Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hanno Schlichting wrote: > Log message for revision 96569: > Lot's of updates over the weekend! > > > Changed: > A zope2book/trunk/TODO.txt > A zope2book/trunk/old/ > A zope2book/trunk/old/AdvDTML.rst > A zope2book/trunk/old/DTML.rst > U zope2book/trunk/source/Acquisition.rst > D zope2book/trunk/source/AdvDTML.rst I think it is too premature to be moving the DTML chapters out of the book: if we arent just updating the book to be current with 2.12, then we probably need to discuss what kind of book we want, before chopping it apart. At the moment, the book is largely a guide to what can be done with Zope TTW. DTML is still part of that store: it isn't gone, nor even deprecated: its just that most core developers prefer not to use it in most cases. Note that there is still no replacement for DTML for at least one major TTW use case (SQL methods). Rewriting the "when to use ZPT vs. DTML bits, and making them more prominent earlier in the book, would be a sensible change. Tres. - -- === Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tsea...@palladion.com Palladion Software "Excellence by Design"http://palladion.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFJmDiA+gerLs4ltQ4RAhIHAKCzo/z1InRyAx5rz2GI0grrHwC9/ACfa6oL 4YOVh5HtzRuLYEkhCDNncpE= =LDwp -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hanno Schlichting wrote: > Tres Seaver wrote: >> Hanno Schlichting wrote: >>> Log message for revision 96569: >>> Lot's of updates over the weekend! >> I think it is too premature to be moving the DTML chapters out of the >> book: if we arent just updating the book to be current with 2.12, then >> we probably need to discuss what kind of book we want, before chopping >> it apart. > > OK. I wasn't too sure either. I can put them back in, but make it > clearer that using ZPT is preferred over DTML for all tasks where it is > possible. I would rather make the case, explaining the tradeoffs, including the fact that the consensus of the community is as you express, but then let people make up their own minds. DTML is *not* like ZClasses: it isn't bitrotting through lack of use, nor is it scheduled (or ever) likely to be removed from Zope2. Please keep in mind the ZMI / TTW focus of the current book, while you're at it: this book is not aimed at Python / filesystem developers at all, but at casual users working on simple TTW apps. For instance, the still-prevalent use of ZPT as a scripting language (versus a templating language) is arguably *worse* than DTML: it is harder to read, and completely breaks the original promise of ZPT (not trashing the designer's HTML). Note that *I* still (ab)use ZPT this way, because it is expedient, and because I know I can clean it up if it gets too messy, but that doesn't make it "advisable." Tres. - -- === Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tsea...@palladion.com Palladion Software "Excellence by Design"http://palladion.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD4DBQFJmDy6+gerLs4ltQ4RAqZ/AKCmfXML8g0wdpBcWCbQlmtjFvPXbwCXczcn 5bjbN6NibFXnhmAR7+/XRw== =BP53 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 15.02.2009 17:03 Uhr, Tres Seaver wrote: > Hanno Schlichting wrote: >> Tres Seaver wrote: >>> Hanno Schlichting wrote: Log message for revision 96569: Lot's of updates over the weekend! >>> I think it is too premature to be moving the DTML chapters out of the >>> book: if we arent just updating the book to be current with 2.12, then >>> we probably need to discuss what kind of book we want, before chopping >>> it apart. >> OK. I wasn't too sure either. I can put them back in, but make it >> clearer that using ZPT is preferred over DTML for all tasks where it is >> possible. > > I would rather make the case, explaining the tradeoffs, including the > fact that the consensus of the community is as you express, but then let > people make up their own minds. > > DTML is *not* like ZClasses: it isn't bitrotting through lack of use, > nor is it scheduled (or ever) likely to be removed from Zope2. Please > keep in mind the ZMI / TTW focus of the current book, while you're at > it: this book is not aimed at Python / filesystem developers at all, > but at casual users working on simple TTW apps. +1. DTML is still a 1st-class citizen of Zope 2. So the DTML documentation should remain in place. Both related DTML chapters should perhaps get a clear preface containing something like the following and/or somehow marked as "obsolete" Zope techology (obsolete in the sense that we're having better alternatives): - ZPT is the preferred and recommended way for generating HTML or markup-ish output - DTML playing only a role for ZSQL methods - DTML might be used for generating text-ish content (non-HTML, non-XML content) - DTML should really only be used if there are no other alternatives (for ZSQL methods we have SQLAlchemy based integration layers) Andreas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkmYQlkACgkQCJIWIbr9KYwvuACgjY9S9wrZmqG9mokQxP3PdpaL x0cAnRuHUHthOapIc5zPNoipX+LMP6hm =s/Yr -END PGP SIGNATURE- begin:vcard fn:Andreas Jung n:Jung;Andreas org:ZOPYX Ltd. & Co. KG adr;quoted-printable:;;Charlottenstr. 37/1;T=C3=BCbingen;;72070;Germany email;internet:i...@zopyx.com title:CEO tel;work:+49-7071-793376 tel;fax:+49-7071-7936840 tel;home:+49-7071-793257 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:www.zopyx.com version:2.1 end:vcard ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!
Tres Seaver wrote at 2009-2-15 10:45 -0500: > ... >At the moment, the book is largely a guide to what can be done with Zope >TTW. DTML is still part of that store: it isn't gone, nor even >deprecated: its just that most core developers prefer not to use it in >most cases. Note that there is still no replacement for DTML for at >least one major TTW use case (SQL methods). In addition, CSS and Javascript is easier generated with DTML than with page templates. -- Dieter ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!
Tres Seaver wrote at 2009-2-15 11:03 -0500: > ... >I would rather make the case, explaining the tradeoffs, including the >fact that the consensus of the community is as you express, but then let >people make up their own minds. +1 I hate the tendancy of quite a few Zope core developpers to dictate how others should develop *their* applications. -- Dieter ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 16.02.2009 18:45 Uhr, Dieter Maurer wrote: > Tres Seaver wrote at 2009-2-15 11:03 -0500: >> ... >> I would rather make the case, explaining the tradeoffs, including the >> fact that the consensus of the community is as you express, but then let >> people make up their own minds. > > +1 > > I hate the tendancy of quite a few Zope core developpers to dictate > how others should develop *their* applications. Please come off it. Either become an active contributor and participate in our dictatorship or we become deaf over time from your ongoing rumbling. Andreas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkmZrokACgkQCJIWIbr9KYyJfACg3nMaligMl5asbWKKsKsJPuBz B+kAoLVvQLwUZvW42AbNQnTHesdxKjyX =kZMW -END PGP SIGNATURE- begin:vcard fn:Andreas Jung n:Jung;Andreas org:ZOPYX Ltd. & Co. KG adr;quoted-printable:;;Charlottenstr. 37/1;T=C3=BCbingen;;72070;Germany email;internet:i...@zopyx.com title:CEO tel;work:+49-7071-793376 tel;fax:+49-7071-7936840 tel;home:+49-7071-793257 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:www.zopyx.com version:2.1 end:vcard ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!
Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-2-16 19:20 +0100: > ... >Please come off it. Either become an active contributor and participate >in our dictatorship I will never participate in your dictatorship! -- Dieter ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 16.02.2009 19:43 Uhr, Dieter Maurer wrote: > Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-2-16 19:20 +0100: >> ... >> Please come off it. Either become an active contributor and participate >> in our dictatorship > > I will never participate in your dictatorship! > How childish. Andreas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkmZtXsACgkQCJIWIbr9KYyM4wCeNKC+EwUXoj8e4bfFcxZUU1wx lEcAn0hB7ANoXhNDRfIJnUp6tF4Mdvkw =NZlx -END PGP SIGNATURE- begin:vcard fn:Andreas Jung n:Jung;Andreas org:ZOPYX Ltd. & Co. KG adr;quoted-printable:;;Charlottenstr. 37/1;T=C3=BCbingen;;72070;Germany email;internet:i...@zopyx.com title:CEO tel;work:+49-7071-793376 tel;fax:+49-7071-7936840 tel;home:+49-7071-793257 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:www.zopyx.com version:2.1 end:vcard ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Feb 16, 2009, at 19:43 , Dieter Maurer wrote: > Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-2-16 19:20 +0100: >> ... >> Please come off it. Either become an active contributor and >> participate >> in our dictatorship > > I will never participate in your dictatorship! Only those who participate can influence the direction. Standing on the sidelines and complaining is not helpful, neither for you nor for other developers, and certainly not for the community. jens -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkmZwdsACgkQRAx5nvEhZLJAjgCgo16HfvahaI/e9QNJU5SMtf3O N8AAn0qSADoJsrheKzVwUqI1SRxAnLkL =QIf8 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!
Dieter Maurer wrote: Tres Seaver wrote at 2009-2-15 10:45 -0500: ... At the moment, the book is largely a guide to what can be done with Zope TTW. DTML is still part of that store: it isn't gone, nor even deprecated: its just that most core developers prefer not to use it in most cases. Note that there is still no replacement for DTML for at least one major TTW use case (SQL methods). In addition, CSS and Javascript is easier generated with DTML than with page templates. You should really not generate CSS ;) And JS is best generated with Jason :-) Regards Tino smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!
On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 12:08, Tino Wildenhain wrote: > You should really not generate CSS ;) And JS is best generated with > Jason :-) You need to generate CSS when you want to use absolute paths for images referred to in your CSS. This can easily be done with ZPT: The above code snippet is taken from a current project; the portal_url dance is there because this is a browser:resource template and such a template only has access to the request, not a context. We also generate some JS to provide client-side code with translated labels. Alternatively you can do this with hidden elements in your main template as well, but the generated JS way was more maintainable as this keeps the labels and the code close together. -- Martijn Pieters ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!
Previously Martijn Pieters wrote: > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 12:08, Tino Wildenhain wrote: > > You should really not generate CSS ;) And JS is best generated with > > Jason :-) > > You need to generate CSS when you want to use absolute paths for > images referred to in your CSS. This can easily be done with ZPT: Very often you don't need to do that though, and it actively breaks the ability to do prototyping with your html and css outside of the application. Wichert. -- Wichert Akkerman It is simple to make things. http://www.wiggy.net/ It is hard to make things simple. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!
On Tuesday 17 February 2009, Wichert Akkerman wrote: > > You need to generate CSS when you want to use absolute paths for > > images referred to in your CSS. This can easily be done with ZPT: > > Very often you don't need to do that though, and it actively breaks the > ability to do prototyping with your html and css outside of the > application. You could also port z3c.zrtresource to Zope 2, which solves this exact problem. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter Web Software Design, Development and Training Google me. "Zope Stephan Richter" ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!
Tres Seaver wrote: >>> I think it is too premature to be moving the DTML chapters out of the >>> book: if we arent just updating the book to be current with 2.12, then >>> we probably need to discuss what kind of book we want, before chopping >>> it apart. and > I would rather make the case, explaining the tradeoffs, including the > fact that the consensus of the community is as you express, but then let > people make up their own minds. +1 to both. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!
Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-2-16 19:50 +0100: >-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- >Hash: SHA1 > >On 16.02.2009 19:43 Uhr, Dieter Maurer wrote: >> Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-2-16 19:20 +0100: >>> ... >>> Please come off it. Either become an active contributor and participate >>> in our dictatorship >> >> I will never participate in your dictatorship! >> > >How childish. I hate dictatorship - consequently I will not participate. -- Dieter ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!
Jens Vagelpohl wrote at 2009-2-16 20:43 +0100: > ... >On Feb 16, 2009, at 19:43 , Dieter Maurer wrote: > >> Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-2-16 19:20 +0100: >>> ... >>> Please come off it. Either become an active contributor and >>> participate >>> in our dictatorship >> >> I will never participate in your dictatorship! > >Only those who participate can influence the direction. As I will make it with ZClasses, I will participate outside your circles. Thus, you may dictate and I fight your dictatorship -- Dieter ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 21.02.2009 11:27 Uhr, Dieter Maurer wrote: > Jens Vagelpohl wrote at 2009-2-16 20:43 +0100: >> ... >> On Feb 16, 2009, at 19:43 , Dieter Maurer wrote: >> >>> Andreas Jung wrote at 2009-2-16 19:20 +0100: ... Please come off it. Either become an active contributor and participate in our dictatorship >>> I will never participate in your dictatorship! >> Only those who participate can influence the direction. > > As I will make it with ZClasses, I will participate outside your circles. > Thus, you may dictate and I fight your dictatorship > Zope is like anarchy - not dictatorship. So you're fighting against non-existing enemies :-) Andreas -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkmf2P4ACgkQCJIWIbr9KYwpvACdGimY5X3SCdco2XO5ghlXQd9+ lWQAn23/5LTeiHvOldSu2Dbr2vr9MgUR =vAUP -END PGP SIGNATURE- begin:vcard fn:Andreas Jung n:Jung;Andreas org:ZOPYX Ltd. & Co. KG adr;quoted-printable:;;Charlottenstr. 37/1;T=C3=BCbingen;;72070;Germany email;internet:i...@zopyx.com title:CEO tel;work:+49-7071-793376 tel;fax:+49-7071-7936840 tel;home:+49-7071-793257 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:www.zopyx.com version:2.1 end:vcard ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 11:27, Dieter Maurer wrote: > As I will make it with ZClasses, I will participate outside your circles. > Thus, you may dictate and I fight your dictatorship With the revolutionary eggification of the masses that is underway the dictatorship has ended. Zope 2.12 is a libertarian meritodemocracy. -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] SVN: zope2book/trunk/ Lot's of updates over the weekend!
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 11:37, Lennart Regebro wrote: > With the revolutionary eggification of the masses that is underway the > dictatorship has ended. Zope 2.12 is a libertarian meritodemocracy. Well, at least if you have svn access. :) -- Lennart Regebro: Pythonista, Barista, Notsotrista. http://regebro.wordpress.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
