Re: [ubuntu-marketing] success brings responsibility
On 15 August 2010 19:11, shankara shankaranarayan...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] All different Linux distributions are part of a same ecosystem and we need to stress on that in our marketing exercise. Success of ubuntu is the success of GnU/linux as a whole. [snip] And vice versa. Obsiously, Ubuntu wouldn't be what it is without all the other distros, arguably with Debian and Redhat as the two most important ones. Still, we're talking about marketing, so the question has to be: who are we targeting?. If we're targeting the great masses who don't have any experience with, or opinions about FLOSS, then we have to avoid confusion. I think Linux for human beings was a very good initial slogan to get everyone in the community to get aquiainted with Ubuntu, but now that task has been accomplished, and everyone who's interested in Linux, knows that Ubuntu is a distro. Now, we need to go to another level. It's easy to mention Firefox and OpenOffice.org, because it's very easy to explain what benefits it brings to the user. If we keep on saying that it's a slightly better GNU/Linux distro, then we might hope to attract slightly more users than the other distros. We might also end up just stealing users from those distros without attracting the users that those distros are failing to attract. That would indeed be a disservice to our neighbours in the ecosystem. What we need to do, is to focus on the people who have never heard of Linux and remember that most people really don't _care_ about the kernel. I think Linux in particular, is something we need to actively avoid in marketing, just because it forces us to go into technical details which ultimately surves to push users away from us. Then, in desperation of showing it's a real product, we might feel compelled to invoke the Google card by mentioning Android. Now we suddenly find ourselves explaining why Ubuntu is not a desktop system for mobile phones. Apple has given us a great opportunity to penetrate the real markets, simply by showing people that there might be real alternatives to Windows. Most people have heard about Apple for ages, but they've never given it a shot because Microsoft has been omnipresent. Does that remind you of something? I think that if people are willing to try one alternative, then they should be willing to try two. But we have to speak the same language if we want people to listen, and ranting on about Linux, GNU, GPL, distibutions, X11, etc.. It just doesn't work. Of course, if we assume this role as a natural portal into the world of free software, then we also have to be willing to teach these things to new users. If people are willing to learn, then we'll teach them all about kernels, distrubutions, desktop environments, interprocess communications, cross desktop collaboration and all the other cool things. But that's not marketing, that's community support. Our marketing should not be about giving thanks to all the great contributors and distributors of free software. Is should be about answering the one question that matters: What's in it for me? Best wishes, Jo-Erlend Schinstad -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] success brings responsibility
On Mon, 2010-08-16 at 09:21 +0200, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote: Our marketing should not be about giving thanks to all the great contributors and distributors of free software. Is should be about answering the one question that matters: What's in it for me? Or just What is this?, I'm a lefty so I don't personally subscribe to the notion that a human beings default position is selfish personal gratification. I still understand what your saying of course, but I'd bare a couple of things in mind: Free and Open source is a very important part of what we're doing here, we need to communicate it as effectively as possible to _all_ users. So that users understand the nature of where their software comes from. I know a lot of materialists don't appreciate this aspect, but without that understanding users will have mistaken notions anything from considering FOSS to be a charity, an accident or simply a government service hand out. As a adjunct to that argument it's worth keeping various notions and understandings in reserve. Many people will respond to practical benefits, some won't. Some are looking for the moral argument, some are looking for the social argument others are looking for the political side of it. Best stock up on everything. If your going to do mass marketing then we can be clever about communicating on multiple non-interfering levels. Pick up more people than just it works and perhaps the Apple and it's cool, mix in a bit It's sustainable and a pinch of You actually get to own it. Martin, -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] success brings responsibility
On 16 August 2010 09:40, Martin Owens docto...@gmail.com wrote: Or just What is this?, I'm a lefty so I don't personally subscribe to the notion that a human beings default position is selfish personal gratification. Yes, but I think it's easier to sell instant gratification than it is to sell the long term benefits of altruism. Free and Open source is a very important part of what we're doing here, we need to communicate it as effectively as possible to _all_ users. So that users understand the nature of where their software comes from. I know a lot of materialists don't appreciate this aspect, but without that understanding users will have mistaken notions anything from considering FOSS to be a charity, an accident or simply a government service hand out. I personally share your concerns and understand the need to teach software freedom. However, I also think that a school with no pupils serve no purpose. I believe that Linux is a strong enough brand to attract those who are willing to switch operating systems in order to be a part of a social movement and those who are already willing to give Linux a go, will find Ubuntu. I also believe -- strongly -- that the wild success of Firefox and OpenOffice.org is not caused by their development model, but by the fact that they're great pieces of software that's readily available to people. That's how we should market Ubuntu. It's a good OS and it's available to you wherever you are, whatever language and at no cost. And just like you can install Firefox without removing or replacing Internet Explorer, you can install Ubuntu without replacing Windows. Or, if you're just curious, you can even run it directly from the CD without committing to anything at all. If you're a normal computer user, it doesn't really matter which operating system you choose, whether it's Windows 7, OS X or Ubuntu 10.04LTS -- they're all good. But obviously, since you don't have to invest time and money in order to try Ubuntu, the best solution is to try it first. As a adjunct to that argument it's worth keeping various notions and understandings in reserve. Many people will respond to practical benefits, some won't. Some are looking for the moral argument, some are looking for the social argument others are looking for the political side of it. Best stock up on everything. I believe that if you try to eat and speak at the same time, then you end up doing neither very well. It's not that I'm horribly materialistic or that I don't care about FLOSS, quite the contrary. I just think it's time that someone tries to compete with Apple and Microsoft on their level, and I think that someone should be us. We certainly have the software to back it up. Jo-Erlend Schinstad -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] success brings responsibility
On Mon, 2010-08-16 at 16:01 +0200, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote: Yes, but I think it's easier to sell instant gratification than it is to sell the long term benefits of altruism. Humanism isn't a long term consideration, it's just how we're built to work. Humans are social animals and there are many other levers. I'm weary to follow your views because they seem somewhat basic compared with my experience talking about Ubuntu and FOSS with the general public overt the years. I personally share your concerns and understand the need to teach software freedom. However, I also think that a school with no pupils serve no purpose. That's a problem with construction not materials. It's quite possible to express a whole host of views in an attractive way without being all geeky about them. I think you confuse the inability to communicate with the subject to communicate. I believe that Linux is a strong enough brand to attract those who are willing to switch operating systems in order to be a part of a social movement and those who are already willing to give Linux a go, will find Ubuntu. Linux is a fairly poor brand in the desktop space, something we've discussed here in the past. It's an ok brand for servers and embedded OEMs but we've seen it fall apart in the consumer space. I don't think we have hitch FOSS onto that wagon. I also believe -- strongly -- that the wild success of Firefox and OpenOffice.org is not caused by their development model, but by the fact that they're great pieces of software that's readily available to people. And that the alternatives were either so expensive or so utterly awful? Or that the development model allowed these products to be readily available or great? Mozilla is an interesting case because they actually have an income. I don't think they've lost their FOSS cred. I don't think they had to strip it out of their marketing. It just became more finessed and better communicated. OpenOffice is a bit of an example though, it's fairly cut off from users and could do with having exactly the sort of FOSS marketing that we're trying to import here. Economically speaking a popular office suite should have no trouble getting developers in multiple organisations and yet oo seems to not. It suffers from this notion that users need not concern themselves with the nature of the software development method and hence doesn't develop to it's popularity. Hench why the feeling seems to be that Firefox is a progressive movement and OpenOffice is a charity. Listen to how people talk about these products, it's not just technical benefits. (it's not just social benefits either mind) I believe that if you try to eat and speak at the same time, then you end up doing neither very well. It's not that I'm horribly materialistic or that I don't care about FLOSS, quite the contrary. I just think it's time that someone tries to compete with Apple and Microsoft on their level, and I think that someone should be us. We certainly have the software to back it up. Does anyone have a couple of billion dollars to not only invest in head on advertising campaigns but organisational kickbacks, educational corruption and your basic market control? I don't think it possible to copy Apple (I wouldn't want to copy Microsoft) not only because we don't have the resources for that kind of strategy, but also because we're talking about a completely different industry: We're talking about computers, they're talking about appliances. We want to make sure users have the tools to perform any job, they want users to buy the latest specific tool to do a specific job. We want users able to educate themselves at any level, they want users to be educated enough to prefer their products. There _is_ a fundamental difference which must be accounted for before we run off to make marketing materials. We can learn things, but we must relocate everything we learn into the context of the ecosystem we live. Martin, -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] success brings responsibility
On 16 August 2010 16:37, Martin Owens docto...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 2010-08-16 at 16:01 +0200, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote: Yes, but I think it's easier to sell instant gratification than it is to sell the long term benefits of altruism. Humanism isn't a long term consideration, it's just how we're built to work. Humans are social animals and there are many other levers. Yes, but we are still talking about marketing, aren't we? Humans are social animals, yes. That's why Ubuntu has Facebook, Twitter and integration with peoples favorite IM built right into it. That's what most people care about. I don't personally like Facebook, Twitter, Yahoo IM and MSN, but my personal views are not important. I will use all those buzzwords for all their worth in order to help people to _try Ubuntu_. Let me put it another way. Most people are interested in politics on some level, but how many are actually activists or members of a political party? I'm talking about selling electic cars even to those who are not members of Greenpeace. I'm weary to follow your views because they seem somewhat basic compared with my experience talking about Ubuntu and FOSS with the general public overt the years. Now, that's interesting. What do you tell them and how do people respond? That's a problem with construction not materials. It's quite possible to express a whole host of views in an attractive way without being all geeky about them. I think you confuse the inability to communicate with the subject to communicate. Yes, you're right. I firmly believe in the inability to communicate radical and abstract ideas in a way that causes people to make quick decisions. That's why I'd rather postpone the philosophy and ideology to a later stage, when people have actually seen and tried the product. Linux is a fairly poor brand in the desktop space, something we've discussed here in the past. It's an ok brand for servers and embedded OEMs but we've seen it fall apart in the consumer space. I don't think we have hitch FOSS onto that wagon. Yes, Linux has failed utterly on the desktop and everyone knows it. The year of the Linux desktop has become a joke. Still, you seem to belive that it's a good idea to use it as much as possible in the marketing of Ubuntu. That is incomprehensible to me. I'd much rather focus on branding Ubuntu and talking about the product than adopt the FUD and misunderstandings that have plagued Linux for more than a decade. And that the alternatives were either so expensive or so utterly awful? Or that the development model allowed these products to be readily available or great? I really don't think most people care how Firefox and OpenOffice.org came to be the great softwares that they are... At least not initially. After using them for a while, sure they'll wonder how it's possible that OpenOffice.org is available free of charge when it's at least as good as MSO. At this point, they're open to learn about FLOSS philosophy and developement models. They might even be interested in learning how to contribute, though that'll be a very small percentage of the users we can expect to attract in the future. But again, I think this is where community support comes into the picture. I believe that marketing should focus on the product and helping people to try it out for themselves, so that they can see if it's something they could enjoy or benefit from. Mozilla is an interesting case because they actually have an income. I don't think they've lost their FOSS cred. I don't think they had to strip it out of their marketing. It just became more finessed and better communicated. Who cares about FOSS cred and why is it interesting that Mozilla has an income? Have you had a look at their site, they're doing exactly what I want us to do with Ubuntu. This is what they're marketing: * It's the worlds greatest web browser. * It's fast * It's secure * It's made for the way you use the web. * It's free and easy to install. They don't mention FOSS at all, not even indirectly. Even if you look at their Mission page, it doesn't talk about source code or software freedom. They focus on their product, and people seem to like it. Does anyone have a couple of billion dollars to not only invest in head on advertising campaigns but organisational kickbacks, educational corruption and your basic market control? That is an example of something we _must not do_ if we are to be taken seriously. That is something people expect from Linux fanatics, which is yet another good reason why we should distance us from it and focus on promoting Ubuntu in a positive way. We gain no sympathy by making others look bad, and it's certainly not a good way to promote the humanism you referred to earlier. I don't think it possible to copy Apple (I wouldn't want to copy Microsoft) not only because we don't have the resources for that kind of strategy, but also because we're talking about a completely different
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] success brings responsibility
This kind of debates can go on forever. Unless we finally decide what are our sentiments regarding this kind of issues we'll never move forward than being a place to toss out ideas. And believe it or not there isn't a Canonical team ready to work on this ideas, there'll never be one, for a lot of reasons, and nobody except ourselves will do anything to promote Ubuntu; so either we develop a more organized marketing strategy or we all watch silently how Ubuntu fails or successes on it's own. We all share the same frustrations and the same point of view on most subjects and most importantly we all want the same thing. What do we have to do to stop wasting bandwidth in this kind of issues and to get to the point? 2010/8/16 Jo-Erlend Schinstad joerlend.schins...@gmail.com On 16 August 2010 16:37, Martin Owens docto...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 2010-08-16 at 16:01 +0200, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote: Yes, but I think it's easier to sell instant gratification than it is to sell the long term benefits of altruism. Humanism isn't a long term consideration, it's just how we're built to work. Humans are social animals and there are many other levers. Yes, but we are still talking about marketing, aren't we? Humans are social animals, yes. That's why Ubuntu has Facebook, Twitter and integration with peoples favorite IM built right into it. That's what most people care about. I don't personally like Facebook, Twitter, Yahoo IM and MSN, but my personal views are not important. I will use all those buzzwords for all their worth in order to help people to _try Ubuntu_. Let me put it another way. Most people are interested in politics on some level, but how many are actually activists or members of a political party? I'm talking about selling electic cars even to those who are not members of Greenpeace. I'm weary to follow your views because they seem somewhat basic compared with my experience talking about Ubuntu and FOSS with the general public overt the years. Now, that's interesting. What do you tell them and how do people respond? That's a problem with construction not materials. It's quite possible to express a whole host of views in an attractive way without being all geeky about them. I think you confuse the inability to communicate with the subject to communicate. Yes, you're right. I firmly believe in the inability to communicate radical and abstract ideas in a way that causes people to make quick decisions. That's why I'd rather postpone the philosophy and ideology to a later stage, when people have actually seen and tried the product. Linux is a fairly poor brand in the desktop space, something we've discussed here in the past. It's an ok brand for servers and embedded OEMs but we've seen it fall apart in the consumer space. I don't think we have hitch FOSS onto that wagon. Yes, Linux has failed utterly on the desktop and everyone knows it. The year of the Linux desktop has become a joke. Still, you seem to belive that it's a good idea to use it as much as possible in the marketing of Ubuntu. That is incomprehensible to me. I'd much rather focus on branding Ubuntu and talking about the product than adopt the FUD and misunderstandings that have plagued Linux for more than a decade. And that the alternatives were either so expensive or so utterly awful? Or that the development model allowed these products to be readily available or great? I really don't think most people care how Firefox and OpenOffice.org came to be the great softwares that they are... At least not initially. After using them for a while, sure they'll wonder how it's possible that OpenOffice.org is available free of charge when it's at least as good as MSO. At this point, they're open to learn about FLOSS philosophy and developement models. They might even be interested in learning how to contribute, though that'll be a very small percentage of the users we can expect to attract in the future. But again, I think this is where community support comes into the picture. I believe that marketing should focus on the product and helping people to try it out for themselves, so that they can see if it's something they could enjoy or benefit from. Mozilla is an interesting case because they actually have an income. I don't think they've lost their FOSS cred. I don't think they had to strip it out of their marketing. It just became more finessed and better communicated. Who cares about FOSS cred and why is it interesting that Mozilla has an income? Have you had a look at their site, they're doing exactly what I want us to do with Ubuntu. This is what they're marketing: * It's the worlds greatest web browser. * It's fast * It's secure * It's made for the way you use the web. * It's free and easy to install. They don't mention FOSS at all, not even indirectly. Even if you look at their Mission page, it doesn't talk about source code or software
[ubuntu-marketing] success brings responsibility
This kind of debates can go on forever. Unless we finally decide what are our sentiments regarding this kind of issues we'll never move forward than being a place to toss out ideas. And believe it or not there isn't a Canonical team ready to work on these ideas and nobody except ourselves will do anything to promote Ubuntu; so either we develop a more organized marketing strategy or we all watch silently how Ubuntu fails or successes on it's own. Constructive criticism is great but we can't be always in the same stage, the next step is to say, great what do we do about it?. We all share the same frustrations and we all share the same point of view on most subjects and most importantly we all want the same thing. What do we have to do to stop wasting bandwidth in this kind of issues and to get to the point? -- Lisandro H. Vaccaro -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] success brings responsibility
On Mon, 2010-08-16 at 20:06 +0200, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote: Yes, but we are still talking about marketing, aren't we? Humans are social animals, yes. That's why Ubuntu has Facebook, Twitter and integration with peoples favorite IM built right into it. That's what most people care about. I don't personally like Facebook, Twitter, Yahoo IM and MSN, but my personal views are not important. I will use all those buzzwords for all their worth in order to help people to _try Ubuntu_. Let me put it another way. Most people are interested in politics on some level, but how many are actually activists or members of a political party? I'm talking about selling electic cars even to those who are not members of Greenpeace. This inability to be clever about marketing both product and culture is a marketing philosophy I can't support. It is fundamentally flawed in it's ability provide a sustainable outcome of either materially or financially involved users that result in substantive economic progress. I want to promote the product. I love being able to give Ubuntu to random people and know they'll love it. But that doesn't stop me mentioning that it's free and open source even to the disinterested. It's an important central aspect. Perhaps we're just talking at cross purposes though. You might think I mean to promote only ideals, whilst I in a similar blunder consider you to want to only promote technical artifact. Either way we should sort out a commonality that's a little deeper than just to express a marketing plan beyond the very first use of Ubuntu. Marketing is as much about building a brand awareness as it is getting people involved in the software. Perhaps we differ in that I believe FOSS should be a brand worth promoting in marketing materials even if it's not the central theme or subject. Martin, -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] success brings responsibility
On Mon, 2010-08-16 at 19:07 -0300, Lisandro Vaccaro wrote: However Ubuntu doesn't even have a clear mission, I mean a OS for everybody in any language sounds great but it's totally flawed, first because it's not a lot more accessible than any other OS and second because the other OS are already translated to at least as many languages as Ubuntu. If we don't know which are really what makes us better than the others, how can we sell our product? There comes the open source issue, we must always mention that Ubuntu is free and open source and it should be pointed that thanks to that Ubuntu has so many good qualities, but FOSS should be only a tool to promote Ubuntu, we don't have to focus on promoting FOSS. It's ridiculous to sell a car and instead of talking about the quality of the product focusing on how the car is assembled, what it is logical to do is to say that: thanks to the great assembling process all cars are of incredible quality. So every time you mention FOSS it should be like this: Ubuntu is free and open source, which means that... a) It's already paid for b) It's a scientific peer review c) It's open to scrutiny d) It's a community resource e) It's educationally supportive f) It can make toast. different tools, no? Martin, -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
[ubuntu-marketing] Marketing etc.
OK here is my view as much as it is worth. There are a couple of points of view that are going back and forth. On Saturday night at Ubuntu Vancouver's Main Event, Randall showed a few slides from Google indicating a fall in the interest Googled regarding Ubuntu over the last several months. This was indicating to me that interest was waining in Ubuntu somewhat, OR, Ubuntu is such a good product that once installed, there was no need to ever Google Ubuntu again. Hm, somehow I doubt that. OR, mostly Ubuntu is being installed by Techies and there was no need to Google Ubuntu again. OR, maybe most of the techies have already installed Ubuntu, are satisfied with it and don't need to Google Ubuntu again. I think that the point that may be missed here is, have we fullfilled a need already of technically minded folks that have a really good OS. My point is that perhaps we should be trying to expose the great unwashed end users to Ubuntu? Most of them don't know what Ubuntu is and if they do, they still have seen no great need to change from what they are comfortable using as present. They may see it as a curiosity and that is about it. Ubuntu Vancouver's policy is that we don't do dual boots at Support Saturday. I am not so sure if that is such a good idea in retrospect. I am the ultimate end user and I came to be a Ubuntu use via the dual boot route. I think that it is a huge stretch to ask someone to give up their comfortable OS to go onto a new one untried before. Ah, but what about the Live Disc you say! I would surmise that most of them are handed out, get put somewhere and forgotten about. The others I think are tried out, and put away somewhere and forgotten about. I think that there are very few that actually make it to a full install, single or dual boot. So as I have said before you have to instill the need before much will happen. How will the need be instilled is what the marketing section should be concerned with. FLOSS and freedom I don't think will have a lot to do with that. It will take smoke. mirrors and lots of shiny flashy parts to attract the attention required to make Ubuntu start to grow again. Understand that is is written by an end user that is not in the business of computers, but is very curious about computers, hence that is why I am an Ubuntu user! And, I don't usually have this many words to say about anything as I am also very shallow too! -- Ian Roscoe Ross breathe in | breathe out | move on. -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
