Re: [IronPython] [Kamaelia-list] Kamaelia and IronPython (was: Hosting IronPython 2.X in .NET app)

[M. David Peterson]

On 7/20/07, Sylvain Hellegouarch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



I must admit though, after so many years in OSS, this is the first time
I hear this sentence.



How many OSS projects and/or the projects corporate sponsor generate 50 some
odd billion a year in revenue and have at any given time 30-60 some odd
billion in the bank?  Couple this with the fact that for all intents and
purposes MSFT has only been in the open source "business" for between 2-3
years (and its only the last year that they have really pushed the OSS power
play button) and it makes sense as to why this is the first time you have
heard this sentence.

Mind you this is not as if Microsoft was the only

one doing so, I bet all the big companies do so. They have to.



Even if they were the only ones, how many big companies do you know that
generate 50+/-billion... and have in the bank 30-60+/-billion...?  The game
changes when you have resources that rival the GNP of a small to medium
sized nation.  As much as I'm sure we all, to some extent, wish this wasn't
the case, it really *IS* about the money.  Maybe not in every respect, but
again, when you're a target as big as MSFT, the game changes.  Maybe its
just MSFT being ultra sensitive, but again, when that much cash has to be
constantly protected from a million different directions, attempting to
convince the lawyers that "yeah, but OSS communities are different than the
rest of the world" isn't going to be an easy task, especially when OSS
luminaries such as Eric Raymond are making statements such as,


I expect to be quite wealthy once the dust from the Linux IPOs has settled

Doing It For The 
Cause,
December 12th, 1999



Like I said, it really is about the money.


From a developer point of view though, it's a big "WTF?" :D



Thus my comment "who want's to deal with lawyers *EVER*".  Generally
speaking, its not in our genetic makeup to think of the world in such a
way.  Fortunately there *ARE* lawyers (even if I don't want to deal with
them) who take interest in taking care of things like this for us so we can
spend more of our time worrying about writing code, and less of our time
dealing with the legalities of the trade.

Thanks Dino for the honesty nonetheless.


Ditto.

--
/M:D

M. David Peterson
http://mdavid.name | http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2354 |
http://dev.aol.com/blog/3155
___
users mailing list
users@lists.ironpython.com
http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com

Re: [IronPython] [Kamaelia-list] Kamaelia and IronPython (was: Hosting IronPython 2.X in .NET app)

[Sylvain Hellegouarch]

M. David Peterson a écrit :
> On 7/20/07, *Michael Sparks* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>
> In the interests of you having a quiet life (who wants to be
> dealing with
> lawyers when writing code? :-)...
>
>
> Who wants to deal with lawyers *EVER*! ;-)

I must admit though, after so many years in OSS, this is the first time 
I hear this sentence. Mind you this is not as if Microsoft was the only 
one doing so, I bet all the big companies do so. They have to.

 From a developer point of view though, it's a big "WTF?" :D

Thanks Dino for the honesty nonetheless.

- Sylvain
___
users mailing list
users@lists.ironpython.com
http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com

Re: [IronPython] [Kamaelia-list] Kamaelia and IronPython (was: Hosting IronPython 2.X in .NET app)

[M. David Peterson]

On 7/20/07, Michael Sparks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Hi,


In the interests of you having a quiet life (who wants to be dealing with
lawyers when writing code? :-)...



Who wants to deal with lawyers *EVER*! ;-)

Example that as I understand should trigger your bug: (also attached)


Nice! :D  Will get this added to my own personal test suite as well.
Thanks, Michael!

--
/M:D

M. David Peterson
http://mdavid.name | http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2354 |
http://dev.aol.com/blog/3155
___
users mailing list
users@lists.ironpython.com
http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com

Re: [IronPython] [Kamaelia-list] Kamaelia and IronPython (was: Hosting IronPython 2.X in .NET app)

[M. David Peterson]

On 7/20/07, Dino Viehland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 Generally what's best for us is to get small test cases which demonstrate
particular problems.  Great examples of this are every single one of Seo's
bug reports.



Seo is without a doubt a shining example of how to effectively contribute to
OSS software!

We have occasionally picked up external Python libraries and their

associated test suites (the best example of this I can think of is nzmath).
Unfortunately when we do that we need to talk to lawyers, have them approve
the license, and then we keep those files in a separate source repository
from our primary one.



I figured as much.  An ugly process, but when you're a company as big as
MSFT its one of those things that just has to be this way.  To many people
on the sidelines looking for a way to stick their fingers into the MSFT pie
(or simply cause as much Baby's Mama Drama as they possibly can ;-)

 The small individual test cases we can integrate back into our own test

suite, add our own versions of the tests for more coverage, etc…  and that's
much more flexible.



Cool.  That's helpful to know.

If they do have a test suite, or if you're interested in contributing one, I

could ping the lawyers, but Kamaelia's license will at least make that an
interesting talk for us J.


:D  An interesting comment from Michael Sparks regarding their trilicense
scheme[1],

My *personal* preference is for the BSD license, but the MPL/GPL/LGPL gives

maximum protections for users and interoperability with other libraries,
whilst protecting the base code from being closed.



Also, some interesting food for the argument for open systems fodder[2],

At present, proprietary systems fail to provide the BBC any way of

mitigating costs. Open systems based on open standards often replace the
early adopted proprietary systems, simply in order to scale. This has been
likened to proprietary medicines being replaced by generic drugs over time.



Maybe its just me, but something tells me that as we move forward into a
world powered by "Software as a Service" and decentralized communications,
paying attention to the BBC+Kamaelia is going to become as important as
paying attention to what MSFT was doing in the 90's and what Google is doing
in the 00's.  Of course, in this regard gaining support for Kamaelia in
IronPython 2.0 (.NET+WCF+DLR+Silverlight+Kamaelia == YES PLEASE! :) makes
things that much more sweet in regards to being enabled to do some pretty
amazing things in the land of audio/video/p2p communications!

[1]
http://www.oreillynet.com/xml/blog/2006/10/bbcoss_on_kamaelia_concurrency.html#comment-106266
[2] http://kamaelia.sourceforge.net/Challenges/?tab=6

--
/M:D

M. David Peterson
http://mdavid.name | http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2354 |
http://dev.aol.com/blog/3155
___
users mailing list
users@lists.ironpython.com
http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com

Re: [IronPython] [Kamaelia-list] Kamaelia and IronPython (was: Hosting IronPython 2.X in .NET app)

[Dino Viehland]

Generally what’s best for us is to get small test cases which demonstrate 
particular problems.  Great examples of this are every single one of Seo’s bug 
reports.

We have occasionally picked up external Python libraries and their associated 
test suites (the best example of this I can think of is nzmath).  Unfortunately 
when we do that we need to talk to lawyers, have them approve the license, and 
then we keep those files in a separate source repository from our primary one.  
The small individual test cases we can integrate back into our own test suite, 
add our own versions of the tests for more coverage, etc…  and that’s much more 
flexible.

If they do have a test suite, or if you’re interested in contributing one, I 
could ping the lawyers, but Kamaelia’s license will at least make that an 
interesting talk for us ☺.

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of M. David Peterson
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 8:23 PM
To: Discussion of IronPython
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Peter Fisk; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [IronPython] [Kamaelia-list] Kamaelia and IronPython (was: Hosting 
IronPython 2.X in .NET app)

On 7/18/07, Dino Viehland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:

Awesome, this will have to be fixed soon.  I don't know that any of our PMs are 
tracking the list,
And if they were, I would question why in the hell that particular PM is 
getting in the way of progress! ;-)

it's more like "time to fix bugs, let's look at the list!" ☺.
Which makes the 16 votes this bug currently has that much more exciting! :D

To make this even better we've been running into some of our own issues w/ this 
which provide us w/ additional motivation to fix this.
Nice!

I'm betting it won't make it into the next release (Alpha 3?), but hopefully 
the release after that.
All I hope for is that it gets fixed in time for the first beta such that it 
can be properly and thoroughly tested before the final release.  Thanks for all 
of your efforts with this!

One thing: Would it be helpful if myself or someone else were to pull together 
a test suite composed of Axon/Kamaelia and all non-C API-based Kamaelia 
components?  Not sure if providing external test suites is considered kosher, 
but if yes and it would be helpful, I'd be happy to put forth the effort.

Thanks everyone who voted for this.
I second the thanks.  Thanks everyone! :D

--
/M:D

M. David Peterson
http://mdavid.name | http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2354 | 
http://dev.aol.com/blog/3155
___
users mailing list
users@lists.ironpython.com
http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com

Re: [IronPython] [Kamaelia-list] Kamaelia and IronPython (was: Hosting IronPython 2.X in .NET app)

[M. David Peterson]

On 7/18/07, Dino Viehland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 Awesome, this will have to be fixed soon.  I don't know that any of our
PMs are tracking the list,


And if they were, I would question why in the hell that particular PM is
getting in the way of progress! ;-)


it's more like "time to fix bugs, let's look at the list!" J.


Which makes the 16 votes this bug currently has that much more exciting! :D


To make this even better we've been running into some of our own issues w/
this which provide us w/ additional motivation to fix this.


Nice!


I'm betting it won't make it into the next release (Alpha 3?), but
hopefully the release after that.


All I hope for is that it gets fixed in time for the first beta such that it
can be properly and thoroughly tested before the final release.  Thanks for
all of your efforts with this!

One thing: Would it be helpful if myself or someone else were to pull
together a test suite composed of Axon/Kamaelia and all non-C API-based
Kamaelia components?  Not sure if providing external test suites is
considered kosher, but if yes and it would be helpful, I'd be happy to put
forth the effort.


Thanks everyone who voted for this.


I second the thanks.  Thanks everyone! :D

--
/M:D

M. David Peterson
http://mdavid.name | http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2354 |
http://dev.aol.com/blog/3155
___
users mailing list
users@lists.ironpython.com
http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com

Re: [IronPython] [Kamaelia-list] Kamaelia and IronPython (was: Hosting IronPython 2.X in .NET app)

[Dino Viehland]

Awesome, this will have to be fixed soon.  I don’t know that any of our PMs are 
tracking the list, it’s more like “time to fix bugs, let’s look at the list!” ☺.

To make this even better we’ve been running into some of our own issues w/ this 
which provide us w/ additional motivation to fix this.  I’m betting it won’t 
make it into the next release (Alpha 3?), but hopefully the release after that.

Thanks everyone who voted for this.

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of M. David Peterson
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 6:09 AM
To: Discussion of IronPython
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Peter Fisk; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [IronPython] [Kamaelia-list] Kamaelia and IronPython (was: Hosting 
IronPython 2.X in .NET app)

On 7/18/07, M. David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> 
wrote:
On 7/17/07, M. David Peterson < [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]<https://mail.google.com/mail?view=cm&tf=0&[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:

It now has 2 :D

make that *10*, second only to importing pre-compiled modules on the "request" 
list. http://www.codeplex.com/IronPython/WorkItem/AdvancedList.aspx

Did I say 10? I meant 
*12*!<http://www.cbs.com/latenight/lateshow/wahoo/index/php/20050926.phtml>  5 
more votes and " Implement import of pre-compiled 
modules<http://www.codeplex.com/IronPython/WorkItem/View.aspx?WorkItemId=358>" 
gets its a$$ kicked to the curb!  (wait, thats a good thing, right? ;-)

Well, regardless: Come on folks!  5 more votes and the only thing standing 
between us and support for nested yield statements is, umm, the time between 
now + the time that some PM at MSFT asks for a status report on the most active 
bugs + the 30 seconds before the report is delivered to quickly fix the top 
three bugs + the next release that follows the report being delivered to the 
now satisfied MSFT PM that is now convinced "this community thing is *REALLY* 
working!"

That shouldn't be very long, should it? ;-)

(Dear IronPython team: I kid, I kid.  I worked on campus for enough years to 
understand how hard you guys work and how much is expected of you.  Keep up the 
great work!  And smile.  A lot! :D)

--
/M:D

M. David Peterson
http://mdavid.name | http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2354 | 
http://dev.aol.com/blog/3155
___
users mailing list
users@lists.ironpython.com
http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com

Re: [IronPython] [Kamaelia-list] Kamaelia and IronPython (was: Hosting IronPython 2.X in .NET app)

[M. David Peterson]

On 7/18/07, M. David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 7/17/07, M. David Peterson <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
>
> It now has 2 :D
>

make that *10*, second only to importing pre-compiled modules on the
"request" list.
http://www.codeplex.com/IronPython/WorkItem/AdvancedList.aspx



Did I say 10? I meant
*12*!
5 more votes and "Implement import of pre-compiled
modules"
gets its a$$ kicked to the curb!  (wait, thats a good thing, right? ;-)

Well, regardless: Come on folks!  5 more votes and the only thing standing
between us and support for nested yield statements is, umm, the time between
now + the time that some PM at MSFT asks for a status report on the most
active bugs + the 30 seconds before the report is delivered to quickly fix
the top three bugs + the next release that follows the report being
delivered to the now satisfied MSFT PM that is now convinced "this community
thing is *REALLY* working!"

That shouldn't be very long, should it? ;-)

(Dear IronPython team: I kid, I kid.  I worked on campus for enough years to
understand how hard you guys work and how much is expected of you.  Keep up
the great work!  And smile.  A lot! :D)

--
/M:D

M. David Peterson
http://mdavid.name | http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2354 |
http://dev.aol.com/blog/3155
___
users mailing list
users@lists.ironpython.com
http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com

Re: [IronPython] [Kamaelia-list] Kamaelia and IronPython (was: Hosting IronPython 2.X in .NET app)

[M. David Peterson]

On 7/17/07, M. David Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



It now has 2 :D



make that *10*, second only to importing pre-compiled modules on the
"request" list.
http://www.codeplex.com/IronPython/WorkItem/AdvancedList.aspx



What's it gonna take to get you to click the above link, if necessary sign
into Codeplex, and then click the "Vote" button? ;-) :D



That was cheaper than I thought. :)  Thanks, everyone! :D

--
/M:D

M. David Peterson
http://mdavid.name | http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2354 |
http://dev.aol.com/blog/3155
___
users mailing list
users@lists.ironpython.com
http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com

Re: [IronPython] [Kamaelia-list] Kamaelia and IronPython (was: Hosting IronPython 2.X in .NET app)

[M. David Peterson]

On 7/17/07, Dino Viehland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  The bug for this (3410,
http://www.codeplex.com/IronPython/WorkItem/View.aspx?WorkItemId=3410)
currently only has 1 vote so if we get votes for it then it will rise to the
top of our priorities.


It now has 2 :D

Everyone else in the community: *PLEASE* oh *PLEASE* take a second and vote
for this bug.  The very thought of being able to gain access to
Axon/Kamaelia via IronPython is enough for me to turn to bribery if the need
arises, so lets just cut to the chase,

What's it gonna take to get you to click the above link, if necessary sign
into Codeplex, and then click the "Vote" button? ;-) :D

--
/M:D

M. David Peterson
http://mdavid.name | http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2354 |
http://dev.aol.com/blog/3155
___
users mailing list
users@lists.ironpython.com
http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com

Re: [IronPython] [Kamaelia-list] Kamaelia and IronPython (was: Hosting IronPython 2.X in .NET app)

[Dino Viehland]

I know both Martin and I have wanted to fix this bug in the past and just 
haven’t gotten the time to do it yet and haven’t seen anyone w/ a pressing need 
for it.

The bug for this (3410, 
http://www.codeplex.com/IronPython/WorkItem/View.aspx?WorkItemId=3410) 
currently only has 1 vote so if we get votes for it then it will rise to the 
top of our priorities.

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of M. David Peterson
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 12:01 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Discussion of IronPython; Peter Fisk
Subject: Re: [IronPython] [Kamaelia-list] Kamaelia and IronPython (was: Hosting 
IronPython 2.X in .NET app)

On 7/11/07, Michael Sparks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
On Wednesday 11 July 2007 10:25, M. David Peterson wrote:
> > > File HTTPClient, line unknown, in Initialize
> > > SyntaxError: yield in more than one try blocks

This is a bug in the IronPython implementation of python's generators - this
has been legal in python since python 2.2.2. I'm guessing it's a known bug by
the sounds of things.

Yep, I believe so.

IronPython team: Are there any known concerns that might keep this from making 
into the final IP2.0 release?

The reason incidentally we focus on compatibility with python 2.2.2 is because
that also happens to be the version of python ported to Nokia mobile phones,
and we'd like to retain the option of running Kamaelia on such platforms.
(Having done so in the past and found we can do some fun things as a
result! :)

Which leads me to wonder how much of an impact Silverlight/DLR in the mobile 
device space might have?  The notion of decentralized concurrent inbox/outbox 
operations taking place over, for example, a Kamaelia-based mesh network sounds 
WAY TOO COOL not to get excited about.

Michael: FYI > The Dynamic Language Runtime is what IronPython 2.0 as well as 
IronRuby, a new JScript.NET implementation, as well as a new language referred 
to as Dynamic VB are built upon.  If not mistaken, once Kamaelia can be run 
successfully on IronPython 2.0, then all of Kamaelia would be accessible via 
this same base of languages as well as other DLR-based projects such as Vista 
Smalltalk/DLR

The nice thing about the above code is that it looks pretty linear, but has
the cross platform scalabilty benefits of state machine approach. (which is
*why* we use generators rather than threads)

Nice!  I wasn't aware of this until now, but it makes complete sense!

--
/M:D

M. David Peterson
http://mdavid.name | http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2354 | 
http://dev.aol.com/blog/3155
___
users mailing list
users@lists.ironpython.com
http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com

Re: [IronPython] [Kamaelia-list] Kamaelia and IronPython (was: Hosting IronPython 2.X in .NET app)

[M. David Peterson]

On 7/11/07, Michael Sparks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Wednesday 11 July 2007 10:25, M. David Peterson wrote:
> > > File HTTPClient, line unknown, in Initialize
> > > SyntaxError: yield in more than one try blocks

This is a bug in the IronPython implementation of python's generators -
this
has been legal in python since python 2.2.2. I'm guessing it's a known bug
by
the sounds of things.



Yep, I believe so.

IronPython team: Are there any known concerns that might keep this from
making into the final IP2.0 release?

The reason incidentally we focus on compatibility with python 2.2.2 is

because
that also happens to be the version of python ported to Nokia mobile
phones,
and we'd like to retain the option of running Kamaelia on such platforms.
(Having done so in the past and found we can do some fun things as a
result! :)



Which leads me to wonder how much of an impact Silverlight/DLR in the mobile
device space might have?  The notion of decentralized concurrent
inbox/outbox operations taking place over, for example, a Kamaelia-based
mesh network sounds WAY TOO COOL not to get excited about.

Michael: FYI > The Dynamic Language Runtime is what IronPython 2.0 as well
as IronRuby, a new JScript.NET implementation, as well as a new language
referred to as Dynamic VB are built upon.  If not mistaken, once Kamaelia
can be run successfully on IronPython 2.0, then all of Kamaelia would be
accessible via this same base of languages as well as other DLR-based
projects such as Vista Smalltalk/DLR

The nice thing about the above code is that it looks pretty linear, but has

the cross platform scalabilty benefits of state machine approach. (which
is
*why* we use generators rather than threads)



Nice!  I wasn't aware of this until now, but it makes complete sense!

--
/M:D

M. David Peterson
http://mdavid.name | http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2354 |
http://dev.aol.com/blog/3155
___
users mailing list
users@lists.ironpython.com
http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com