Re: (313) The Crisis in Detroit
Maybe someone can do a Michigan casino heist like in Reindeer Games. ;) -- From: Garrett McGrath [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: George Jones IV - logic7 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: (313) The Crisis in Detroit Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 2:37 PM On Feb 3, 2005, at 7:22 AM, George Jones IV - logic7 wrote: Will Detroit end up like James O. Barr's Detroit from The Crow? and you think it's not already there because?
Re: (313) The Crisis in Detroit
The thing I don't understand is this, if a city's school system is sh*t and has self proclaimed it's sht...then OF COURSE empty nesters are all that's going to live in the area. I'm not going to get into an 'education rant' here- but shame on the mayor and more shame on the people higher up on the state level for putting their own school system in the crapper, putting the children who NEED stability the most at even more risk, and taking faith in learning away from teachers and students. When I was doing graduate work in tourism my thing was that people need to understand that cities are like people. If one is going to rebuild themselves properly they need to start from the inside out. Start on the mind (education/schools), awareness (museums,points of culture such as theater and music venues) and the soul (the people, jobs, etc). Sure, it's easier said than done. But no matter how many people a broken person surrounds themselves with through casinos and festivals...those surrounding and visiting people will always leave if the person remains broken from the inside. Detroit can build as many casinos, lofts,ice rinks and corporate buildings and throw as many festivals as it wants. But very few people will stay as long as it remains broken from the inside. A crisis is usually defined as a turning point. If so, Detroit should of had it a long time ago...seems that the right people weren't listening. --- Ian Malbon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd buy that for a dollar! On Feb 3, 2005, at 10:04 AM, George Jones IV - logic7 wrote: Soon... Really soon... -Original Message- From: Brian Prince [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 5:00 PM To: atomly Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) The Crisis in Detroit atomly said: http://tinyurl.com/4nagx How long until OCP takes over the city government and starts installing ED-209 units downtown? -bp -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.4 - Release Date: 2/1/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.4 - Release Date: 2/1/2005 -- Ian __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: (313) The Crisis in Detroit
On Feb 3, 2005, at 7:22 AM, George Jones IV - logic7 wrote: Will Detroit end up like James O. Barr's Detroit from The Crow? and you think it's not already there because?
Re: (313) The Crisis in Detroit
I think that maybe it's time to face the reality that Detroit just sucks, on so many levels and for so many reasons. Detroit is a bit like a wife-beater; no matter how bad it gets we keep coming back for more because after every black eye we get Detroit always manages to give us roses and apologize. Anyway, things will definately get better. Africa Town will certainly revitalize the city, and if not that then the new stadium will *definately* do it, and if that doesn't work well the Superbowl is a Sure Thing because all the people coming to Detroit will be amazed at how the Casino has transformed the city and how great it is to get around on the monorail. Best of luck to all still there, I'm never going back to that man ever, I even got a restraining order on him!!! Tosh
Re: (313) The Crisis in Detroit
As an aside for those interested, I've moved to the Baltimore area permanently. While I think Saint Louis uses greenspace better than any other city in the Midwest, visit IT if you think Detroit is bad. Now with that said, here's the skinny. For the last thirty years cities like Detroit have been draining people like a sieve. Whites left not only because many of them couldn't deal with the prospect of living in a black city, but also because they had other options. Suburbs like Livonia, Dearborn, and Southfield didn't allow blacks to move in them, and had strict zoning regulations making sure that only middle-upper income folks were welcome. And why pay people union scale wages in the US when you can move to Mexico and pay (including benefits) less than a 20th what you would pay a Detroiter? Used to be that you could get fired from Chrysler on July 1, and walk right across the street to GM and get a job the same day. With wages good enough to buy a decent home, a car (of course a car!), and pay for the college education of your kids. Those days are long gone. Over 35 years long gone. Urban school systems are archaic in at least two ways. Their infrastructure (the physical infrastructure) is usually more than fifty years old on average. So kids are supposed to learn chemistry in labs that were created before all of the elements were even DISCOVERED. And their pedagogy is well over 50 years old. To train urban citizens to be plant workers you need to teach them rote memorization, respect for authority, timeliness. These skills work fine for McDonalds. But they are no longer effective at even getting their graduates menial jobs at Mickey Ds, much less at teaching them the agency required to change their lived environment. So who would want to send their kids to urban public schools? Now in response to these problems, urban political officials have called for a pro-growth development strategy focusing on downtown development. Office buildings, convention centers, entertainment districts, casinos, stadiums. In as much as these entities are usually given significant tax abatements, there usually isn't the trickle down effect that folks advertise. But damn, it's sure cool to have a Border's in the city finally (which means THREE new bookstores for a city with over 900,000 residents--The Shrine of the Black Madonna, Border's downtown, and Barnes and Nobles at Wayne State). With all that said, it is unfair to place the blame on Kilpatrick--even though I am leaning against supporting him. He didn't support the takeover of the schools...Archer did. He didn't originate the idea of building up neighborhoods by building up downtown...Young did. He IS guilty of not getting out of that vicious no-win paradigm. But it isn't fundamentally his FAULT--though it is his responsibility. So I fully understand the sentiment of Diana's message. But it isn't really about shaming someone here. We're talking about something much bigger than that. peace lks On Feb 3, 2005, at 8:00 PM, diana potts wrote: The thing I don't understand is this, if a city's school system is sh*t and has self proclaimed it's sht...then OF COURSE empty nesters are all that's going to live in the area. I'm not going to get into an 'education rant' here- but shame on the mayor and more shame on the people higher up on the state level for putting their own school system in the crapper, putting the children who NEED stability the most at even more risk, and taking faith in learning away from teachers and students. When I was doing graduate work in tourism my thing was that people need to understand that cities are like people. If one is going to rebuild themselves properly they need to start from the inside out. Start on the mind (education/schools), awareness (museums,points of culture such as theater and music venues) and the soul (the people, jobs, etc). Sure, it's easier said than done. But no matter how many people a broken person surrounds themselves with through casinos and festivals...those surrounding and visiting people will always leave if the person remains broken from the inside. Detroit can build as many casinos, lofts,ice rinks and corporate buildings and throw as many festivals as it wants. But very few people will stay as long as it remains broken from the inside. A crisis is usually defined as a turning point. If so, Detroit should of had it a long time ago...seems that the right people weren't listening. --- Ian Malbon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd buy that for a dollar! On Feb 3, 2005, at 10:04 AM, George Jones IV - logic7 wrote: Soon... Really soon... -Original Message- From: Brian Prince [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 5:00 PM To: atomly Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) The Crisis in Detroit atomly said: http://tinyurl.com/4nagx How long until OCP takes over the city government and starts installing ED
Re: (313) The Crisis in Detroit
Change a few names and it could be Sheffield/Birmingham/Berlin... M - Original Message - From: Dr. Lester K. Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: diana potts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 10:12 PM Subject: Re: (313) The Crisis in Detroit As an aside for those interested, I've moved to the Baltimore area permanently. While I think Saint Louis uses greenspace better than any other city in the Midwest, visit IT if you think Detroit is bad. Now with that said, here's the skinny. For the last thirty years cities like Detroit have been draining people like a sieve. Whites left not only because many of them couldn't deal with the prospect of living in a black city, but also because they had other options. Suburbs like Livonia, Dearborn, and Southfield didn't allow blacks to move in them, and had strict zoning regulations making sure that only middle-upper income folks were welcome. And why pay people union scale wages in the US when you can move to Mexico and pay (including benefits) less than a 20th what you would pay a Detroiter? Used to be that you could get fired from Chrysler on July 1, and walk right across the street to GM and get a job the same day. With wages good enough to buy a decent home, a car (of course a car!), and pay for the college education of your kids. Those days are long gone. Over 35 years long gone. Urban school systems are archaic in at least two ways. Their infrastructure (the physical infrastructure) is usually more than fifty years old on average. So kids are supposed to learn chemistry in labs that were created before all of the elements were even DISCOVERED. And their pedagogy is well over 50 years old. To train urban citizens to be plant workers you need to teach them rote memorization, respect for authority, timeliness. These skills work fine for McDonalds. But they are no longer effective at even getting their graduates menial jobs at Mickey Ds, much less at teaching them the agency required to change their lived environment. So who would want to send their kids to urban public schools? Now in response to these problems, urban political officials have called for a pro-growth development strategy focusing on downtown development. Office buildings, convention centers, entertainment districts, casinos, stadiums. In as much as these entities are usually given significant tax abatements, there usually isn't the trickle down effect that folks advertise. But damn, it's sure cool to have a Border's in the city finally (which means THREE new bookstores for a city with over 900,000 residents--The Shrine of the Black Madonna, Border's downtown, and Barnes and Nobles at Wayne State). With all that said, it is unfair to place the blame on Kilpatrick--even though I am leaning against supporting him. He didn't support the takeover of the schools...Archer did. He didn't originate the idea of building up neighborhoods by building up downtown...Young did. He IS guilty of not getting out of that vicious no-win paradigm. But it isn't fundamentally his FAULT--though it is his responsibility. So I fully understand the sentiment of Diana's message. But it isn't really about shaming someone here. We're talking about something much bigger than that. peace lks On Feb 3, 2005, at 8:00 PM, diana potts wrote: The thing I don't understand is this, if a city's school system is sh*t and has self proclaimed it's sht...then OF COURSE empty nesters are all that's going to live in the area. I'm not going to get into an 'education rant' here- but shame on the mayor and more shame on the people higher up on the state level for putting their own school system in the crapper, putting the children who NEED stability the most at even more risk, and taking faith in learning away from teachers and students. When I was doing graduate work in tourism my thing was that people need to understand that cities are like people. If one is going to rebuild themselves properly they need to start from the inside out. Start on the mind (education/schools), awareness (museums,points of culture such as theater and music venues) and the soul (the people, jobs, etc). Sure, it's easier said than done. But no matter how many people a broken person surrounds themselves with through casinos and festivals...those surrounding and visiting people will always leave if the person remains broken from the inside. Detroit can build as many casinos, lofts,ice rinks and corporate buildings and throw as many festivals as it wants. But very few people will stay as long as it remains broken from the inside. A crisis is usually defined as a turning point. If so, Detroit should of had it a long time ago...seems that the right people weren't listening. --- Ian Malbon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd buy that for a dollar! On Feb 3, 2005, at 10:04 AM, George Jones IV - logic7 wrote: Soon... Really soon... -Original Message
Re: (313) The Crisis in Detroit
Because dreaming about the future is all we have - Original Message - From: Dr. Lester K. Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martin Dust [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 11:01 PM Subject: Re: (313) The Crisis in Detroit exactly. and we wonder why electronic genres like house, techno, hip-hop, booty, etc. thrive the world over? lks On Feb 4, 2005, at 5:51 PM, Martin Dust wrote: Change a few names and it could be Sheffield/Birmingham/Berlin... M - Original Message - From: Dr. Lester K. Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: diana potts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 10:12 PM Subject: Re: (313) The Crisis in Detroit As an aside for those interested, I've moved to the Baltimore area permanently. While I think Saint Louis uses greenspace better than any other city in the Midwest, visit IT if you think Detroit is bad. Now with that said, here's the skinny. For the last thirty years cities like Detroit have been draining people like a sieve. Whites left not only because many of them couldn't deal with the prospect of living in a black city, but also because they had other options. Suburbs like Livonia, Dearborn, and Southfield didn't allow blacks to move in them, and had strict zoning regulations making sure that only middle-upper income folks were welcome. And why pay people union scale wages in the US when you can move to Mexico and pay (including benefits) less than a 20th what you would pay a Detroiter? Used to be that you could get fired from Chrysler on July 1, and walk right across the street to GM and get a job the same day. With wages good enough to buy a decent home, a car (of course a car!), and pay for the college education of your kids. Those days are long gone. Over 35 years long gone. Urban school systems are archaic in at least two ways. Their infrastructure (the physical infrastructure) is usually more than fifty years old on average. So kids are supposed to learn chemistry in labs that were created before all of the elements were even DISCOVERED. And their pedagogy is well over 50 years old. To train urban citizens to be plant workers you need to teach them rote memorization, respect for authority, timeliness. These skills work fine for McDonalds. But they are no longer effective at even getting their graduates menial jobs at Mickey Ds, much less at teaching them the agency required to change their lived environment. So who would want to send their kids to urban public schools? Now in response to these problems, urban political officials have called for a pro-growth development strategy focusing on downtown development. Office buildings, convention centers, entertainment districts, casinos, stadiums. In as much as these entities are usually given significant tax abatements, there usually isn't the trickle down effect that folks advertise. But damn, it's sure cool to have a Border's in the city finally (which means THREE new bookstores for a city with over 900,000 residents--The Shrine of the Black Madonna, Border's downtown, and Barnes and Nobles at Wayne State). With all that said, it is unfair to place the blame on Kilpatrick--even though I am leaning against supporting him. He didn't support the takeover of the schools...Archer did. He didn't originate the idea of building up neighborhoods by building up downtown...Young did. He IS guilty of not getting out of that vicious no-win paradigm. But it isn't fundamentally his FAULT--though it is his responsibility. So I fully understand the sentiment of Diana's message. But it isn't really about shaming someone here. We're talking about something much bigger than that. peace lks On Feb 3, 2005, at 8:00 PM, diana potts wrote: The thing I don't understand is this, if a city's school system is sh*t and has self proclaimed it's sht...then OF COURSE empty nesters are all that's going to live in the area. I'm not going to get into an 'education rant' here- but shame on the mayor and more shame on the people higher up on the state level for putting their own school system in the crapper, putting the children who NEED stability the most at even more risk, and taking faith in learning away from teachers and students. When I was doing graduate work in tourism my thing was that people need to understand that cities are like people. If one is going to rebuild themselves properly they need to start from the inside out. Start on the mind (education/schools), awareness (museums,points of culture such as theater and music venues) and the soul (the people, jobs, etc). Sure, it's easier said than done. But no matter how many people a broken person surrounds themselves with through casinos and festivals...those surrounding and visiting people will always leave if the person remains broken from the inside. Detroit can build as many casinos, lofts,ice rinks and corporate buildings and throw as many festivals
Re: (313) The Crisis in Detroit
atomly said: http://tinyurl.com/4nagx How long until OCP takes over the city government and starts installing ED-209 units downtown? -bp
RE: (313) The Crisis in Detroit
Soon... Really soon... -Original Message- From: Brian Prince [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 5:00 PM To: atomly Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) The Crisis in Detroit atomly said: http://tinyurl.com/4nagx How long until OCP takes over the city government and starts installing ED-209 units downtown? -bp -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.4 - Release Date: 2/1/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.4 - Release Date: 2/1/2005
Re: (313) The Crisis in Detroit
I'd buy that for a dollar! On Feb 3, 2005, at 10:04 AM, George Jones IV - logic7 wrote: Soon... Really soon... -Original Message- From: Brian Prince [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 5:00 PM To: atomly Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) The Crisis in Detroit atomly said: http://tinyurl.com/4nagx How long until OCP takes over the city government and starts installing ED-209 units downtown? -bp -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.4 - Release Date: 2/1/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.4 - Release Date: 2/1/2005 -- Ian
RE: (313) The Crisis in Detroit
Put your bets on the table people. Will Detroit end up like the New Detroit of Robocop fame or James O. Barr's Detroit from The Crow? -Original Message- From: Ian Malbon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 8:17 AM To: George Jones IV - logic7 Cc: 313@hyperreal.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'atomly' Subject: Re: (313) The Crisis in Detroit I'd buy that for a dollar! -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.4 - Release Date: 2/1/2005
(313) The Crisis in Detroit
http://tinyurl.com/4nagx -- :: atomly :: [ [EMAIL PROTECTED] : www.atomly.com ... [ atomiq records : po box 805319 chicago il 60680 : 312.804.5389 ... [ e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] for atomly info and updates ...
