Re: [ubuntu-uk] Google Funds Work for Photoshop on Linux

[Gavin Ford]

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 06:59:04PM +, Jai Harrison wrote:
> I can understand why people who have never used Photoshop might not
> find the GIMP complicated to use - especially if they've spent time
> learning to use it but it presents a problem to people who are used to
> image tool standards (such as those used in Photoshop and Paintshop).
> The GIMP manages to be completely different in my eyes (and I'm sure
> everyone else who complains about the GIMP).

I used to use Photoshop on a Mac at Uni many years ago, also I used PSP at home
in the Windows 3.1 days before I switched to Linux.


> GNU/Linux programs and Desktop Environments inherit a lot of standards
> from Windows and Mac OSes. AbiWord, Microsoft Word and Open Office
> Writer all follow similar user interface standards and, as a result,
> people can easily use one after having originally learnt another. The
> same applies for Evolution, Thunderbird and Microsoft Outlook. In
> fact, the same applies for most photo editing and image manipulation
> programs too - GIMP is the exception.

Maybe it's because it's been such a long time since I used Photoshop, but what
is so different about the GIMP?

For me it was a complete replacement in a very short time.  I've never looked
back or missed anything from the closed source apps.

  -Gav

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Google Funds Work for Photoshop on Linux

[Jai Harrison]

On 2/22/08, Sean Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ps. Jai's Windows-using friends ought to be targeted by the Ubuntu
> evangelists... think of all the time they'd have on their hands if they were
> no longer capable of doing all his photo/image manipulation for him, lol!!
> As good a reason to change OS as any, methinks... ;-)
>

I've tried showing them the light before but they continue to refuse
to so much as try Pidgin, let alone a new operating system. Their
general approach to free alternatives is that the software they use
already meets their requirements so they've no reason (that matters to
them) to change.

I can understand why people who have never used Photoshop might not
find the GIMP complicated to use - especially if they've spent time
learning to use it but it presents a problem to people who are used to
image tool standards (such as those used in Photoshop and Paintshop).
The GIMP manages to be completely different in my eyes (and I'm sure
everyone else who complains about the GIMP).

GNU/Linux programs and Desktop Environments inherit a lot of standards
from Windows and Mac OSes. AbiWord, Microsoft Word and Open Office
Writer all follow similar user interface standards and, as a result,
people can easily use one after having originally learnt another. The
same applies for Evolution, Thunderbird and Microsoft Outlook. In
fact, the same applies for most photo editing and image manipulation
programs too - GIMP is the exception.

As GIMP is, apparently, *THE* image editing tool for Linux and the
only choice people are presented with when it comes to image editing
it is a SERIOUS problem that it does everything so differently. You
may consider my views harsh but, unless anyone else can explain why
everyone that finds GIMP impossible to use is complaining, then it's
the truth.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Google Funds Work for Photoshop on Linux

[Kris Douglas]

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 8:41 AM, Sean Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> > Eh? There is a Linux version too...
>
> I am aware of this, but the website says...
>
> "GIMPshop modifies the menu structure to closely match Photoshop's, adjusts
> the program's terminology to match Adobe's, and, in the Windows version,
> uses a plugin called 'Deweirdifier' to combine the application's numerous
> windows in a similar manner to the MDI system used by most Windows graphics
> packages."
>
> http://gimpshop.com
>
> ..."and, in the Windows version..." appears to imply that the Linux version
> doesn't have the windows combined, which appeared to be on of Jai's main
> gripes with GIMP...
>
> I do not know for sure because I haven't ever installed the thing.  Perhaps
> somebody who has will be able to clarify the situation.
>
> Sean
>
> ps. Jai's Windows-using friends ought to be targeted by the Ubuntu
> evangelists... think of all the time they'd have on their hands if they were
> no longer capable of doing all his photo/image manipulation for him, lol!!
> As good a reason to change OS as any, methinks... ;-)
>

I see..



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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Google Funds Work for Photoshop on Linux

[Sean Miller]

> Eh? There is a Linux version too...


I am aware of this, but the website says...

"GIMPshop modifies the menu structure to closely match Photoshop's, adjusts
the program's terminology to match Adobe's, and, in the
Windowsversion, uses a
plugin called 'Deweirdifier' to combine the application's
numerous windows in a similar manner to the
MDIsystem
used by most Windows graphics packages."

http://gimpshop.com

..."and, in the Windows version..." appears to imply that the Linux version
doesn't have the windows combined, which appeared to be on of Jai's main
gripes with GIMP...

I do not know for sure because I haven't ever installed the thing.  Perhaps
somebody who has will be able to clarify the situation.

Sean

ps. Jai's Windows-using friends ought to be targeted by the Ubuntu
evangelists... think of all the time they'd have on their hands if they were
no longer capable of doing all his photo/image manipulation for him, lol!!
As good a reason to change OS as any, methinks... ;-)
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Google Funds Work for Photoshop on Linux

[Kris Douglas]

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 4:59 AM, Sean Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>
> There is a customised version of GIMP called "Gimpshop" which, I am told,
> brings the product much closer to the Photoshop look/feel... the website
> implies that in terms of the multiple windows vs. single windows debate that
> is resolved for only Windows users (deweirdify or something), so it might be
> worth Jai considering running Gimpshop under wine, perhaps?
>

Eh? There is a Linux version too...
 DEB package:
http://rapidshare.com/files/86270575/gimpshop_2.2.11-1_i386.deb
 SRC: http://rapidshare.com/files/86270572/gimp-2.2.8.tar.bz2


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Google Funds Work for Photoshop on Linux

[Kris Douglas]

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 4:59 AM, Sean Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 2/22/08, Paul Tansom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > ** Jai Harrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2008-02-20 23:08]:
> >
> > > I disagree. The GIMP has a difficult user interface. Photoshop was
> > > extremely easy to learn to use where as I've never managed to get
> > > anywhere with GIMP. The way it is now whenever I need a photo edited
> > > or an image created/modified I ask a Windows/Photoshop user to do the
> > > task for me - that's definitely not the intended result.
> > ** end quote [Jai Harrison]
> >
> > Personally I've always been quite happy with GIMP. When I first started
> > using it there was a small culture shock from not having a menu bar
> > across the top, but it took a matter of minutes to get used to that. I'm
> > no power user though.
>
>
> I think Jai is being extremely harsh... there are positives and negatives
> about the way that GIMP presents itself, but on aggregate (for me at least)
> it makes very little difference... if anything, I'd say that having used it
> for several years now I probably prefer the GIMP presentation to that of,
> say, Photoshop as it empowers me to put each window/image/toolbox etc. where
> I want it rather than where the software says I must.
>
>
> > The combination of price tag and an unwillingness to use pirated
> > software mean I've never even seen Photoshop, and it doesn't even figure
> > in my top 100 apps I'd like to see ported to Linux :) I've no idea how
> > representative Elements is of the Photoshop UI (likely not at all), but
> > I'm not a big fan of that from using it on my parents PC.
>
>
> There is a customised version of GIMP called "Gimpshop" which, I am told,
> brings the product much closer to the Photoshop look/feel... the website
> implies that in terms of the multiple windows vs. single windows debate that
> is resolved for only Windows users (deweirdify or something), so it might be
> worth Jai considering running Gimpshop under wine, perhaps?
>
>
>
> > Perhaps I'm just atypical when it comes to software. So many people
> > consider Dreamweaver the ultimate web development package, but from what
> > little I've seen of it I'd actively avoid it, and I've not been
> > enthusiastic about what little experience I've had of Contribute.
>
>
> I was trying to help somebody design a website on Wednesday, who was using
> Dreamweaver, and I must admit it brought back nightmares and reinforced my
> view that the best "WYSIWYG" for web development is a plain tried and tested
> text editor (vi, emacs or whatever) used in combinatin with a couple of open
> browsers... ;-)
>
> Sean
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>
>

Talking about said image software above, its like a distro, everyone
likes a different flavour... I like them both for doing different
things, depends What, When, Where really...

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Google Funds Work for Photoshop on Linux

[Sean Miller]

On 2/22/08, Paul Tansom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> ** Jai Harrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2008-02-20 23:08]:
> > I disagree. The GIMP has a difficult user interface. Photoshop was
> > extremely easy to learn to use where as I've never managed to get
> > anywhere with GIMP. The way it is now whenever I need a photo edited
> > or an image created/modified I ask a Windows/Photoshop user to do the
> > task for me - that's definitely not the intended result.
> ** end quote [Jai Harrison]
>
> Personally I've always been quite happy with GIMP. When I first started
> using it there was a small culture shock from not having a menu bar
> across the top, but it took a matter of minutes to get used to that. I'm
> no power user though.


I think Jai is being extremely harsh... there are positives and negatives
about the way that GIMP presents itself, but on aggregate (for me at least)
it makes very little difference... if anything, I'd say that having used it
for several years now I probably prefer the GIMP presentation to that of,
say, Photoshop as it empowers me to put each window/image/toolbox etc. where
I want it rather than where the software says I must.


> The combination of price tag and an unwillingness to use pirated
> software mean I've never even seen Photoshop, and it doesn't even figure
> in my top 100 apps I'd like to see ported to Linux :) I've no idea how
> representative Elements is of the Photoshop UI (likely not at all), but
> I'm not a big fan of that from using it on my parents PC.


There is a customised version of GIMP called "Gimpshop" which, I am told,
brings the product much closer to the Photoshop look/feel... the website
implies that in terms of the multiple windows vs. single windows debate that
is resolved for only Windows users (deweirdify or something), so it might be
worth Jai considering running Gimpshop under wine, perhaps?



> Perhaps I'm just atypical when it comes to software. So many people
> consider Dreamweaver the ultimate web development package, but from what
> little I've seen of it I'd actively avoid it, and I've not been
> enthusiastic about what little experience I've had of Contribute.


I was trying to help somebody design a website on Wednesday, who was using
Dreamweaver, and I must admit it brought back nightmares and reinforced my
view that the best "WYSIWYG" for web development is a plain tried and tested
text editor (vi, emacs or whatever) used in combinatin with a couple of open
browsers... ;-)

Sean
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Google Funds Work for Photoshop on Linux

[Paul Tansom]

** Jai Harrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2008-02-20 23:08]:
> On 2/20/08, Matt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Jai Harrison wrote:
> >  > Is this is what the effects of a difficult user interface in the GIMP 
> > are?
> >
> > Different is not the same as difficult, it is just a different way of
> >  working. It does not take a long time to get used to really, the same as
> >  it take time to learn how to use Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro.
> 
> I disagree. The GIMP has a difficult user interface. Photoshop was
> extremely easy to learn to use where as I've never managed to get
> anywhere with GIMP. The way it is now whenever I need a photo edited
> or an image created/modified I ask a Windows/Photoshop user to do the
> task for me - that's definitely not the intended result.
** end quote [Jai Harrison]

Personally I've always been quite happy with GIMP. When I first started
using it there was a small culture shock from not having a menu bar
across the top, but it took a matter of minutes to get used to that. I'm
no power user though.

The combination of price tag and an unwillingness to use pirated
software mean I've never even seen Photoshop, and it doesn't even figure
in my top 100 apps I'd like to see ported to Linux :) I've no idea how
representative Elements is of the Photoshop UI (likely not at all), but
I'm not a big fan of that from using it on my parents PC.

Perhaps I'm just atypical when it comes to software. So many people
consider Dreamweaver the ultimate web development package, but from what
little I've seen of it I'd actively avoid it, and I've not been
enthusiastic about what little experience I've had of Contribute.

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==
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Google Funds Work for Photoshop on Linux

[Dave Morley]

On Wed, 2008-02-20 at 23:49 +, Chris Rowson wrote:
> >  > By design, WINE is complete when it can replicate and translate all of 
> > windows
> >  > programming system signals. By doing this, google will make the entire 
> > WINE
> >  > base a bit more stable, rather than less, which means this will probably 
> > help
> >  > many more programs become more compatible than just Photoshop.
> >
> >  Very true, but Windows is a moving target.  WINE needs constant work to 
> > follow
> >  that so I appreciate any help they get.
> >
> >  However the more closed source applications that can be replaced with full
> >  featured and complete open source applications the better for everyone.
> >
> >  In an ideal world, we wouldn't need WINE at all.  But the reality is many 
> > people
> >  do.
> >
> >
> >   -Gav
> 
> I think that when any business is willing to put money into making
> Linux more compatible with mainstream software like photoshop then we
> can only say thanks and give them our support.
> 
> Chris
> 
I think the reason why this has happened is because on all the "what
windows app would you like port to linux" questionnaires PhotoShop is
always near the top. 
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> 


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Google Funds Work for Photoshop on Linux

[Chris Rowson]

>  > By design, WINE is complete when it can replicate and translate all of 
> windows
>  > programming system signals. By doing this, google will make the entire WINE
>  > base a bit more stable, rather than less, which means this will probably 
> help
>  > many more programs become more compatible than just Photoshop.
>
>  Very true, but Windows is a moving target.  WINE needs constant work to 
> follow
>  that so I appreciate any help they get.
>
>  However the more closed source applications that can be replaced with full
>  featured and complete open source applications the better for everyone.
>
>  In an ideal world, we wouldn't need WINE at all.  But the reality is many 
> people
>  do.
>
>
>   -Gav

I think that when any business is willing to put money into making
Linux more compatible with mainstream software like photoshop then we
can only say thanks and give them our support.

Chris

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Google Funds Work for Photoshop on Linux

[Gavin Ford]

On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 10:54:01PM +, Johnathon Tinsley wrote:
> By design, WINE is complete when it can replicate and translate all of windows
> programming system signals. By doing this, google will make the entire WINE 
> base a bit more stable, rather than less, which means this will probably help 
> many more programs become more compatible than just Photoshop.

Very true, but Windows is a moving target.  WINE needs constant work to follow
that so I appreciate any help they get.

However the more closed source applications that can be replaced with full 
featured and complete open source applications the better for everyone.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't need WINE at all.  But the reality is many people
do.

  -Gav

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Google Funds Work for Photoshop on Linux

[Jai Harrison]

On 2/20/08, Matt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jai Harrison wrote:
>  > Is this is what the effects of a difficult user interface in the GIMP are?
>
> Different is not the same as difficult, it is just a different way of
>  working. It does not take a long time to get used to really, the same as
>  it take time to learn how to use Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro.
>

I disagree. The GIMP has a difficult user interface. Photoshop was
extremely easy to learn to use where as I've never managed to get
anywhere with GIMP. The way it is now whenever I need a photo edited
or an image created/modified I ask a Windows/Photoshop user to do the
task for me - that's definitely not the intended result.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Google Funds Work for Photoshop on Linux

[Johnathon Tinsley]

- "Gavin Ford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 09:51:24PM +, Jai Harrison wrote:
> > Is this is what the effects of a difficult user interface in the
> GIMP are?
> 
> I really like the interface on The GIMP and it does everything I need,
> but there
> are some features that photographers working in print need that the
> GIMP doesn't
> yet have.
> 
> Why google are spending money on WINE and Photoshop rather than adding
> those 
> features to GIMP I don't know.
> 
> It would seem to me that adding these features to GIMP would provide
> them to 
> everyone for free forever, while propping up WINE+Photoshop is only
> good for 
> owners of the current version of Photoshop.
> 


By design, WINE is complete when it can replicate and translate all of windows 
programming system signals. By doing this, google will make the entire WINE 
base a bit more stable, rather than less, which means this will probably help 
many more programs become more compatible than just Photoshop.


Johnathon

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Google Funds Work for Photoshop on Linux

[Gavin Ford]

On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 09:51:24PM +, Jai Harrison wrote:
> Is this is what the effects of a difficult user interface in the GIMP are?

I really like the interface on The GIMP and it does everything I need, but there
are some features that photographers working in print need that the GIMP doesn't
yet have.

Why google are spending money on WINE and Photoshop rather than adding those 
features to GIMP I don't know.

It would seem to me that adding these features to GIMP would provide them to 
everyone for free forever, while propping up WINE+Photoshop is only good for 
owners of the current version of Photoshop.

  -Gav

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Google Funds Work for Photoshop on Linux

[Matt]

Jai Harrison wrote:
> Is this is what the effects of a difficult user interface in the GIMP are?
>
>   

Different is not the same as difficult, it is just a different way of 
working. It does not take a long time to get used to really, the same as 
it take time to learn how to use Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Google Funds Work for Photoshop on Linux

[Jai Harrison]

Is this is what the effects of a difficult user interface in the GIMP are?

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