I'm proposing the following draft ballot to resolve the menu/desktop
question. This draft is available in git; feel free to make specific
changes there and announce them to the bug. If there is no discussion or
substantial changes to this draft, I will call for votes around Monday
the 3rd of August
Unless someone objects
I propose that the following text also be included in option b:
Using its power under §6.1.5 to offer advice:
1. The Technical Committee suggests that the maintainers of the
Debian menu package support translating .desktop files of
packages which do not prov
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015, Sam Hartman wrote:
> Unless someone objects
> I propose that the following text also be included in option b:
>
> Using its power under §6.1.5 to offer advice:
>
>1. The Technical Committee suggests that the maintainers of the
> Debian menu package support translati
Le mercredi, 29 juillet 2015, 10.29:10 Don Armstrong a écrit :
> On Wed, 29 Jul 2015, Sam Hartman wrote:
> > Unless someone objects
> > I propose that the following text also be included in option b:
> >
> > Using its power under §6.1.5 to offer advice:
> >1. The Technical Committee suggests t
On Sun, 16 Aug 2015, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:
> What about "just" adding Keith's proposal to the ballot, and let the
> Condorcet magic act?
This has sort of been my plan; I just have not had enough spare cycles
in the past few weeks (grant deadlines) to have the time necessary to
work through K
> "Don" == Don Armstrong writes:
Don> On Sun, 16 Aug 2015, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:
>> What about "just" adding Keith's proposal to the ballot, and let
>> the Condorcet magic act?
Don> This has sort of been my plan; I just have not had enough spare
Don> cycles in the p
Le Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 05:54:50PM +0200, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud a écrit :
>
>3. We recommend that the maintainers of the 'menu' package update
> that package to reflect this increased focus on .desktop files
> by modifying the 'menu' package to use .desktop files for the
> sou
Hi Charles, and thanks for your feedback,
Le lundi, 17 août 2015, 21.25:59 Charles Plessy a écrit :
> I think that option D has two fundamental flaws and I would like to
> recommend the TC against voting for it.
>
> * First, if it is voted, nothing will happen.
>
> If the TC adopts option D, and
Le Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 06:14:45PM +0200, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud a écrit :
> Hi Charles, and thanks for your feedback,
Thanks as well for your prompt answer :) Here are a few point-to-point
comments. Altogether, I would happily support option D if it were further
amended.
> the last sentence of D
On Mon, 17 Aug 2015, Sam Hartman wrote:
> > "Don" == Don Armstrong writes:
>
> Don> On Sun, 16 Aug 2015, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:
> >> What about "just" adding Keith's proposal to the ballot, and let
> >> the Condorcet magic act?
>
> Don> This has sort of been my plan; I j
Le mardi, 18 août 2015, 14.01:27 Don Armstrong a écrit :
> On Mon, 17 Aug 2015, Sam Hartman wrote:
> > > "Don" == Don Armstrong writes:
> > Don> On Sun, 16 Aug 2015, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:
> > >> What about "just" adding Keith's proposal to the ballot, and
> > >> let
> > >
> "Don" == Don Armstrong writes:
>> While we're not overturning anything in the sense of an override
>> here, I think we owe an explanation for our actions, and I feel
>> really strongly about that.
Don> Ideally the patch and its rationale should stand alone without
Don>
On Wednesday 19 August 2015 10:57:43 Sam Hartman wrote:
> > "Don" == Don Armstrong writes:
> >> While we're not overturning anything in the sense of an override
> >> here, I think we owe an explanation for our actions, and I feel
> >> really strongly about that.
>
> Don> Ideal
Responding mostly to Keith's draft from debian-ctte.git.
The Whereas leaves out a very important aspect of this. It is not
sufficient to simply decide on the file format. The primary dispute
here is not really about file formats.
The trad Debian menu is primarily curated collection of metadata
I had an interesting and helpful conversation with a member of the KDE
team at Debconf. They made an interesting proposal:
* We have machinery that can produce trad menu files from desktop
files.
* It is possible to have extension information in extra fields in a
.desktop file. This cou
Le jeudi, 27 août 2015, 18.11:56 Ian Jackson a écrit :
> The trad Debian menu, and the XDG menu files as found in existing
> desktop applications, do not agree on either
> (i) the scope of the menu
Right. But the 'trad Debian menu' (as outlined in Policy §9.6) has never
reached the point where "a
Didier 'OdyX' Raboud writes ("Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve
menu/desktop question"):
> Right. But the 'trad Debian menu' (as outlined in Policy §9.6) has never
> reached the point where "applications that need not be passed any
&g
Ian, I'd like to encourage you to use less loaded words than "destroy."
When I hear that term and disagree with your analysis, my emotional
reaction is strong enough that I stop reading.
Your term is loaded enough that you lose the opportunity to try and get
me to think about whether you are right
Sam Hartman writes ("Re: Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve
menu/desktop question"):
> Ian, I'd like to encourage you to use less loaded words than
> "destroy."
I can see why you are objecting but I'm afraid I cannot see these
proposals any o
> "Ian" == Ian Jackson writes:
Hi.
I'd appreciate it if you would look at the restatement at the bottom and
help me make sure I'm understanding the technical implications of the
proposal we're considering.
>> I think I may be following what Ian's saying.
Ian> I agree with what you s
Sam Hartman writes ("Re: Bug#741573: Proposed draft of ballot to resolve
menu/desktop question"):
> I'd appreciate it if you would look at the restatement at the bottom and
> help me make sure I'm understanding the technical implications of the
> proposal we'
I realise that it was perhaps a tactical error to send both
(a) a message with impassioned rhetoric and (b) a message containing
constructive proposal.
Let me repost the proposal with some extra commentary:
Ian Jackson writes:
> I had an interesting and helpful conversation with a member of the K
Ian Jackson wrote:
> - defining new field names for .desktop files to contain
>the trad menu metadata, as necessary. I think we can safely
>call these fields X-Debian-* or X-Debian-Menu-* or something.
What is the use case for these fields?
> - a small amount of work in the already-
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Maybe some people need to get rid of that mentality where other people
> have to do more work to comply with their twisted view of reality.
Calling someone else's viewpoint twisted is needlessly inflammatory and
not acceptable when discussing bugs wh
Le vendredi, 28 août 2015, 13.51:52 Ian Jackson a écrit :
> Didier 'OdyX' Raboud writes:
> > Keith's proposal doesn't imply that the trad menu would "be
> > destroyed" (your words),
>
> It does. There is nothing in Keith's proposal which preserves the
> existing trad menu metadata. According to `
On Friday 28 August 2015 16:06:45 Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:
[snip]
> I think apparmor is a fine example: the maintainers of apparmor do
> maintain the apparmor-profiles package which collects apparmor profiles
> for packages that don't ship them (or that ship outdated or broken
> ones). This give
On Friday 28 August 2015 13:27:54 you wrote:
> On Friday 28 August 2015 16:06:45 Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:
> [snip]
>
> > I think apparmor is a fine example: the maintainers of apparmor do
> > maintain the apparmor-profiles package which collects apparmor profiles
> > for packages that don't shi
On Thursday 27 August 2015 18:11:56 Ian Jackson wrote:
> So the real dispute is: should the existing application metadata
> database (currently represented by the Debian trad menu files in
> existing packages):
>
> (a) continue to be maintained in its existing file format
>
> (b) be translated
On 28/08/15 19:22, Sune Vuorela wrote:
On Thursday 27 August 2015 18:11:56 Ian Jackson wrote:
(c) be destroyed.
Given that there are people who want to maintain it, I think (c) is
unacceptable.[1]
Unfortunately, the people who wants to maintain it are not the same people who
has to carry
Ian Jackson writes:
> * Overall, this would make it possible, therefore, to maintain the
>menu information primarily in the more sophisticated .desktop
>format, so that source packages with .desktop files would not need
>to contain trad menu files too.
Yes, the wording that Sam and
On Friday 28 August 2015 19:58:02 Matthew Vernon wrote:
> That's not much comfort to folk like me who use the trad menu (I'm an
> FVWM user) - you're proposing getting rid of something that currently
> works, and leaving nothing to replace it with.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Xdg-menu
T
On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 05:18:06PM -0700, Keith Packard wrote:
> > * Overall, this would make it possible, therefore, to maintain the
> >menu information primarily in the more sophisticated .desktop
> >format, so that source packages with .desktop files would not need
> >to contain tra
On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 09:13:33AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
> If we adopt Keith's proposal without updating policy 9.6--we retainIs
> the SHOULD have menu entries for all command line apps, but move the
> metadata format to .desktop, we have a number of problems. We have no
> way to express the c
> "Steve" == Steve Langasek writes:
Steve> On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 09:13:33AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
>> If we adopt Keith's proposal without updating policy 9.6--we
>> retainIs the SHOULD have menu entries for all command line apps,
>> but move the metadata format to .deskt
On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 20:00:55 -0700 Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 09:13:33AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
> > If we adopt Keith's proposal without updating policy 9.6--we retainIs
> > the SHOULD have menu entries for all command line apps, but move the
> > metadata format to .desktop
Steve Langasek writes:
> 741573_menu_systems/keithp_draft.txt includes further guidance regarding the
> technical details of how to map between the menu system and .desktop files.
> Since this is not on the ballot itself, how do we intend to surface this so
> that it can be useful to the Policy p
Charles Plessy writes:
> Thanks. I would appreciate if it would be acknowledged, I am a bit academic
> by
> training...
The proposed ballot tries to clarify the difference between D and AB by
noting:
6. The policy change by Charles Plessy in ba679bff76[1]
would comply with this decis
Le Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 10:01:27PM -0700, Keith Packard a écrit :
>
> Thinking about this tonight, I've rewritten option D as AB + patch.
> OPTION D':
>
> Using its power under §6.1.1 to decide on any matter of technical
> policy, and its power under §6.1.5 to offer advice:
>
>1. The Techn
Le dimanche, 30 août 2015, 22.01:27 Keith Packard a écrit :
> Thinking about this tonight, I've rewritten option D as AB + patch.
>
> As you can see, this makes packages shipping menu and .desktop files
> for the same application buggy, makes all packages using the Debian
> Menu System buggy, and
> "Keith" == Keith Packard writes:
Keith> Thinking about this tonight, I've rewritten option D as AB +
Keith> patch.
Keith> As you can see, this makes packages shipping menu and
Keith> .desktop files for the same application buggy, makes all
Keith> packages using the Debi
Sam Hartman writes:
> I ask you to retain the following two paragraphs that explain why we
> prefer option D should we adopt this:
>The Technical Committee has reviewed the underlying technical
>issues around this question and has resolved that Debian will be
>best served by migrating
> "Keith" == Keith Packard writes:
Keith> Do you think the reworded version is easier to understand in
Keith> the context of the overall process? That was my major concern
Keith> here.
I think a bit.
My big question is whether you think we'd still be able to call for a
vote tomor
Sam Hartman writes:
> I think a bit.
> My big question is whether you think we'd still be able to call for a
> vote tomorrow if we make this change.
I think the change has real benefit beyond simple clarification by
immediately adopting Charles' changes to policy without waiting for
further chan
OK.
I'd really appreciate hearing from anyone now who needs more time before
a CFV.
Sam Hartman writes:
> OK.
> I'd really appreciate hearing from anyone now who needs more time before
> a CFV.
I'd also love to hear back from Charles about the updated D proposal,
and whether that helps him understand what it means.
--
-keith
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Le Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 01:57:21PM -0700, Keith Packard a écrit :
> Sam Hartman writes:
>
> > OK.
> > I'd really appreciate hearing from anyone now who needs more time before
> > a CFV.
>
> I'd also love to hear back from Charles about the updated D proposal,
> and whether that helps him underst
On Aug 31 2015, Sam Hartman wrote:
> OK.
> I'd really appreciate hearing from anyone now who needs more time before
> a CFV.
Please don't forget that if anyone needs more time, they can always vote
FD.
Best,
-Nikolaus
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Fingerprint: ED
Hi.
Your recent post to Ian is inappropriate and not consistent with the
rules of conduct we've established for our communication.
Multiple members of our community have talked to you about this issue.
Please stop.
owner@bugs and listmaster copied, although I will not request any
specific action
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