Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
Come off it. Under no circumstance has it ever cost us more to do it right than to do it poorly; shoddy workmanship always results in higher costs. If it is costing you too much to do it right, you are doing more than just your coding wrong. On 10/25/07, Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for your information, Rogier. Doesn't change my thinking though. Firefox with the Firefox logo works how it's supposed to, so there is a difference between the debian thing and the 'real' Firefox. And this difference isn't one we care about. First of all, if there are any users in that category, there isn't more than a handful. Secondly, they don't have to go to this page to use the site. This is separate 'help' information. Thirdly anyone who experiences the problem we were trying to solve can still navigate the site. So yes, it would be good to fix it. But there are far more pressing issues for us to work on and if any user finds they are experiencing the problem this was about, we don't care now, since all the users reflected in our site stats are not experiencing the problem. Cost/benefit once again. Ideally, we'd like the site to have no issues at all. But out of 100,000 users, 1 or 2 (at most!) might not be able to use the drop down menu to navigate out of the self-running demonstration and have to use the back button instead.If debian ever gets to the point in Australia where our users start using it, the cost/benefit ratio might change, at which time we might revisit the decision to move on to other issues. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia 0422 985 585 Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rogier Schoenmaker Sent: Friday, 26 October 2007 5:03 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash Mike, Just for your information Iceweasel IS firefox, just with another name (build from the firefox source by the debian team). Because of those stupid American patent laws you can't use a name of software without a logo and because the logo is copyrighted, debian doesn't wants it in their O.S. fyi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceweasel I understand that you have to prioritize how your site works with O.S.' es and browsers, but if you decide to use a plugin like flash you should go for it completely or don't. It's out of the question that users can't navigate your site, just because of some fancy flash. But that's my 2 cents. Rogier. On 25/10/2007, Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think its wonderful how, every time I post something to this list, people will rush to tell me how we ought to be spending our scarce development dollars. Christian Montoya, why do you assume that we're so dumb we don't know anything about our customers? We have quite a large number of Firefox customers, but if they're using Firefox, the site works fine. I know because I've tested it in Firefox. I develop with Firefox. My client's testing regime includes Firefox. There were several people on this list who tested it in Firefox and didn't report any problems. The issue was raised by Roger who said there was a small problem with Firefox (IceWeasel) for debian whatever that is, not Firefox.You accuse us of making poor assumptions when that's indeed what you did in your patronising way. It might be true in big shops that there are unlimited development dollars sufficient to allocate teams of people to iron out every last little issue, but in small shops like mine (and they don't come smaller than my business!!) there isn't unlimited time available. Here's a lesson in business for some of you. There is a limited supply of time and dollars, and most jobs have a deadline. If you're running a development shop for profit, there often comes a time when you have to accept there will be issues with your output, and as lon gas it doesn't impact unduly on your customers sometimes you have to just let the issues remain in order to run the business. I can't afford to be spending time tracking down every last problem. And my client wont pay me to either. We make some compromise decisions along the way.We will not even be testing our site in the browsers mentioned by Roger: Firefox (IceWeasel) for debian, or Epiphany (whatever the hell they are). I've never heard of those browsers and I surely doubt many of my client's customers have either.The site works how we want it to in the major environments, and in the others it's still usable, if a little quirky. That's where it's gonna stop while we move on to more important issues like rebuilding the shopping cart that is showing signs of stress with the volumes
Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
On Oct 26, 2007, at 9:21 AM, Michael Kear wrote: Good lord I’m glad you don’t run my development process. Let bloody debian fix their problem! Why should I have to spend MY time fixing things because they don’t get it right??? ... you are not fit to manage a commercial development operation. Please! Enough already! Some people have enough time, energy and dedication to squash every bug. Some people have to deal with considerations. If you don't have something nice to say... Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
I object to this notion that it's shoddy for me to ignore an insignificant number of users. And I resent your assertion that it is. Someone produces a version of some browser and it exists, and just because it exists, somewhere in the world, I'm being shoddy if I don't buy a machine to install that OS, learn about how it works, and then spend however long it takes to make special tweaks so a minor problem goes away for the 1 or 2 people that MIGHT possibly experience the problem? The people who made debian have produced shoddy work. Why do you accuse me of being shoddy?? It's THEM who are shoddy not me. No wonder no one uses it here. Good lord I'm glad you don't run my development process. Let bloody debian fix their problem! Why should I have to spend MY time fixing things because they don't get it right??? This page works fine on every browser and OS we have in our stats.We fixed the problem for those browsers a long time ago and moved on. If you cant see that there has to be some limit to the amount of time you can spend on a project tracking down every last tweak and quirk regardless of whether there are any affected users or not you are not fit to manage a commercial development operation. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia 0422 985 585 Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com http://afpwebworks.com/ Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Wilson Sent: Friday, 26 October 2007 4:10 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash Come off it. Under no circumstance has it ever cost us more to do it right than to do it poorly; shoddy workmanship always results in higher costs. If it is costing you too much to do it right, you are doing more than just your coding wrong. On 10/25/07, Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for your information, Rogier. Doesn't change my thinking though. Firefox with the Firefox logo works how it's supposed to, so there is a difference between the debian thing and the 'real' Firefox. And this difference isn't one we care about. First of all, if there are any users in that category, there isn't more than a handful. Secondly, they don't have to go to this page to use the site. This is separate 'help' information. Thirdly anyone who experiences the problem we were trying to solve can still navigate the site. So yes, it would be good to fix it. But there are far more pressing issues for us to work on and if any user finds they are experiencing the problem this was about, we don't care now, since all the users reflected in our site stats are not experiencing the problem. Cost/benefit once again. Ideally, we'd like the site to have no issues at all. But out of 100,000 users, 1 or 2 (at most!) might not be able to use the drop down menu to navigate out of the self-running demonstration and have to use the back button instead.If debian ever gets to the point in Australia where our users start using it, the cost/benefit ratio might change, at which time we might revisit the decision to move on to other issues. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia 0422 985 585 Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rogier Schoenmaker Sent: Friday, 26 October 2007 5:03 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash Mike, Just for your information Iceweasel IS firefox, just with another name (build from the firefox source by the debian team). Because of those stupid American patent laws you can't use a name of software without a logo and because the logo is copyrighted, debian doesn't wants it in their O.S. fyi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceweasel I understand that you have to prioritize how your site works with O.S.' es and browsers, but if you decide to use a plugin like flash you should go for it completely or don't. It's out of the question that users can't navigate your site, just because of some fancy flash. But that's my 2 cents. Rogier. On 25/10/2007, Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think its wonderful how, every time I post something to this list, people will rush to tell me how we ought to be spending our scarce development dollars. Christian Montoya, why do you assume that we're so dumb we don't know anything about our customers? We have quite a large number of Firefox customers, but if they're using Firefox, the site works fine. I know because I've tested it in Firefox. I develop with Firefox. My client's testing regime includes Firefox. There were several people on this list who tested it in Firefox and didn't report any
RE: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
What's wrong with your Debian server? Regards, Mark Hedley Voxia Web Development Solutions Mobile: +44 07894 009 932 Office: +44 01670 840 752 Web: http://www.voxia.co.uk/ http://www.voxia.co.uk Proud Members of: GAWDS (Guild of Accessible Web Designers) | Web Standards Group | Independent Web Developers Portal | HTML Writers Guild From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew Maben Sent: 26 October 2007 14:38 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash On Oct 26, 2007, at 9:21 AM, Michael Kear wrote: Good lord I'm glad you don't run my development process. Let bloody debian fix their problem! Why should I have to spend MY time fixing things because they don't get it right??? ... you are not fit to manage a commercial development operation. Please! Enough already! Some people have enough time, energy and dedication to squash every bug. Some people have to deal with considerations. If you don't have something nice to say... Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
Thanks for your information, Rogier. Doesn't change my thinking though. Firefox with the Firefox logo works how it's supposed to, so there is a difference between the debian thing and the 'real' Firefox. And this difference isn't one we care about. First of all, if there are any users in that category, there isn't more than a handful. Secondly, they don't have to go to this page to use the site. This is separate 'help' information. Thirdly anyone who experiences the problem we were trying to solve can still navigate the site. So yes, it would be good to fix it. But there are far more pressing issues for us to work on and if any user finds they are experiencing the problem this was about, we don't care now, since all the users reflected in our site stats are not experiencing the problem. Cost/benefit once again. Ideally, we'd like the site to have no issues at all. But out of 100,000 users, 1 or 2 (at most!) might not be able to use the drop down menu to navigate out of the self-running demonstration and have to use the back button instead.If debian ever gets to the point in Australia where our users start using it, the cost/benefit ratio might change, at which time we might revisit the decision to move on to other issues. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia 0422 985 585 Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rogier Schoenmaker Sent: Friday, 26 October 2007 5:03 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash Mike, Just for your information Iceweasel IS firefox, just with another name (build from the firefox source by the debian team). Because of those stupid American patent laws you can't use a name of software without a logo and because the logo is copyrighted, debian doesn't wants it in their O.S. fyi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceweasel I understand that you have to prioritize how your site works with O.S.' es and browsers, but if you decide to use a plugin like flash you should go for it completely or don't. It's out of the question that users can't navigate your site, just because of some fancy flash. But that's my 2 cents. Rogier. On 25/10/2007, Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think its wonderful how, every time I post something to this list, people will rush to tell me how we ought to be spending our scarce development dollars. Christian Montoya, why do you assume that we're so dumb we don't know anything about our customers? We have quite a large number of Firefox customers, but if they're using Firefox, the site works fine. I know because I've tested it in Firefox. I develop with Firefox. My client's testing regime includes Firefox. There were several people on this list who tested it in Firefox and didn't report any problems. The issue was raised by Roger who said there was a small problem with Firefox (IceWeasel) for debian whatever that is, not Firefox.You accuse us of making poor assumptions when that's indeed what you did in your patronising way. It might be true in big shops that there are unlimited development dollars sufficient to allocate teams of people to iron out every last little issue, but in small shops like mine (and they don't come smaller than my business!!) there isn't unlimited time available. Here's a lesson in business for some of you. There is a limited supply of time and dollars, and most jobs have a deadline. If you're running a development shop for profit, there often comes a time when you have to accept there will be issues with your output, and as lon gas it doesn't impact unduly on your customers sometimes you have to just let the issues remain in order to run the business. I can't afford to be spending time tracking down every last problem. And my client wont pay me to either. We make some compromise decisions along the way.We will not even be testing our site in the browsers mentioned by Roger: Firefox (IceWeasel) for debian, or Epiphany (whatever the hell they are). I've never heard of those browsers and I surely doubt many of my client's customers have either.The site works how we want it to in the major environments, and in the others it's still usable, if a little quirky. That's where it's gonna stop while we move on to more important issues like rebuilding the shopping cart that is showing signs of stress with the volumes we're getting, and redesigning the database which no longer copes with the range of products we have to accommodate. Those of you who think the minimum standard is perfection, good for you. Well done, I salute you. I wish I had your set of deadlines and funding to be able to do the same. Our standard is slightly lower at 'as good as we can get it within the time and money allowed
