Re: Temporary REVU package storage
Thanks Neil, Am Freitag, den 17.08.2007, 13:31 +0100 schrieb Neil Wilson: I'm sure the limits and space are very welcome. Bear in mind that Launchpad has Private Package Archives as of next Wednesday. Check out https://help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart for more info. Have a nice day, Daniel signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Temporary REVU package storage
Thomas Leonard [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There are over 7,000 bugs filed against packages in Universe and Multiverse. Add to that hundreds of packages that possibly 1 individual thinks should be added to the archive. And this is all to be supported by a few dozen volunteer MOTUs? Many of whom have full-time RL jobs/school/wives/husbands/girlfriends/boyfriends/children, etc. Tell me how we are supposed to manage that? You can't. But, these people still need a way to distribute their programs. If someone makes a package that's only useful to 10 Ubuntu users in the whole world, then the only recommended way to get it to them is to get it into Universe. Yet, the full review process doesn't make sense for such a small audience. How about suggesting that these packagers first create a Zero Install package (http://0install.net) and maintain that on their own web-site for a while? Then MOTU could *invite* authors of desirable packages to get them into Universe, rather than having people submit everything and the reviewers being too polite to turn them away? 0install doesn't teach contributors how to package and integrate their package in the rest of the distribution. I doesn't help to establish a communication with other ubuntu developers either. Both points are IMO important. I'd rather see them maintaining their package in their PPA on launchpad. This way the maintainers are automatically forced to package things properly. This is similar to the development model used in the distributed version control systems: let people publish whatever they want on their own site and the 'official' maintainer pulls the bits they want. If you don't have to be accepted by MOTU to distribute packages with security, updates, dependency handling, etc then there's less pressure to get every trivial package in Universe in the first place. This applies to the PPA approach as well. -- Gruesse/greetings, Reinhard Tartler, KeyID 945348A4 -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Temporary REVU package storage
Sorry Scott, but we're going to have to disagree on that point. Fundamentally ubuntu development is based around launchpad, and you have to get involved in that if you want to deal with bugs, upgrades and the like. To then require people to learn an entirely different system for new packages is frankly a waste of community effort. With REVU out of action, this is the time to seize the moment and merge the new package system with the sync and update regimes already in place If the MOTU community is genuinely interested in encouraging new software into the universe (and from my own experience it doesn't feel like that at all), then you need to reduce the learning curve and harmonise the processes. Not increase it on ideological grounds. Now I'm sure that MOTUs don't believe that they are alienating developers. But your current processes will leave people with that feeling. What you have to remember is that developers are busy people too. I certainly don't have time to sit on IRC shouting forlornly into the ether until somebody deems it appropriate to answer just to get a package reviewed. Much more sensible that I subscribe the 'motu-reviewers' group to a [needs packaging] bug and come back later once I get an email telling me that something has happened. That way I can get something else done in the mean time. I would ask that you all consider the load that you place upon people want to contribute to Ubuntu. QA is a good thing, but when it becomes alienating then it is failing its purpose. NeilW -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Temporary REVU package storage
Hi Neil, Neil Wilson wrote: Sorry Scott, but we're going to have to disagree on that point. Fundamentally ubuntu development is based around launchpad, and you have to get involved in that if you want to deal with bugs, upgrades and the like. Nope. Launchpad is just a tool like bugzilla, opensuse buildservice or subversion/cvs or whatever tool you use. To then require people to learn an entirely different system for new packages is frankly a waste of community effort. With REVU out of action, this is the time to seize the moment and merge the new package system with the sync and update regimes already in place Ubuntu is not a distro which is standalone. Ubuntu builds upon Debian, and Debian doesn't use Launchpad or any Canonical tool which is used as tool most of the time for Ubuntu. If the MOTU community is genuinely interested in encouraging new software into the universe (and from my own experience it doesn't feel like that at all), then you need to reduce the learning curve and harmonise the processes. Not increase it on ideological grounds. If you let MOTU wannabes learn just the Launchpad way, you will have stupid, dumb drones. They can't do anything just using Launchpad, and with BTS or Bugzilla they will just die like a vampire in the sunlight. Development means not only packaging but as well coding and bugfixing. Using tools like diff and patch, knowning what the other development utilities are doing. You have to know your tools, and you have to know the other tools, other distros are using. Now I'm sure that MOTUs don't believe that they are alienating developers. But your current processes will leave people with that feeling. What you have to remember is that developers are busy people too. I certainly don't have time to sit on IRC shouting forlornly into the ether until somebody deems it appropriate to answer just to get a package reviewed. Much more sensible that I subscribe the 'motu-reviewers' group to a [needs packaging] bug and come back later once I get an email telling me that something has happened. That way I can get something else done in the mean time. No, people with knowledge will agree with me, that just using one tool from one commercial sponsor or distributor will not help the developers and package maintainers at all. As I said, with your approach you create stupid drones. I would ask that you all consider the load that you place upon people want to contribute to Ubuntu. QA is a good thing, but when it becomes alienating then it is failing its purpose. Why? Do you think the human brain is so small to not use other tools then Launchpad? Linux is about choice and Ubuntu, too. You should start trying to understand what Launchpad is for whom, and what is Launchpad not for the others. Regards, \sh signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Temporary REVU package storage
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:06:09 -0400, Barry deFreese wrote: [...] Additionally, before you start demanding that I do things in the way that's easy for you, remember that I'm a volunteer. On a related note, I really don't think we need to make it easier to submit packages. I have to agree with Scott here for the most part. You have to remember that community development works both ways. It's mighty easy to throw a package up on REVU/LP/wherever and walk away. It's another thing to get it packaged properly, make sure it meets Debian/Ubuntu standards wrt to licensing, packaging, dependencies, etc. As a contributor, though, it's also hard to get your packaging done properly when the review feedback doesn't come until months after the upload. Maybe some of the people who gave up would have become good long- term maintainers if they'd had a good first experience. I know I'm guilty of this too. As an upstream author, I don't have time to look at many of the patches people send me, and I never hear from them again. Back when I was a student (and had more time!) I replied to everything and built up a good developer community. There are over 7,000 bugs filed against packages in Universe and Multiverse. Add to that hundreds of packages that possibly 1 individual thinks should be added to the archive. And this is all to be supported by a few dozen volunteer MOTUs? Many of whom have full-time RL jobs/school/wives/husbands/girlfriends/boyfriends/children, etc. Tell me how we are supposed to manage that? You can't. But, these people still need a way to distribute their programs. If someone makes a package that's only useful to 10 Ubuntu users in the whole world, then the only recommended way to get it to them is to get it into Universe. Yet, the full review process doesn't make sense for such a small audience. How about suggesting that these packagers first create a Zero Install package (http://0install.net) and maintain that on their own web-site for a while? Then MOTU could *invite* authors of desirable packages to get them into Universe, rather than having people submit everything and the reviewers being too polite to turn them away? This is similar to the development model used in the distributed version control systems: let people publish whatever they want on their own site and the 'official' maintainer pulls the bits they want. If you don't have to be accepted by MOTU to distribute packages with security, updates, dependency handling, etc then there's less pressure to get every trivial package in Universe in the first place. -- Dr Thomas Leonard http://rox.sourceforge.net GPG: 9242 9807 C985 3C07 44A6 8B9A AE07 8280 59A5 3CC1 -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Temporary REVU package storage
I have not posted to this list in a while but I also have a little space available. Contact me if you'd like to use it. Turn around time to get the files up may be a day though since I'm at work during the day and will have to do these things from home. - Regards, Richard On 8/16/07, Anthony Yarusso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jordan Mantha wrote: Hi all, It seems like REVU might be down of a little while yet. It also looks like some people might not have online storage space to put packages until the server is back up. I'd like to offer some space for contributors needing it. I don't have a ton of space and have a monthly bandwidth cap so I can't take huge packages, but what I can do I'm happy to offer. Let's say less than 10MB should be ok, depending on how many requests I get. Just email me the source package (.dsc, .diff.gz, and .orig.tar.gz files) and I'll send you back the URL to get at them. Anybody else got some space to give? :-) -Jordan I could also offer some - apache's already up and running, so why not. :P I only have a little bit as of today, so again, small files, although it's very likely that in a few days I'll be swapping out the hard drive for something massive, so I could potentially take larger ones (provided they'll be semi-low-traffic, since I have no idea what my bandwidth cap is on my home connection). - -Tony -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGxPVI6iO+5ByUi/QRAjXIAJ9UeH1AKCGTRL03+XAlfG5r2nrpNgCgngR5 geJkdZSAzQqdaICmrbsG+aE= =RVrp -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu -- Reporter: What is your opinion on the obesity problem? King: I prefer it to the famine problem - Wizard of ID -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Temporary REVU package storage
I'm sure the limits and space are very welcome. Bear in mind that Launchpad has Private Package Archives as of next Wednesday and there is still a beta running at the moment. Perhaps it is time to adopt the tool used for the rest of Ubuntu development. Certainly as a package developer looking for sponsorship it is a damn sight easier to use the Launchpad PPAs and an associated bug than the REVU site. Launchpad even emails you when somebody comments! NeilW -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Temporary REVU package storage
On Friday 17 August 2007 08:35, Neil Wilson wrote: I'm sure the limits and space are very welcome. Bear in mind that Launchpad has Private Package Archives as of next Wednesday and there is still a beta running at the moment. Perhaps it is time to adopt the tool used for the rest of Ubuntu development. Certainly as a package developer looking for sponsorship it is a damn sight easier to use the Launchpad PPAs and an associated bug than the REVU site. Launchpad even emails you when somebody comments! Let's not. There is a mailing list you can get REVU comments from. The less we are entangled with Launchpad in our process, IMO, the more actual work we can get done. LP Is so slow that I find it's usability to be extraordinarily marginal. The only advantage PPAs have is that packages will get built on at least two archs and so it would cut down on reviewing packages that turn out to FTBFS. Can I dget from a PPA? Scott K -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Temporary REVU package storage
(CCing launchpad-users, as there are a couple of LP-related questions; this is about using Launchpad as a REVU replacement) On Fri, 2007-08-17 at 08:56 -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: On Friday 17 August 2007 08:35, Neil Wilson wrote: I'm sure the limits and space are very welcome. Bear in mind that Launchpad has Private Package Archives as of next Wednesday and there is still a beta running at the moment. Perhaps it is time to adopt the tool used for the rest of Ubuntu development. Certainly as a package developer looking for sponsorship it is a damn sight easier to use the Launchpad PPAs and an associated bug than the REVU site. Launchpad even emails you when somebody comments! Let's not. There is a mailing list you can get REVU comments from. OK, I must have missed that; where is it? Last time I thought I had checked, it was spam-ridden. The less we are entangled with Launchpad in our process, IMO, the more actual work we can get done. LP Is so slow that I find it's usability to be extraordinarily marginal. That's odd, because these days I'm finding it quite speedy. The only advantage PPAs have is that packages will get built on at least two archs and so it would cut down on reviewing packages that turn out to FTBFS. That is an advantage, and while it is nice to have everything on Launchpad, I'm not sure that a) you can tie packages in PPAs to branches in Launchpad bzr b) there is the infrastructure for comments that REVU has, although the suggestion about bugs is handy. Again, though, it's not as centralised as REVU was. Can I dget from a PPA? As far as I can see, yes. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Reviewing via Launchpad (was Re: Temporary REVU package storage)
On 8/17/07, Scott Kitterman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 17 August 2007 08:35, Neil Wilson wrote: I'm sure the limits and space are very welcome. Bear in mind that Launchpad has Private Package Archives as of next Wednesday and there is still a beta running at the moment. Perhaps it is time to adopt the tool used for the rest of Ubuntu development. Certainly as a package developer looking for sponsorship it is a damn sight easier to use the Launchpad PPAs and an associated bug than the REVU site. Launchpad even emails you when somebody comments! I really didn't want this to turn into another Launchpad debate. The issue was how to address people's needs *today* while Launchpad is down. We can also be simultaneously discussing the future of our package review system, but I think we should move that to another thread. Let's not. There is a mailing list you can get REVU comments from. And a lot of people don't want to read that mailing list because it's full of spam and comments for packages they aren't interested in. But yes, there is a mailing list. The less we are entangled with Launchpad in our process, IMO, the more actual work we can get done. LP Is so slow that I find it's usability to be extraordinarily marginal. So integrating package review into the tool we use for access control, bugs, specs, and archive maintenance means we get less done? I really fail to see we'll get more work done as a valid argument when the alternative is for us to write our own app to do it. If the argument is that Launchpad doesn't have the features we need then that's something that can be discussed. But let's try to keep things to specifics as much as possible. Launchpad developers are very open to developing the features we need, and I think it would be a shame to not utilize their efforts where we can. I personally find Debian's BTS to be so slow that I find it's usability to be extraordinarily marginal. It's UI is very unintuitive and troublesome for me. However, it's a system that works for many people so I'm not about to call for Debian/Ubuntu developers to stop using it. I much prefer the web interface of LP to the email interface of Debian's BTS. I'm curious (and I'm sure Launchpad admins would be to), what slowness would affect our use of Launchpad to review packages? The only advantage PPAs have is that packages will get built on at least two archs and so it would cut down on reviewing packages that turn out to FTBFS. PPAs allow for storage and bandwidth, which is not always easy to come by for people (especially new contributors). It also allows for easy testing of the binary packages by a wider audience, comes with access restrictions, and is more consistent with the rest of MOTU work. Can I dget from a PPA? Sure, a PPA is an ordinary ubuntu repo. I'm not sold on using solely Launchpad for package review as I haven't seen yet a workflow that looks good enough for us to use. PPAs and bzr have added some interesting elements, but we need a clear way to use them for package reviewing. I think it might be wise to talk to the Launchpad developers, see what they've got coming up and see what they can do for us. The first step in any of this is to define what must have features we need and what workflow works well for use. -Jordan -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Reviewing via Launchpad (was Re: Temporary REVU package storage)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jordan Mantha wrote: I'm not sold on using solely Launchpad for package review as I haven't seen yet a workflow that looks good enough for us to use. PPAs and bzr have added some interesting elements, but we need a clear way to use them for package reviewing. I think it might be wise to talk to the Launchpad developers, see what they've got coming up and see what they can do for us. The first step in any of this is to define what must have features we need and what workflow works well for use. -Jordan An integration with Launchpad among other things could potentially enable a quick push-button ACK process, that depending on implementation could automatically allow such things from people qualified to give them based on group membership, and when a sufficient number is attained automatically upload the package from something like a PPA to the regular build service. I acknowledge that the *right now* need should be addressed first, and numerous things would need to be added to or improved on in LP for this to work well for us, but I do see a very significant potential in using LP for such things. While I'm at it, insert obligatory That said, I would feel much more comfortable expanding our dependence on Launchpad if it were open-source statement here. - -Tony -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGxm7b6iO+5ByUi/QRAoTvAJ43zbol+aiNlHlxb7N83+72sXpTAACdHggX OhrOAzx7hf4/O18z6TkuGiM= =g2QM -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Temporary REVU package storage
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 15:58:35 -0700 Jordan Mantha [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, It seems like REVU might be down of a little while yet. It also looks like some people might not have online storage space to put packages until the server is back up. I'd like to offer some space for contributors needing it. I don't have a ton of space and have a monthly bandwidth cap so I can't take huge packages, but what I can do I'm happy to offer. Let's say less than 10MB should be ok, depending on how many requests I get. Just email me the source package (.dsc, .diff.gz, and .orig.tar.gz files) and I'll send you back the URL to get at them. Anybody else got some space to give? :-) Sure. Same 10MB limit. Scott K -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Temporary REVU package storage
Heya everybody, On Thu, Aug 16, 2007 at 03:58:35PM -0700, Jordan Mantha wrote: Just email me the source package (.dsc, .diff.gz, and .orig.tar.gz files) and I'll send you back the URL to get at them. Anybody else got some space to give? :-) I have some space too. Same process: send me your source package and you'll get an URL to the .dsc. -- Jeremie /* ``Real programmers confuse Christmas and Halloween because DEC 25 = OCT 31.'' -- Unknown */ pgpW0u0TO4YYm.pgp Description: PGP signature -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Temporary REVU package storage
I also have a bunch of space, just shoot me an email with the files and I will send you a link back, no limit on size. Steven Harms On 8/16/07, Scott Kitterman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 15:58:35 -0700 Jordan Mantha [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, It seems like REVU might be down of a little while yet. It also looks like some people might not have online storage space to put packages until the server is back up. I'd like to offer some space for contributors needing it. I don't have a ton of space and have a monthly bandwidth cap so I can't take huge packages, but what I can do I'm happy to offer. Let's say less than 10MB should be ok, depending on how many requests I get. Just email me the source package (.dsc, .diff.gz, and .orig.tar.gz files) and I'll send you back the URL to get at them. Anybody else got some space to give? :-) Sure. Same 10MB limit. Scott K -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Temporary REVU package storage
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hey folks. CCing mentors, just in case people are on that list, but not this list. For those on the mentors list who are not on the MOTU list, a thread with people offering webspace for packages to review has been started. So far, Jordan Mantha, Steven Harms, Jeremie Corbier, and Scott Kitterman have made offers. On Fri, Aug 17, 2007 at 08:58:35AM EST, Jordan Mantha wrote: Just email me the source package (.dsc, .diff.gz, and .orig.tar.gz files) and I'll send you back the URL to get at them. Anybody else got some space to give? :-) I would also like to offer webspace. 10MB limit, send me the files, I will give you an URL, and if you ask nicely, will also review. - -- Luke Yelavich GPG key: 0xD06320CE (http://www.themuso.com/themuso-gpg-key.txt) Email MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGxN+AjVefwtBjIM4RApMnAJ0WUhUy1svenawEdxG7m8BcJUqjvACaAzPD vRC+L0Yn3MudbKE1csIwRFU= =r6w/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Temporary REVU package storage
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jordan Mantha wrote: Hi all, It seems like REVU might be down of a little while yet. It also looks like some people might not have online storage space to put packages until the server is back up. I'd like to offer some space for contributors needing it. I don't have a ton of space and have a monthly bandwidth cap so I can't take huge packages, but what I can do I'm happy to offer. Let's say less than 10MB should be ok, depending on how many requests I get. Just email me the source package (.dsc, .diff.gz, and .orig.tar.gz files) and I'll send you back the URL to get at them. Anybody else got some space to give? :-) -Jordan I could also offer some - apache's already up and running, so why not. :P I only have a little bit as of today, so again, small files, although it's very likely that in a few days I'll be swapping out the hard drive for something massive, so I could potentially take larger ones (provided they'll be semi-low-traffic, since I have no idea what my bandwidth cap is on my home connection). - -Tony -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGxPVI6iO+5ByUi/QRAjXIAJ9UeH1AKCGTRL03+XAlfG5r2nrpNgCgngR5 geJkdZSAzQqdaICmrbsG+aE= =RVrp -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
