S meter. > > That has to be a poor connection, open, or short between the receiver and the > Beverage transformer end of the Beverage. It cannot be at the termination > end. > > > At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the > > problem, because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf, > right? > > No. Coax can do this. It happens all the time. Especially at connectors. > > > > > So this can be the cause of a problem in the end resistor or maybe in > > the transformer? I use in this beverage a WX0B beverage boxes > > > > It can not be at the end resistor termination. > > The problem is if you disturb something it will often start working. You need > to > carefully check one thing at a time. Many times, if not most times, this is > corrosion or tarnish on the center pin of the coax. Sometimes it is a broken > wire, or a bad part from lightning or water. > > The best way to test it is with an SWR meter and do a frequency sweep from > the > house, before you touch the antenna or any outside connections. The frequency > of > either adjacent major dips in SWR or impedance will allo
Re: Topband: fixing beverage
When you get the problem solved, save the TDR trace for future reference. You can even take a picture of it with a camera. Art NK8X On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:11 PM, James Bennett wrote: > Jorge, > > I also have a 4170 and it does do TDR without any additional software or > hardware. The user manual has several pages on how to use the 4170 as a TDR. > > Jim Bennett / W6JHB > Folsom, CA > > > On Nov 23, 2015, at 5:03 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: > > > > Hi Jorge, > > > > > > The AIM4170 has TDR capabilities. I don't own an AIM470, but > > surely someone on the Topband reflector can help you use it > > as a TDR. > > > > > > 73 > > Frank > > W3LPL > > > > - Original Message - > > > > From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" > > To: donov...@starpower.net > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 11:56:32 PM > > Subject: RE: Topband: fixing beverage > > > > Hi Frank > > > > I google and the first option was Campbellsci.es > > > > In 5 minutes the CX representative emailed me and told me that is a very > very expensive toy for my use :-) > > > > I have the AIM4170, will do this job? I use the software AIM_852.exe I > need another software or this is OK? > > > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > > > > > -Mensaje original----- > > De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de > donov...@starpower.net > > Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 06:51 p.m. > > Para: topband@contesting.com > > CC: dl8yhrfr...@aol.com > > Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage > > > > > > Hi Frank, > > > > > > My TDR is nearly fifty years old, but still it works great. > > > > > > Array Solutions sells more modern multi-functions devices that are > perform very well as a TDR. Here's an example display from Array Solutions' > web site: > > > > > > https://www.arraysolutions.com/images/AIMuhf-TDR-fig1.png > > > > > > The display for a Beverage looks very similar, you can see every > component from the shack to the termination resistor. > > > > > > 73 > > Frank > > W3LPL > > > > > > - Original Message - > > > > From: dl8yhrfr...@aol.com > > To: donov...@starpower.net > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 9:20:55 PM > > Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage > > > > where can i get such toy? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Urspr ngliche Mitteilung- > > Von: donovanf > > An: TopBand List > > Cc: Jorge Diez - CX6VM > > Verschickt: Mo, 23 Nov 2015 9:39 pm > > Betreff: Re: Topband: fixing beverage > > > > > > > > > > > > A Time Domain Reflectometer is one of the best tools to verify > > the proper performance and isolate faults of a Beverage and many > > other types of antennas. > > > > > > In the case of a Beverage, the TDR allows you to see every > > component of the antenna system from the ham shack all the way > > to the termination resistor. If anything fails you can almost > > always walk directly to it with the needed replacement parts and > > tools in hand. > > > > > > 73 > > Frank > > W3LPL > > > > - Original Message - > > > > From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" < cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com > > > To: "TopBand List" < topband@contesting.com > > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 8:29:15 PM > > Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage > > > > Thanks all you guys for the help > > > > Will do this tests and see what is wrong > > > > 73, > > Jorge > > CX6VM/CW5W > > > > -Mensaje original- > > De: Tom W8JI [ mailto:w...@w8ji.com ] > > Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 02:35 p.m. > > Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM; 'TopBand List' > > Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage > > > >> > >> I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks > ago. > > > > 5-20 dB. Depending on receiver and where it is at on the S meter. > > > > That has to be a poor connection, open, or short between the receiver > and the > > Beverage transformer end of the Beverage. It cannot be at the > termination end. > > > > > >> At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the > >> problem, because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely > deaf, > > right? > > > > No.
Re: Topband: fixing beverage
Jorge, I also have a 4170 and it does do TDR without any additional software or hardware. The user manual has several pages on how to use the 4170 as a TDR. Jim Bennett / W6JHB Folsom, CA > On Nov 23, 2015, at 5:03 PM, donov...@starpower.net wrote: > > Hi Jorge, > > > The AIM4170 has TDR capabilities. I don't own an AIM470, but > surely someone on the Topband reflector can help you use it > as a TDR. > > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > > - Original Message - > > From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" > To: donov...@starpower.net > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 11:56:32 PM > Subject: RE: Topband: fixing beverage > > Hi Frank > > I google and the first option was Campbellsci.es > > In 5 minutes the CX representative emailed me and told me that is a very very > expensive toy for my use :-) > > I have the AIM4170, will do this job? I use the software AIM_852.exe I need > another software or this is OK? > > Thanks, > Jorge > > > -Mensaje original- > De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de > donov...@starpower.net > Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 06:51 p.m. > Para: topband@contesting.com > CC: dl8yhrfr...@aol.com > Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage > > > Hi Frank, > > > My TDR is nearly fifty years old, but still it works great. > > > Array Solutions sells more modern multi-functions devices that are perform > very well as a TDR. Here's an example display from Array Solutions' web site: > > > https://www.arraysolutions.com/images/AIMuhf-TDR-fig1.png > > > The display for a Beverage looks very similar, you can see every component > from the shack to the termination resistor. > > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > > > - Original Message - > > From: dl8yhrfr...@aol.com > To: donov...@starpower.net > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 9:20:55 PM > Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage > > where can i get such toy? > > > > > > > -Urspr ngliche Mitteilung- > Von: donovanf > An: TopBand List > Cc: Jorge Diez - CX6VM > Verschickt: Mo, 23 Nov 2015 9:39 pm > Betreff: Re: Topband: fixing beverage > > > > > > A Time Domain Reflectometer is one of the best tools to verify > the proper performance and isolate faults of a Beverage and many > other types of antennas. > > > In the case of a Beverage, the TDR allows you to see every > component of the antenna system from the ham shack all the way > to the termination resistor. If anything fails you can almost > always walk directly to it with the needed replacement parts and > tools in hand. > > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > > - Original Message - > > From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" < cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com > > To: "TopBand List" < topband@contesting.com > > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 8:29:15 PM > Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage > > Thanks all you guys for the help > > Will do this tests and see what is wrong > > 73, > Jorge > CX6VM/CW5W > > -Mensaje original- > De: Tom W8JI [ mailto:w...@w8ji.com ] > Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 02:35 p.m. > Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM; 'TopBand List' > Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage > >> >> I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks ago. > > 5-20 dB. Depending on receiver and where it is at on the S meter. > > That has to be a poor connection, open, or short between the receiver and the > Beverage transformer end of the Beverage. It cannot be at the termination > end. > > >> At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the >> problem, because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf, > right? > > No. Coax can do this. It happens all the time. Especially at connectors. > >> >> So this can be the cause of a problem in the end resistor or maybe in >> the transformer? I use in this beverage a WX0B beverage boxes > > It can not be at the end resistor termination. > > The problem is if you disturb something it will often start working. You need > to > carefully check one thing at a time. Many times, if not most times, this is > corrosion or tarnish on the center pin of the coax. Sometimes it is a broken > wire, or a bad part from lightning or water. > > The best way to test it is with an SWR meter and do a frequency sweep from > the > house, before you touch the antenna or any outside connections. The frequen
Re: Topband: fixing beverage
Hi Jorge, The AIM4170 has TDR capabilities. I don't own an AIM470, but surely someone on the Topband reflector can help you use it as a TDR. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" To: donov...@starpower.net Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 11:56:32 PM Subject: RE: Topband: fixing beverage Hi Frank I google and the first option was Campbellsci.es In 5 minutes the CX representative emailed me and told me that is a very very expensive toy for my use :-) I have the AIM4170, will do this job? I use the software AIM_852.exe I need another software or this is OK? Thanks, Jorge -Mensaje original- De: Topband [mailto:topband-boun...@contesting.com] En nombre de donov...@starpower.net Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 06:51 p.m. Para: topband@contesting.com CC: dl8yhrfr...@aol.com Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage Hi Frank, My TDR is nearly fifty years old, but still it works great. Array Solutions sells more modern multi-functions devices that are perform very well as a TDR. Here's an example display from Array Solutions' web site: https://www.arraysolutions.com/images/AIMuhf-TDR-fig1.png The display for a Beverage looks very similar, you can see every component from the shack to the termination resistor. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: dl8yhrfr...@aol.com To: donov...@starpower.net Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 9:20:55 PM Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage where can i get such toy? -Urspr ngliche Mitteilung- Von: donovanf An: TopBand List Cc: Jorge Diez - CX6VM Verschickt: Mo, 23 Nov 2015 9:39 pm Betreff: Re: Topband: fixing beverage A Time Domain Reflectometer is one of the best tools to verify the proper performance and isolate faults of a Beverage and many other types of antennas. In the case of a Beverage, the TDR allows you to see every component of the antenna system from the ham shack all the way to the termination resistor. If anything fails you can almost always walk directly to it with the needed replacement parts and tools in hand. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" < cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com > To: "TopBand List" < topband@contesting.com > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 8:29:15 PM Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage Thanks all you guys for the help Will do this tests and see what is wrong 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W -Mensaje original- De: Tom W8JI [ mailto:w...@w8ji.com ] Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 02:35 p.m. Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM; 'TopBand List' Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage > > I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks ago. > 5-20 dB. Depending on receiver and where it is at on the S meter. That has to be a poor connection, open, or short between the receiver and the Beverage transformer end of the Beverage. It cannot be at the termination end. > At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the > problem, because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf, right? No. Coax can do this. It happens all the time. Especially at connectors. > > So this can be the cause of a problem in the end resistor or maybe in > the transformer? I use in this beverage a WX0B beverage boxes > It can not be at the end resistor termination. The problem is if you disturb something it will often start working. You need to carefully check one thing at a time. Many times, if not most times, this is corrosion or tarnish on the center pin of the coax. Sometimes it is a broken wire, or a bad part from lightning or water. The best way to test it is with an SWR meter and do a frequency sweep from the house, before you touch the antenna or any outside connections. The frequency of either adjacent major dips in SWR or impedance will allow you to calculate exactly where the problem is. The MFJ analyzer will do this within a few feet, even on a 1000 foot cable, by using distance to fault. 73 Tom --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electr nico en busca de virus. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: fixing beverage
I noticed that's an AIM. Owen Duffy has written numerous articles about their software and/or hardware, and they are not very flattering. http://owenduffy.net/blog/?s=aim Maybe things have improved lately, but AIM would not be my first choice. His test equipment category is at http://owenduffy.net/blog/?cat=2 and AIM is just one of them. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 3:50 PM, wrote: > Array Solutions sells more modern multi-functions devices that are perform > very well as a TDR. Here's an example display from Array Solutions' web > site: > https://www.arraysolutions.com/images/AIMuhf-TDR-fig1.png > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: fixing beverage
Hi Frank, My TDR is nearly fifty years old, but still it works great. Array Solutions sells more modern multi-functions devices that are perform very well as a TDR. Here's an example display from Array Solutions' web site: https://www.arraysolutions.com/images/AIMuhf-TDR-fig1.png The display for a Beverage looks very similar, you can see every component from the shack to the termination resistor. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: dl8yhrfr...@aol.com To: donov...@starpower.net Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 9:20:55 PM Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage where can i get such toy? -Ursprüngliche Mitteilung- Von: donovanf An: TopBand List Cc: Jorge Diez - CX6VM Verschickt: Mo, 23 Nov 2015 9:39 pm Betreff: Re: Topband: fixing beverage A Time Domain Reflectometer is one of the best tools to verify the proper performance and isolate faults of a Beverage and many other types of antennas. In the case of a Beverage, the TDR allows you to see every component of the antenna system from the ham shack all the way to the termination resistor. If anything fails you can almost always walk directly to it with the needed replacement parts and tools in hand. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" < cx6vm.jo...@gmail.com > To: "TopBand List" < topband@contesting.com > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 8:29:15 PM Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage Thanks all you guys for the help Will do this tests and see what is wrong 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W -Mensaje original- De: Tom W8JI [ mailto:w...@w8ji.com ] Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 02:35 p.m. Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM; 'TopBand List' Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage > > I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks ago. > 5-20 dB. Depending on receiver and where it is at on the S meter. That has to be a poor connection, open, or short between the receiver and the Beverage transformer end of the Beverage. It cannot be at the termination end. > At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the > problem, because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf, right? No. Coax can do this. It happens all the time. Especially at connectors. > > So this can be the cause of a problem in the end resistor or maybe in > the transformer? I use in this beverage a WX0B beverage boxes > It can not be at the end resistor termination. The problem is if you disturb something it will often start working. You need to carefully check one thing at a time. Many times, if not most times, this is corrosion or tarnish on the center pin of the coax. Sometimes it is a broken wire, or a bad part from lightning or water. The best way to test it is with an SWR meter and do a frequency sweep from the house, before you touch the antenna or any outside connections. The frequency of either adjacent major dips in SWR or impedance will allow you to calculate exactly where the problem is. The MFJ analyzer will do this within a few feet, even on a 1000 foot cable, by using distance to fault. 73 Tom --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: fixing beverage
A Time Domain Reflectometer is one of the best tools to verify the proper performance and isolate faults of a Beverage and many other types of antennas. In the case of a Beverage, the TDR allows you to see every component of the antenna system from the ham shack all the way to the termination resistor. If anything fails you can almost always walk directly to it with the needed replacement parts and tools in hand. 73 Frank W3LPL - Original Message - From: "Jorge Diez - CX6VM" To: "TopBand List" Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 8:29:15 PM Subject: Re: Topband: fixing beverage Thanks all you guys for the help Will do this tests and see what is wrong 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W -Mensaje original- De: Tom W8JI [mailto:w...@w8ji.com] Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 02:35 p.m. Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM; 'TopBand List' Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage > > I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks ago. > 5-20 dB. Depending on receiver and where it is at on the S meter. That has to be a poor connection, open, or short between the receiver and the Beverage transformer end of the Beverage. It cannot be at the termination end. > At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the > problem, because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf, > right? No. Coax can do this. It happens all the time. Especially at connectors. > > So this can be the cause of a problem in the end resistor or maybe in > the transformer? I use in this beverage a WX0B beverage boxes > It can not be at the end resistor termination. The problem is if you disturb something it will often start working. You need to carefully check one thing at a time. Many times, if not most times, this is corrosion or tarnish on the center pin of the coax. Sometimes it is a broken wire, or a bad part from lightning or water. The best way to test it is with an SWR meter and do a frequency sweep from the house, before you touch the antenna or any outside connections. The frequency of either adjacent major dips in SWR or impedance will allow you to calculate exactly where the problem is. The MFJ analyzer will do this within a few feet, even on a 1000 foot cable, by using distance to fault. 73 Tom --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: fixing beverage
Thanks all you guys for the help Will do this tests and see what is wrong 73, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W -Mensaje original- De: Tom W8JI [mailto:w...@w8ji.com] Enviado el: lunes, 23 de noviembre de 2015 02:35 p.m. Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM; 'TopBand List' Asunto: Re: Topband: fixing beverage > > I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks ago. > 5-20 dB. Depending on receiver and where it is at on the S meter. That has to be a poor connection, open, or short between the receiver and the Beverage transformer end of the Beverage. It cannot be at the termination end. > At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the > problem, because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf, > right? No. Coax can do this. It happens all the time. Especially at connectors. > > So this can be the cause of a problem in the end resistor or maybe in > the transformer? I use in this beverage a WX0B beverage boxes > It can not be at the end resistor termination. The problem is if you disturb something it will often start working. You need to carefully check one thing at a time. Many times, if not most times, this is corrosion or tarnish on the center pin of the coax. Sometimes it is a broken wire, or a bad part from lightning or water. The best way to test it is with an SWR meter and do a frequency sweep from the house, before you touch the antenna or any outside connections. The frequency of either adjacent major dips in SWR or impedance will allow you to calculate exactly where the problem is. The MFJ analyzer will do this within a few feet, even on a 1000 foot cable, by using distance to fault. 73 Tom --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: fixing beverage
I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks ago. 5-20 dB. Depending on receiver and where it is at on the S meter. That has to be a poor connection, open, or short between the receiver and the Beverage transformer end of the Beverage. It cannot be at the termination end. At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the problem, because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf, right? No. Coax can do this. It happens all the time. Especially at connectors. So this can be the cause of a problem in the end resistor or maybe in the transformer? I use in this beverage a WX0B beverage boxes It can not be at the end resistor termination. The problem is if you disturb something it will often start working. You need to carefully check one thing at a time. Many times, if not most times, this is corrosion or tarnish on the center pin of the coax. Sometimes it is a broken wire, or a bad part from lightning or water. The best way to test it is with an SWR meter and do a frequency sweep from the house, before you touch the antenna or any outside connections. The frequency of either adjacent major dips in SWR or impedance will allow you to calculate exactly where the problem is. The MFJ analyzer will do this within a few feet, even on a 1000 foot cable, by using distance to fault. 73 Tom _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: fixing beverage
Good information from Herb.. Water in the coax can cause attenuation. 73 Bruce-k1fz www.qsl.net/k1fz/beverage_antenna.html On Mon, 23 Nov 2015 10:49:18 -0400, Herbert Schoenbohm wrote: Jorge, 1. Measure the wire resistance in respect to ground and it should show a resistance a little bit higher than your termination value. This will check for breaks in the wire, 2. Put a temporary termination on the end of the coax (any convenient value) and measure it at the shack end. 3. Check both sides of the beverage box with an ohm meter and you should see only a few ohms on both sides. 4. Put a 450 ohm resistor across the Beverage side of the transformer and check from the shack with a MFJ-259 for SWR. 5. If you don't have a MFJ 259 or equivalent try running 1 watt RF out the cable and check the VSWR at the shack. (Most boxes with take a couple of watts for a few seonds assuming you have a 2 watt resistor across the Beverage side terminals. 6. Pull the wire out of the weeds.☺ Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 11/23/2015 10:21 AM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote: Hello I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks ago. At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the problem, because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf, right? So this can be the cause of a problem in the end resistor or maybe in the transformer? I use in this beverage a WX0B beverage boxes What do you I need to test first? Thanks, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: fixing beverage
Not necessarily. I've seen a poor ground cause low signal levels. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 8:21 AM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote: > ... I think the coax is not the problem, because if I have a problem in > the coax, will be completely deaf, right? > _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: fixing beverage
Jorge, 1. Measure the wire resistance in respect to ground and it should show a resistance a little bit higher than your termination value. This will check for breaks in the wire, 2. Put a temporary termination on the end of the coax (any convenient value) and measure it at the shack end. 3. Check both sides of the beverage box with an ohm meter and you should see only a few ohms on both sides. 4. Put a 450 ohm resistor across the Beverage side of the transformer and check from the shack with a MFJ-259 for SWR. 5. If you don't have a MFJ 259 or equivalent try running 1 watt RF out the cable and check the VSWR at the shack. (Most boxes with take a couple of watts for a few seonds assuming you have a 2 watt resistor across the Beverage side terminals. 6. Pull the wire out of the weeds.☺ Herb Schoenbohm, KV4FZ On 11/23/2015 10:21 AM, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote: Hello I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks ago. At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the problem, because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf, right? So this can be the cause of a problem in the end resistor or maybe in the transformer? I use in this beverage a WX0B beverage boxes What do you I need to test first? Thanks, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: fixing beverage
Hello I notice that my USA beverage is lower in 3-4 S units that some weeks ago. At simple view all seems to be OK. I think the coax is not the problem, because if I have a problem in the coax, will be completely deaf, right? So this can be the cause of a problem in the end resistor or maybe in the transformer? I use in this beverage a WX0B beverage boxes What do you I need to test first? Thanks, Jorge CX6VM/CW5W --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband