Re: Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground
- Original Message - From: N1BUG p...@n1bug.com To: ZR z...@jeremy.mv.com Cc: topband@contesting.com Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 6:58 PM Subject: Re: Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground I suspect most Americans are more comfortable with our own measuring system plus our ham bands where antenna formulas are still published in feet and inches. I suspect most (or at least many) Americans are resistant to change and unwilling to give anything different than what they are used to a fair try before dismissing it. When I don't have to deal too extensively with materials made to specific sizes for the U.S. market, I do much of my measuring and work using the metric system. Why? Because once I got used to it, I find it much easier to work with. My notes on projects going back over 20 years usually give dimensions in metric (eg. plate line dimensions for a VHF amplifier in millimeters). I have grown somewhat weary of converting to another system just so that other Americans won't grumble about my choice of units. I may stop that practice. If other Americans don't understand the measurements and can't be bothered to do the conversion, they probably don't really want/need the information. Paul I guess you never heard When in Rome, etc. If those from other countries want to partake on Topband my feeling is they can do the conversion on their end or they dont really want the information. When I join a European forum or look for info on one of their websites it is I who then do the conversion.without complaining. I can work well in metric, I just choose not to when I dont have to. I have no problem using thousandths, or any decimal version, of an inch for any VHF to microwave application, (or all automotive engine and driveline building) my Starrett and other Made In The USA precision measuring instruments work fine, thank you. Carl KM1H ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground
I suspect most (or at least many) Americans are resistant to change and unwilling to give anything different than what they are used to a fair try before dismissing it. When we were kids, we made fun of the occasional bitter old cranky Hams who spent their lives being grouchy and cranky about anything and everything, and were so set in their ways anything new or different didn't deserve to live. Now that we are that older generation, we could at least try to set a better example.A bowl of Kellogg's All-Bran a day works wonders. :-) ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground i ttitudes
Actually, I felt sorry the miserable old **'s. Now I'm in the same position they were in I don't have time to be *that* miserable. I have all the same excuses to be a jerk but I can't see how that would make any of the aches and pains go away nor how it would restore any of the assets wall street has stolen from my life savings. After I took the trouble to learn about inches, fractions of inches, feet, yards, miles, acres, sections, tons, pounds and ounces that *other* funny system was introduced! Oy vay! Talk about a funny system...what about those fluid ounces and the weight kind? Were they smoking something funny in their old pipes? All of my measuring tapes (the ones I use for antenna wires and carpentry (okay - wood butchering) are in feet and inches. I just looked to make sure. Until now I had not considered myself to be bilingual. What a delightful surprise to discover that I really am (evil grin). 73, Bill KU8H On Fri, 2012-11-16 at 11:21 -0500, Tom W8JI wrote: I suspect most (or at least many) Americans are resistant to change and unwilling to give anything different than what they are used to a fair try before dismissing it. When we were kids, we made fun of the occasional bitter old cranky Hams who spent their lives being grouchy and cranky about anything and everything, and were so set in their ways anything new or different didn't deserve to live. Now that we are that older generation, we could at least try to set a better example.A bowl of Kellogg's All-Bran a day works wonders. :-) ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground i ttitudes
snip After I took the trouble to learn about inches, fractions of inches, feet, yards, miles, acres, sections, tons, pounds and ounces that *other* funny system was introduced! Oy vay! Talk about a funny system...what about those fluid ounces and the weight kind? Were they smoking something funny in their old pipes? All of my measuring tapes (the ones I use for antenna wires and carpentry (okay - wood butchering) are in feet and inches. I just looked to make sure. Until now I had not considered myself to be bilingual. What a delightful surprise to discover that I really am (evil grin). 73, Bill KU8H When I was in Nursing School we had to learn to administer liquid drug doses by the english measurements by drops, teaspoon, tablespoon it was a PITA to keep things straight fast and simple. Dealing with millimeters centimeters was cake. You want to measure 58 millimeters in a 100 ml syringe, no problem. Imagine breaking that down to how many drops that comes out to is a different matter. I use the english measurement because so much here is still in that system but give me things that are evenly divided by ten any day if I want it to be simple. Some people like a challenge, I like to reduce difficulties. Whatever works best for you is best. Gary KA1J ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground
CU on the 525 foot band, Carl? Seriously, I suspect that the reason why many of us work in meters when modeling is simply that some of the most useful software products default to that. 73, Pete N4ZR Check out the Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at reversebeacon.blogspot.com. For spots, please go to your favorite ARC V6 or VE7CC DX cluster node. On 11/14/2012 3:48 PM, ZR wrote: I cant find the button to convert that metric stuff to good old USA measurements when posted from this country(-: Subject: Re: Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground I never found a way to model an an antenna over anything but flat, level ground. Not in EZNEC+ 5.0, anyway. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Ken Claerbout k...@verizon.net wrote: Has anyone modeled or have experience with a transmit vertical array, say a 4-square, over uneven ground? By uneven I mean a variance of up to 2 - 3 meters over the footprint of the array elements. ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5394 - Release Date: 11/14/12 ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground
GM Pete et al: That metric stuff is widely used around the globe. Cu on 459 ft. 73 Len SM7BIC On 11/14/2012 3:48 PM, ZR wrote: I cant find the button to convert that metric stuff to good old USA measurements when posted from this country(-: ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground
Pošiljalac: Lennart M lennart.michaels...@telia.com That metric stuff is widely used around the globe. It's fun to learn that Dr. Maxwell, the inventor of electromagnetic waves, had used metric units exclusively 200 years ago. So, why we cannot do the same today? 73, Sinisa YT1NT, VE3EA ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground
Not that Ive noticed. I suspect most Americans are more comfortable with our own measuring system plus our ham bands where antenna formulas are still published in feet and inches. Carl KM1H - Original Message - From: Pete Smith N4ZR n...@contesting.com To: topband@contesting.com Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 6:14 AM Subject: Re: Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground CU on the 525 foot band, Carl? Seriously, I suspect that the reason why many of us work in meters when modeling is simply that some of the most useful software products default to that. 73, Pete N4ZR Check out the Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at reversebeacon.blogspot.com. For spots, please go to your favorite ARC V6 or VE7CC DX cluster node. On 11/14/2012 3:48 PM, ZR wrote: I cant find the button to convert that metric stuff to good old USA measurements when posted from this country(-: Subject: Re: Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground I never found a way to model an an antenna over anything but flat, level ground. Not in EZNEC+ 5.0, anyway. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Ken Claerbout k...@verizon.net wrote: Has anyone modeled or have experience with a transmit vertical array, say a 4-square, over uneven ground? By uneven I mean a variance of up to 2 - 3 meters over the footprint of the array elements. ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5394 - Release Date: 11/14/12 ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5396 - Release Date: 11/15/12 ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground
I suspect most Americans are more comfortable with our own measuring system plus our ham bands where antenna formulas are still published in feet and inches. I suspect most (or at least many) Americans are resistant to change and unwilling to give anything different than what they are used to a fair try before dismissing it. When I don't have to deal too extensively with materials made to specific sizes for the U.S. market, I do much of my measuring and work using the metric system. Why? Because once I got used to it, I find it much easier to work with. My notes on projects going back over 20 years usually give dimensions in metric (eg. plate line dimensions for a VHF amplifier in millimeters). I have grown somewhat weary of converting to another system just so that other Americans won't grumble about my choice of units. I may stop that practice. If other Americans don't understand the measurements and can't be bothered to do the conversion, they probably don't really want/need the information. Paul ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground
Gosh, Paul.why don't you simply keep measuring in our system and avoid the obvious mental wedgie you keep forming PLUS you won't be so weary?!?!?! 72, Jim Rodenkirch K9JWV Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 18:58:48 -0500 From: p...@n1bug.com To: z...@jeremy.mv.com CC: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground I suspect most Americans are more comfortable with our own measuring system plus our ham bands where antenna formulas are still published in feet and inches. I suspect most (or at least many) Americans are resistant to change and unwilling to give anything different than what they are used to a fair try before dismissing it. When I don't have to deal too extensively with materials made to specific sizes for the U.S. market, I do much of my measuring and work using the metric system. Why? Because once I got used to it, I find it much easier to work with. My notes on projects going back over 20 years usually give dimensions in metric (eg. plate line dimensions for a VHF amplifier in millimeters). I have grown somewhat weary of converting to another system just so that other Americans won't grumble about my choice of units. I may stop that practice. If other Americans don't understand the measurements and can't be bothered to do the conversion, they probably don't really want/need the information. Paul ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground
All, This argument has been going on ever since I got out of Engineering school, and frankly, it's not going to stop until my generation is gone. I'm an EE and I work in my own machine shop in my (new) retirement. I work in Imperial units because I THINK in Imperial units - it's what I learned as a wee bairn. I KNOW what an inch and a foot are, instinctively, and although I have no problem working in metric, I prefer not to because the units are non-instinctive - to ME. I care not a whit if metric calculations are faster or somehow superior; I don't think in metric - period. Now, two of my kids are 1990's vintage EEs, and they grew up on metric. I was taken aback when one of them - in high school - described a dimension to me by holding his fingers THIS far apart and stating: oh, it's about 10 cm. When his generation largely displaces mine in the workforce, metric will have won. It won't be better or worse than Imperial measurement - it will just BE. Me, I'll continue working - and thinking - in inches, feet, mils, and turning out good work to precise dimensions, while ignoring snobs that presume that I just don't get it. 73, geo - n4ua On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 7:05 PM, James Rodenkirch rodenkirch_...@msn.comwrote: Gosh, Paul.why don't you simply keep measuring in our system and avoid the obvious mental wedgie you keep forming PLUS you won't be so weary?!?!?! 72, Jim Rodenkirch K9JWV Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 18:58:48 -0500 From: p...@n1bug.com To: z...@jeremy.mv.com CC: topband@contesting.com Subject: Re: Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground I suspect most Americans are more comfortable with our own measuring system plus our ham bands where antenna formulas are still published in feet and inches. I suspect most (or at least many) Americans are resistant to change and unwilling to give anything different than what they are used to a fair try before dismissing it. When I don't have to deal too extensively with materials made to specific sizes for the U.S. market, I do much of my measuring and work using the metric system. Why? Because once I got used to it, I find it much easier to work with. My notes on projects going back over 20 years usually give dimensions in metric (eg. plate line dimensions for a VHF amplifier in millimeters). I have grown somewhat weary of converting to another system just so that other Americans won't grumble about my choice of units. I may stop that practice. If other Americans don't understand the measurements and can't be bothered to do the conversion, they probably don't really want/need the information. Paul ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground
Since I started this thread, hopefully this will end it. I was talking about a difference on the order of 6' - 9', which I think was understood. But there are always those few that like to stir the pot, no matter how petty. Thanks to those who provided useful feedback. I'll follow up directly as I get further into the project. Ken K4ZW ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground
Here in South Africa we always had the imperial system till somewhere in the middle sixties and before that we changed from pounds to decimal Rand and cents. It was met with some resistance but soon everybody got used to it. As I have a British lathe and milling machine in my garage /workshop, and is part time building a model steam train from imperial plans, I can switch between metric and imperial quite easily. Most eletronic callipers and micrometers have a little mode button to measure in both systems. 73 Raoul ZS1REC I'm an EE and I work in my own machine shop in my (new) retirement. I work in Imperial units because I THINK in Imperial units - it's what I learned as a wee bairn. I KNOW what an inch and a foot are, instinctively, and although I have no problem working in metric, I prefer not to because the units are non-instinctive - to ME. I care not a whit if metric calculations are faster or somehow superior; I don't think in metric - period. 73, geo - n4ua ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground
I cant find the button to convert that metric stuff to good old USA measurements when posted from this country(-: Subject: Re: Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground I never found a way to model an an antenna over anything but flat, level ground. Not in EZNEC+ 5.0, anyway. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Ken Claerbout k...@verizon.net wrote: Has anyone modeled or have experience with a transmit vertical array, say a 4-square, over uneven ground? By uneven I mean a variance of up to 2 - 3 meters over the footprint of the array elements. ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5394 - Release Date: 11/14/12 ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground
Has anyone modeled or have experience with a transmit vertical array, say a 4-square, over uneven ground? By uneven I mean a variance of up to 2 - 3 meters over the footprint of the array elements. I have plenty of room at this QTH but the terrain is fairly uneven. I've done some modeling but would like to see if my findings compare with others that may have done the same. Modeling was done with radials on the ground, not elevated. Thanks Ken K4ZW ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Re: Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground
I never found a way to model an an antenna over anything but flat, level ground. Not in EZNEC+ 5.0, anyway. 73, Mike www.w0btu.com On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Ken Claerbout k...@verizon.net wrote: Has anyone modeled or have experience with a transmit vertical array, say a 4-square, over uneven ground? By uneven I mean a variance of up to 2 - 3 meters over the footprint of the array elements. ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
Topband: Vertical Array Over Uneven Ground
It seems to me and I may be wrong but dont you get the tilted ground answer just by tilting your vertical elements with respect to ground in Eznec? From what I see with doing that the take off angle mostly follows the ground with at least 1/4 wave or less vertical antennas. Lee K7TJR OR ___ Topband reflector - topband@contesting.com
