Re: The fate of Upstart
On 03.12.2014 23:32, Vittorio wrote: If really you could succeed in getting rid of polkit and dbus, that would be a very good work. I completely agree with you. Polkit has given me a lot of headaches. Well, you're welcomed to join me :) I'll yet have to sort out certain conceptional issues regarding authentication. For now, I'm pretty clear that it will be something 9P and factotum based and shall be compatible with the usual Plan9 ways (so it's also suited for distributed systems). But I haven't sorted out, who exactly will maintain the sessions (and session keys), and how to do service startup and mounting, especially regarding the differences between Linux and Plan9. My current thoughts go like this: * user services visible to some user can be expected to be posted within some directory in his home directory. perhaps this will directory will be configurable via env (to support multiple sessions w/o separate namespaces) * system services are posted in some global (world readable dir) * maybe: those which are accessible to some user are also symlinked to his home / session dir * traditional group-based access controls can be used here * for finer access control, services can be authenticated via factotum (user and host factotum) * an separate control agent (maybe acting on user login, eg. via pam, etc) generates keys for system services and adds them to host factotum, so system services can be accessed by them * users that should be allowed to access them also get the corresponding keys into their user / session factotum, so it can authenticate * in case we really need a hard separation between sessions (so session privileges cannot be stole by the same user, into other sessions), we can run the session factotums under a different uid and configure it to never tell secrets uhm, I might expect too much Plan9 knowledge here ... sorry for that ;-o maybe we should get into deeper discussion on the 9fans list. cu -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consulting +49-151-27565287 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The fate of Upstart
On 29.11.2014 22:31, I.E.G. wrote: Hi, I was a little surprised to see the ...has been converted to an upstart job message some time ago in response to a ~$ /etc/init.d/ stop/start/restart/foo . I tried the ~$ service stop/start/restart/foo and it either didn't work or produced the same ...has been converted to an upstart job. Yeah, had the same problems... I'll just offer one example of what I don't want to see . A deployment or migration such as the the protracted abortion that was PulseAudio . I still have several hardware instances that never did (and I suspect never will) tolerate PulseAudio. For me, it at least works w/ my hardware, but far from rock-stable. I regularily have to kill and restart it. In fact, I never really understood why it's necessary at all. Okay, moving more stuff into userland has some benefits (eg. adding virtual devices running as separate servers, etc) - but then it should be done more consequently, like Plan9 does. Maybe, if i've someday got enough spare time, I'll fork it and rebuild it to an plan9'ish system-wide service. Then it would make sense to move all audio applications to that service only (dropping all native alsa support). But for now, I'm still too occupied with other things. For now I'm more concerned with getting rid of dbus/polkit. I even had PA/Devl tell me to upgrade my month old hardware in order to make it work (a long and only slightly humorous story I'll spare you ) . Well, the usual Lennartists behaviour ... cu -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consulting +49-151-27565287 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The fate of Upstart
On 28.11.2014 13:41, Ben Tinner wrote: Hi, Recently, the developers of Ubuntu have decided to migrate the init system from upstart to systemd. So, I would like to find out what will happen to upstart after Ubuntu complete its transition to systemd. That might also depend on which init systems the debianfork project is going to support upstart (besides openrc and sysv init), and how many Ubuntu folks move over to debianfork. I, personally, *will* move over, as soon as systemd becomes mandatory (if there wasn't debianfork, it would be Gentoo). The already mandatory Lennartware already caused more than enough pain. Actually, I'm preparing a fork of NetworkManager, getting rid of all the dbus and polkit crap, which causes more problems than it solves. Haven't decided yet, whether the interface will be fuse or 9P (both have their pros and cons), but definitively will be a data driven filesystem-based approach. In the next round, I'll heavily trim down network-manager-gnome to get rid of all the unnecessary stuff (eg. I dont use BT, and i dont want it. period.) cu -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consulting +49-151-27565287 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The fate of Upstart
On 29.11.2014 00:39, Dimitri John Ledkov wrote: Hi, Similarly, 16.04 LTS is not yet planned, thus i'm not sure whether it will or won't ship upstart. If it does, it will be another 5 years from then, or 2021. I really hope, it will continue to ship upstart and doesn't push towards systemd than it already does (eg. could anybody perhaps explain, what I really need that logind for ?). Otherwise people will move away (and never come back). cu -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consulting +49-151-27565287 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The fate of Upstart
On 28 November 2014 at 12:41, Ben Tinner bentin...@yahoo.com.sg wrote: Hello Recently, the developers of Ubuntu have decided to migrate the init system from upstart to systemd. So, I would like to find out what will happen to upstart after Ubuntu complete its transition to systemd. Will development of upstart be abandoned after the transition is completed? At the moment Ubuntu Phone, Ubuntu (and derivatives) and ChromeOS are the largest users of Upstart. Ubuntu 14.04 LTS is a long-term supported release, 5 years, until 2019. Similarly, 16.04 LTS is not yet planned, thus i'm not sure whether it will or won't ship upstart. If it does, it will be another 5 years from then, or 2021. I do not know the support time-frames of the phone product, it's a question for Canonical and their partners, rather than the Ubuntu project. But at the moment it is based on Upstart as well. 2019-2021 is far enough into the future that all predictions are moot. Upstart is very large and stable piece of software and it is not under active (rewrite) / feature work. Thus latest work is mostly focused on extending and creating optional features or fixing corner case bugs in the core. One of the largest portions of work that is not merged is incomplete support for FreeBSD kernel (and GNU user-space) as shipped by the Debian kFreeBSD port. That has stalled a bit, since my interests have shifted and Debian kFreeBSD port is no longer planned for official-official release. -- Regards, Dimitri. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
