RE: [Vserver] solaris containers/zones
On Sat, 25 Jun 2005, Ehab Heikal wrote: Xen allows different Operating systems to run on the same server, now only linux and I think freebsd. Vserver only allows linux. The uppoint of vserver is that the kernel is shared wich means lower memory footprint. I think unification also reduces needed memory. I'd say the key advantage of vserver is the ability to access what's inside the vserver from the host. With xen you cannot see what's inside a virtual machine from the host, nor can you access its files, which makes it very difficult to administer efficiently. Grisha ___ Vserver mailing list Vserver@list.linux-vserver.org http://list.linux-vserver.org/mailman/listinfo/vserver
RE: [Vserver] solaris containers/zones
What we need here is PR too. If someone here knows how to create press releases and distribute them it would be good for the adoption of the project. But there are fundamental differences between Xen and vserver. Xen allows different Operating systems to run on the same server, now only linux and I think freebsd. Vserver only allows linux. The uppoint of vserver is that the kernel is shared wich means lower memory footprint. I think unification also reduces needed memory. I have not been here for a long time, have you guys implemented virtual ethernet devices per vserver like freevps? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gregory (Grisha) Trubetskoy Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 4:50 AM To: vserver@list.linux-vserver.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Vserver] solaris containers/zones On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Mike Tierney wrote: > As much as I like Vservers (we use them on 2 of our Production > servers!!) it looks like the Xen project (open source virtual machine > software) IS getting LOTS of media coverage and attention/resources from > vendors (Novell, IBM, Sun, HP, Redhat, etc). This is called PR. If you read this, you'll have a better idea of what's going on here: http://www.pycon.org/data/95/pycon-20050325-1-0900-95-ike.mp3 Xen was funded by commercial research money (from Microsoft and Intel IIRC) with the intent of turning it into a commercial venture, which is what Xensource is. All this "buzz" is to a large degree artificially generated to support the venture. > Apparently the current version (v2) isn't that great but the next > version (due out in August) sounds like a huge leap forward. And longhorn will just totally kick ass, so I heard! :-) Grisha ___ Vserver mailing list Vserver@list.linux-vserver.org http://list.linux-vserver.org/mailman/listinfo/vserver ___ Vserver mailing list Vserver@list.linux-vserver.org http://list.linux-vserver.org/mailman/listinfo/vserver
RE: [Vserver] solaris containers/zones
> Anyway, I like Vservers. I use Vservers. However owing to the "luck of the > draw" it looks like Xen is getting lots and LOTS of attention. FWIW I had a look at Xen as a technology before finding vservers. Given the problem it solves, it is a very good solution. But for me it is not the problem I need solving and I believe this is the case with a large number of other virtualisation problems. Generally the demand seems to be for a number of logical servers to share the same hardware. Given most admin preferences / corporate policies, these will normally be the same operating system (if you're bothered enough to use different OS's for security / stability you're also bothered enough to put them on different hardware). For this vservers (and similar on Solaris and FreeBSD) is the obvious solution, it allows very easy and intuitive management from the host machine (i.e. vkill and being able to admin all of the host filesystems simultaneously) which would be very difficult ot implement using the Xen model. Also it doesn't have some of the overheads that Xen and other solutions have, such as swap / memory useage algorithms clashing between layers and having the overhead of running multiple kernels. They both solve their own problems well and each others problems not so well IMHO. I just wish people would stop billing Xen as the solution ot vserver style problems. But that's just my 2p's worth. > Then again, if the Solaris people got their Linux emulation stuff (Janus?) > working properly, you could also run your Linux servers inside Solaris > Containers! To a degree but I believe this is just userland emulation so you wouldn't get everything. Now what would be fun is to use the Solaris / Irix / *BSD compatability layers in Linux to see if you could run $OTHEROS based userlands in vservers. Should be possible, would be cool and would probably help debug the compatability layers no end. Might hazard a guess that some shenanigans of this sort with Wine might be possible... but then I guess that's vservers getting into Xen territory. Cheers, - Martin ___ Vserver mailing list Vserver@list.linux-vserver.org http://list.linux-vserver.org/mailman/listinfo/vserver
RE: [Vserver] solaris containers/zones
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Mike Tierney wrote: As much as I like Vservers (we use them on 2 of our Production servers!!) it looks like the Xen project (open source virtual machine software) IS getting LOTS of media coverage and attention/resources from vendors (Novell, IBM, Sun, HP, Redhat, etc). This is called PR. If you read this, you'll have a better idea of what's going on here: http://www.pycon.org/data/95/pycon-20050325-1-0900-95-ike.mp3 Xen was funded by commercial research money (from Microsoft and Intel IIRC) with the intent of turning it into a commercial venture, which is what Xensource is. All this "buzz" is to a large degree artificially generated to support the venture. Apparently the current version (v2) isn't that great but the next version (due out in August) sounds like a huge leap forward. And longhorn will just totally kick ass, so I heard! :-) Grisha ___ Vserver mailing list Vserver@list.linux-vserver.org http://list.linux-vserver.org/mailman/listinfo/vserver
RE: [Vserver] solaris containers/zones
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Gregory (Grisha) Trubetskoy wrote: This is called PR. If you read this, you'll have a better idea of what's going on here: http://www.pycon.org/data/95/pycon-20050325-1-0900-95-ike.mp3 oops, bad paste job - the link is: http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html grisha ___ Vserver mailing list Vserver@list.linux-vserver.org http://list.linux-vserver.org/mailman/listinfo/vserver
Re: [Vserver] solaris containers/zones
On Fri, Jun 24, 2005 at 09:39:38AM +1200, Mike Tierney wrote: > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:vserver- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Nuzum > > Sent: Friday, 24 June 2005 5:36 a.m. > > To: vserver@list.linux-vserver.org > > Subject: RE: [Vserver] solaris containers/zones > > > > > > I just thought you might like a glimpse of one other way someone is > > doing > > > this > > > > sort of thing. > > > > > > hmm, you sure you know what linux-vserver 2.6/vs2.0 can do? > > > I guess I don't... I'm running out of hardware to experiment with, so I > > haven't been playing with the new stuff too much. > > VMware Workstation (virtual machine software) will let you have as many > different distributions of Linux (or *BSD or Solaris 10) running as you have > disk space for. It has both Windows and Linux versions. It costs money to > buy the software but you can download an Evaluation Copy. It also lets you > clone your virtual machines as well, or even "snapshot" them while they are > running. Great tool for messing about with stuff and/or cross-platform > development. > > > You know, if a distro wanted to get some media attention, they could put > > some effort behind the vserver project and roll it into their distro as an > > optional module with a nice config tool. > > As much as I like Vservers (we use them on 2 of our Production servers!!) it > looks like the Xen project (open source virtual machine software) IS getting > LOTS of media coverage and attention/resources from vendors (Novell, IBM, > Sun, HP, Redhat, etc). Apparently the current version (v2) isn't that great > but the next version (due out in August) sounds like a huge leap forward. > Even though its virtual machines rather than virtual servers, they claim way > less overhead than other Virtual Machine software (like the VMware server > products). > > Check out http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/06/15/xen_goes_three also check out: http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/free_issues/issue_05/focus-linux_vserver/ > Then do a few googles and you find lots of other interesting stuff, like IBM > sinking research people into making a security enchanced version (XenSE), > etc. > > > Of course, I don't know if vserver can be built as an optional module, > > I've only built it into a vanilla kernel, but still... they could raise a > lot > > of hype and woo some enterprise (aka paying customer) market share, I > think. > > Xen RPM's are available for some distro's now and the two big Enterprise > players (Redhat and SuSE) are incorporating it into their next major > release. It's also going into the mainstream 2.6 kernel "soon". > > Anyway, I like Vservers. I use Vservers. However owing to the "luck of the > draw" it looks like Xen is getting lots and LOTS of attention. > > Having said that, I'd not run a Production server on it yet! So I'll be > sticking with Vservers for another 10 months at least. > > Then again, if the Solaris people got their Linux emulation stuff (Janus?) > working properly, you could also run your Linux servers inside Solaris > Containers! which means you get less features for a higher price, so what's the point there? the solaris compatibility? best, Herbert > ___ > Vserver mailing list > Vserver@list.linux-vserver.org > http://list.linux-vserver.org/mailman/listinfo/vserver ___ Vserver mailing list Vserver@list.linux-vserver.org http://list.linux-vserver.org/mailman/listinfo/vserver
RE: [Vserver] solaris containers/zones
I have a hard time imagining Xen running on typical computers. Xen seems to be a virtualization platform that allows running (among others) linux as a virtual OS. You boot it before you boot an OS. Vserver takes an all-ready-running OS and lets you run another OS inside of it. I can't explain why, but it just doesn't seem apples-to-apples to compare Vserver and Xen. I also have this aversion to Xen because it feels too commercial. Its almost like a "sanctioned" commercial software company that has been given permission to put an open-source stub of its software into Linux so that it can make money. Kind of like Zend's relationship with PHP. (not to imply that the relationship isn't beneficial to the FOSS community) We'll see what practical application comes from Xen but I suspect it will be a niche product (different niche from Vserver) and invariably will require the outlay of money to get the full benefit of it. -- Matthew Nuzum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> www.followers.net - Makers of "Elite Content Management System" View samples of Elite CMS in action by visiting http://www.followers.net/portfolio/ > -Original Message- > From: Mike Tierney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 4:40 PM > To: vserver@list.linux-vserver.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [Vserver] solaris containers/zones > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:vserver- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Nuzum > > Sent: Friday, 24 June 2005 5:36 a.m. > > To: vserver@list.linux-vserver.org > > Subject: RE: [Vserver] solaris containers/zones > > > > > > I just thought you might like a glimpse of one other way someone is > > doing > > > this > > > > sort of thing. > > > > > > hmm, you sure you know what linux-vserver 2.6/vs2.0 can do? > > > I guess I don't... I'm running out of hardware to experiment with, so I > > haven't been playing with the new stuff too much. > > VMware Workstation (virtual machine software) will let you have as many > different distributions of Linux (or *BSD or Solaris 10) running as you > have > disk space for. It has both Windows and Linux versions. It costs money to > buy the software but you can download an Evaluation Copy. It also lets you > clone your virtual machines as well, or even "snapshot" them while they > are > running. Great tool for messing about with stuff and/or cross-platform > development. > > > You know, if a distro wanted to get some media attention, they could put > > some effort behind the vserver project and roll it into their distro as > an > > optional module with a nice config tool. > > As much as I like Vservers (we use them on 2 of our Production servers!!) > it > looks like the Xen project (open source virtual machine software) IS > getting > LOTS of media coverage and attention/resources from vendors (Novell, IBM, > Sun, HP, Redhat, etc). Apparently the current version (v2) isn't that > great > but the next version (due out in August) sounds like a huge leap forward. > Even though its virtual machines rather than virtual servers, they claim > way > less overhead than other Virtual Machine software (like the VMware server > products). > > Check out http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/06/15/xen_goes_three > > Then do a few googles and you find lots of other interesting stuff, like > IBM > sinking research people into making a security enchanced version (XenSE), > etc. > > > Of course, I don't know if vserver can be built as an optional module, > > I've only built it into a vanilla kernel, but still... they could raise > a > lot > > of hype and woo some enterprise (aka paying customer) market share, I > think. > > Xen RPM's are available for some distro's now and the two big Enterprise > players (Redhat and SuSE) are incorporating it into their next major > release. It's also going into the mainstream 2.6 kernel "soon". > > Anyway, I like Vservers. I use Vservers. However owing to the "luck of the > draw" it looks like Xen is getting lots and LOTS of attention. > > Having said that, I'd not run a Production server on it yet! So I'll be > sticking with Vservers for another 10 months at least. > > Then again, if the Solaris people got their Linux emulation stuff (Janus?) > working properly, you could also run your Linux servers inside Solaris > Containers! ___ Vserver mailing list Vserver@list.linux-vserver.org http://list.linux-vserver.org/mailman/listinfo/vserver
RE: [Vserver] solaris containers/zones
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:vserver- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Nuzum > Sent: Friday, 24 June 2005 5:36 a.m. > To: vserver@list.linux-vserver.org > Subject: RE: [Vserver] solaris containers/zones > > > > I just thought you might like a glimpse of one other way someone is > doing > > this > > > sort of thing. > > > > hmm, you sure you know what linux-vserver 2.6/vs2.0 can do? > I guess I don't... I'm running out of hardware to experiment with, so I > haven't been playing with the new stuff too much. VMware Workstation (virtual machine software) will let you have as many different distributions of Linux (or *BSD or Solaris 10) running as you have disk space for. It has both Windows and Linux versions. It costs money to buy the software but you can download an Evaluation Copy. It also lets you clone your virtual machines as well, or even "snapshot" them while they are running. Great tool for messing about with stuff and/or cross-platform development. > You know, if a distro wanted to get some media attention, they could put > some effort behind the vserver project and roll it into their distro as an > optional module with a nice config tool. As much as I like Vservers (we use them on 2 of our Production servers!!) it looks like the Xen project (open source virtual machine software) IS getting LOTS of media coverage and attention/resources from vendors (Novell, IBM, Sun, HP, Redhat, etc). Apparently the current version (v2) isn't that great but the next version (due out in August) sounds like a huge leap forward. Even though its virtual machines rather than virtual servers, they claim way less overhead than other Virtual Machine software (like the VMware server products). Check out http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/06/15/xen_goes_three Then do a few googles and you find lots of other interesting stuff, like IBM sinking research people into making a security enchanced version (XenSE), etc. > Of course, I don't know if vserver can be built as an optional module, > I've only built it into a vanilla kernel, but still... they could raise a lot > of hype and woo some enterprise (aka paying customer) market share, I think. Xen RPM's are available for some distro's now and the two big Enterprise players (Redhat and SuSE) are incorporating it into their next major release. It's also going into the mainstream 2.6 kernel "soon". Anyway, I like Vservers. I use Vservers. However owing to the "luck of the draw" it looks like Xen is getting lots and LOTS of attention. Having said that, I'd not run a Production server on it yet! So I'll be sticking with Vservers for another 10 months at least. Then again, if the Solaris people got their Linux emulation stuff (Janus?) working properly, you could also run your Linux servers inside Solaris Containers! ___ Vserver mailing list Vserver@list.linux-vserver.org http://list.linux-vserver.org/mailman/listinfo/vserver
Re: [Vserver] solaris containers/zones
On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 12:36:29PM -0500, Matthew Nuzum wrote: > > > I just thought you might like a glimpse of one other way someone is > doing > > this > > > sort of thing. > > > > hmm, you sure you know what linux-vserver 2.6/vs2.0 can do? > > > > anyway, thanks for the input! > > > > best, > > Herbert > > > > :-[ > I guess I don't... I'm running out of hardware to experiment with, so I > haven't been playing with the new stuff too much. you can get a feeling by reading my paper or just looking at the version matrix ... http://linux-vserver.org/Linux-VServer-Paper http://linux-vserver.org/Release+FAQ > You know, if a distro wanted to get some media attention, they could put > some effort behind the vserver project and roll it into their distro as an > optional module with a nice config tool. probably ... > Of course, I don't know if vserver can be built as an optional module, I've module is not really an option, we change too many things which are not covered by LSM hooks or such > only built it into a vanilla kernel, but still... they could raise a lot of > hype and woo some enterprise (aka paying customer) market share, I think. only time will tell ... best, Herbert > -- > Matthew Nuzum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > www.followers.net - Makers of "Elite Content Management System" > View samples of Elite CMS in action by visiting > http://www.followers.net/portfolio/ > > ___ > Vserver mailing list > Vserver@list.linux-vserver.org > http://list.linux-vserver.org/mailman/listinfo/vserver ___ Vserver mailing list Vserver@list.linux-vserver.org http://list.linux-vserver.org/mailman/listinfo/vserver
RE: [Vserver] solaris containers/zones
> > I just thought you might like a glimpse of one other way someone is doing > this > > sort of thing. > > hmm, you sure you know what linux-vserver 2.6/vs2.0 can do? > > anyway, thanks for the input! > > best, > Herbert > :-[ I guess I don't... I'm running out of hardware to experiment with, so I haven't been playing with the new stuff too much. You know, if a distro wanted to get some media attention, they could put some effort behind the vserver project and roll it into their distro as an optional module with a nice config tool. Of course, I don't know if vserver can be built as an optional module, I've only built it into a vanilla kernel, but still... they could raise a lot of hype and woo some enterprise (aka paying customer) market share, I think. -- Matthew Nuzum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> www.followers.net - Makers of "Elite Content Management System" View samples of Elite CMS in action by visiting http://www.followers.net/portfolio/ ___ Vserver mailing list Vserver@list.linux-vserver.org http://list.linux-vserver.org/mailman/listinfo/vserver
Re: [Vserver] solaris containers/zones
On Thu, Jun 23, 2005 at 12:15:54PM -0500, Matthew Nuzum wrote: > I just saw this article come through the big-admin newsletter. I don't > currently have any Solaris computers and I haven't used Solaris 10 (or 9 for > that matter), so all I can do is read about it. This seems kind of cool and > in-line with what my ideal linux-vserver usage would look like. I just use > vservers to logically separate applications so that as they grow they can > spin off to their own server w/out hassle. Of course, vserver is great for > that because it has so little resource overhead. > > http://www.sun.com/bigadmin/content/submitted/dollar_container.html > > The feature that strikes me as so intriguing is the ability to allocate CPU > resources to zones. > > Also, look how they create a zone for tomcat. That strikes me as a very easy > to use tool (no editing config files, just use set). > > Not that I'm trying to critique any of the work being done on vserver; I > just thought you might like a glimpse of one other way someone is doing this > sort of thing. hmm, you sure you know what linux-vserver 2.6/vs2.0 can do? anyway, thanks for the input! best, Herbert > -- > Matthew Nuzum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > www.followers.net - Makers of "Elite Content Management System" > View samples of Elite CMS in action by visiting > http://www.followers.net/portfolio/ > > > > ___ > Vserver mailing list > Vserver@list.linux-vserver.org > http://list.linux-vserver.org/mailman/listinfo/vserver ___ Vserver mailing list Vserver@list.linux-vserver.org http://list.linux-vserver.org/mailman/listinfo/vserver
