Web Service Call in 4Dv15

[Ronnie Teo via 4D_Tech]

Hi All,

I would like to seek some help/advise on an XML issue in 4Dv15 on Windows.

I have an app that is currently running in v11.  XML transmission via the 
consumption of a hosted web service is working well.
User decides to upgrade their server from Windows Server 2008r2 to 2012 and 
from v11 to v15.

XML transmission from the v11 database when ported over to the new staging 
server continues to work well.  For the converted v15 application, running on 
the same staging server, everything works except the XML transmission.  Same 
server, same port, soap URL, same web service yet it works on v11 works but not 
v15.

On v15, the Web Service Call command returns with the OK variable not equal to 
1  and a soap server not reachable response.

Have tried comparing all the settings between the two 4D versions to make them 
similar but to no avail.  Does anyone have any encounters with this issue or 
what could possibly have gone awry with the Web Service Call command in v15?


Thanks,
Ronnie
Tarawerkz
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Web

[Ronnie Teo via 4D_Tech]

Hi All,

I would like to seek some help/advise on an XML issue in 4Dv15 on Windows.

I have an app that is currently running in v11.  XML transmission via the 
consumption of a hosted web service is working well.
User decides to upgrade their server from Windows Server 2008r2 to 2012 and 
from v11 to v15.

XML transmission from the v11 database when ported over to the new staging 
server continues to work well.  For the converted v15 application, running on 
the same staging server, everything works except the XML transmission.  Same 
server, same port, soap URL, same web service yet it works on v11 works but not 
v15.

On v15, the Web Service Call command returns with the OK variable not equal to 
1  and a soap server not reachable response.

Have tried comparing all the settings between the two 4D versions to make them 
similar but to no avail.  Does anyone have any encounters with this issue or 
what could possibly have gone awry with the Web Service Call command in v15?


Thanks,
Ronnie
Tarawerkz




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Re: 4D Summit 2018 Comments - Import XML Structure

[Thomas Maul via 4D_Tech]

>So Laurent must have been confused and maybe thought, why create fields 
> with SQL when you could create tables and fields with the IMPORT STRUCTURE 
> command.

While I did not shared that conversation, I can only imagine that there was a 
misunderstanding in "how to modify the XML based structure".
LR is usually not working with the version we just release, he is often far 
ahead.
And for the ones visiting 4D Summit they might remember the last presentation 
"peak into future", where the whole binary structure document was stored as 
text based project folder. The structure itself is in this case just the XML 
file you get when you do a Structure export, but  you never need to import it, 
just modify the structure on disk with a text editor (or by code) and restart 
4D. And I could imagine that's the procedure he had in mind.

As this way is not useable for the rest of us for today, I would use the XML 
export to identify relations names to change - and then go through the 
structure. I know, this can be an hour of work. I did myself so, when we 
introduced 4D Mobile with v14, as this already used the relation names. And I'm 
currently doing it again, as I have now a better understanding of how to choose 
good names.

Best regards
Thomas Maul





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Re: v13 - Win 7 and LEP [solution/summary]

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Keisuke is ridiculously smart!

Robert

> On Apr 7, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Chip Scheide via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for everyone who tried to help 
> and special thanks to Keisuke!

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Re: 4D Summit 2018 Comments - Import XML Structure

[Julio Carneiro via 4D_Tech]

I believe LR may have suggested importing XML into a new structure. That’ll 
give you what you want. You can then open the old structure with a 4D copy and 
drag&drop methods & forms across.

depending on the size (and age) of your structure, probably easier to manually 
rename the relations, I guess

> On Apr 10, 2018, at 6:33 PM, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> On Apr 10, 2018, at 12:40 PM, Randy Engle wrote:
> 
>> I tried this from several different angles (16r6)
>> Import XML Structure works like importing records.
>> It doesn't "update" or "merge", just imports new structure elements (Tables)
>> 
>> Perhaps Laurent was confused at that moment?
> 
> You are right Randy.  I did some quick tests and IMPORT STRUCTURE command 
> will not update existing tables. The documentation says "If an imported table 
> has the same name as a local one, an error is generated and the import 
> operation is aborted.” and this is the case.
> 
> So Laurent must have been confused and maybe thought, why create fields with 
> SQL when you could create tables and fields with the IMPORT STRUCTURE 
> command. You can do that, but what we want to do is update existing tables 
> and fields and that is currently not possible with this command. 
> 
> So we are stuck again with the inability to set the “map NULL values to 
> blank” field property when creating fields with SQL. 
> 
> Tim
>   
> Tim Nevels 
> timnev...@mac.com 
> Innovative Solutions
> 785-749-3444
> 
> 
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--
Julio Carneiro
jjfo...@gmail.com



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Re: 4D Summit 2018 Comments - Import XML Structure

[Pat Bensky via 4D_Tech]

I suggest you mention JPR in this message so that JPR will see it and
perhaps pass your comments along :)

Pat

On 10 April 2018 at 22:33, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
wrote:

> On Apr 10, 2018, at 12:40 PM, Randy Engle wrote:
>
> > I tried this from several different angles (16r6)
> > Import XML Structure works like importing records.
> > It doesn't "update" or "merge", just imports new structure elements
> (Tables)
> >
> > Perhaps Laurent was confused at that moment?
>
> You are right Randy.  I did some quick tests and IMPORT STRUCTURE command
> will not update existing tables. The documentation says "If an imported
> table has the same name as a local one, an error is generated and the
> import operation is aborted.” and this is the case.
>
> So Laurent must have been confused and maybe thought, why create fields
> with SQL when you could create tables and fields with the IMPORT STRUCTURE
> command. You can do that, but what we want to do is update existing tables
> and fields and that is currently not possible with this command.
>
> So we are stuck again with the inability to set the “map NULL values to
> blank” field property when creating fields with SQL.
>
> Tim
>
> Tim Nevels
> timnev...@mac.com 
> Innovative Solutions
> 785-749-3444
>
>
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-- 
*
CatBase - Top Dog in Data Publishing
tel: +44 (0) 207 118 7889
w: http://www.catbase.com
skype: pat.bensky
*
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RE: 4D Summit 2018 Comments - Import XML Structure

[Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech]

On Apr 10, 2018, at 12:40 PM, Randy Engle wrote:

> I tried this from several different angles (16r6)
> Import XML Structure works like importing records.
> It doesn't "update" or "merge", just imports new structure elements (Tables)
> 
> Perhaps Laurent was confused at that moment?

You are right Randy.  I did some quick tests and IMPORT STRUCTURE command will 
not update existing tables. The documentation says "If an imported table has 
the same name as a local one, an error is generated and the import operation is 
aborted.” and this is the case.

So Laurent must have been confused and maybe thought, why create fields with 
SQL when you could create tables and fields with the IMPORT STRUCTURE command. 
You can do that, but what we want to do is update existing tables and fields 
and that is currently not possible with this command. 

So we are stuck again with the inability to set the “map NULL values to blank” 
field property when creating fields with SQL. 

Tim

Tim Nevels 
timnev...@mac.com 
Innovative Solutions
785-749-3444


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Re: 4D Summit 2018 Comments

[Brian Young via 4D_Tech]

> On Apr 9, 2018, at 6:46 PM, Jim Crate via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> On Apr 9, 2018, at 10:06 AM, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
>> What is ORDA? It is not a “a historical sociopolitical and military 
>> structure of Mongol Eurasia”. This is a new term that 4D has created. It 
>> stands for Object Relational Database Access.
> The concept of an ORM is not new, and actual implementations date to the 
> early 90s (the Enterprise Object Framework (EOF) from Next is the first one 
> I’m aware of, although I’m not sure how the query language worked, since I’ve 
> never used it beyond a WebObjects class in the late 90s.

> Considering that query language like this has been implemented in other ORMs 
> for decades, primarily on top of SQL databases, it’s likely that 4D is 
> actually using the 4D SQL engine underneath the new query language. The SQL 
> implementation already queries the database without changing the (one) 
> current selection, and in your example above, $entSel is not a “current 
> selection” (they referred to having as many “selections” as you want), it is 
> a collection of entity objects.


Hi Jim,

Regarding ORM vs. ORDA and its implementation:

ORDA does not access data through the SQL engine.  It talks directly to the 
database engine.  This is key to ORDA.

ORMs like EOF* or its descendant CoreData*, are translation layers on top of 
some datastore – which is usually a SQL database but could even be an xml file. 
 The ORM is responsible for translating queries, talking directly to the 
datastore, loading data into memory as needed, presenting the result as an 
object graph, and writing changes back to the datastore.  As an abstraction 
layer, the ORM is still only making SQL calls to do its operations.  As an 
abstraction layer, it adds overhead to the system and has fallen-out of favor 
with a class of developer that wants the greatest performance or finds the 
Object/Relational impedance mismatch to be a problem, preferring to use SQL 
directly.

ORDA is native to the 4D database engine.  There is no translation layer on top 
of the database engine.  The process of building the engine this way has been 
underway for the majority of this decade.  This level of performance and memory 
optimization will mean it is important for the 4D community to be clear that 
ORDA does not carry the baggage that typical ORM implementations do.

4D’s advantage has always been integration and this case is no different. The 
entire environment: UI, web-server, language and more are being built to take 
advantage of high performance data access though an object interface that 
includes effortless relations between objects.

Sometimes it is worth waiting and getting features implemented with fewer 
tradeoffs, and more advantages.

my very best

-Brian


* I am most familiar with these Apple/Next technologies, less so with other 
ORM's

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Re: 4D Summit 2018 Comments

[Richard Wright via 4D_Tech]

> Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2018 23:03:31 -0500
> From: Tim Nevels 
> 
> The 4D SQL engine is a layer above the 4D database engine. SQL statements 
> must be translated into a form that the 4D database engine can process. And 
> that can take many forms. Some would work but be super slow, others could be 
> optimized to take advantage of the 4D database engine and be fast. So you 
> have to create a parse that can make this happen. It can be done, but it is 
> not an easy task. Hence the need for “quality individuals” to make this 
> happens. 

I seem to remember being specifically told back in the early days of v11 that 
the SQL engine was not a layer on top of the 4D engine, but that it was 
completely separate.



Richard Wright
DataDomain
rwri...@datadomainsoftware.com


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Re: 4D Summit 2018 Comments

[Tom Swenson via 4D_Tech]

What would be cool would be to create some form of overloaded operators.

Say you wanted to merge two contacts (define your rules for that in the member 
function)
Then you could say something like (I'm just making up the systax)
Contact{1}.merge(contact{2})

The future looks like fun and not the dystopia I secretly dread __

On 4/9/18, 1:32 PM, "4D_Tech on behalf of Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech" 
<4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com on behalf of 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

But we will be able, in the future, to create our own “member functions”.

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Re: Installing a Wildcard SSL Certificate

[Pascal Geuns via 4D_Tech]

Hi Douglas,

Does the server start up correctly ?

How did you make the cert.pem file ? Make sure it does not contain any 
invisible characters and the linefeeds should be just regular linefeeds not 
windows linefeeds.

Hope that helps.

Kind Regards
Pascal Geuns
QualitySSL

Meet me on LinkedIn
http://www.linkedin.com/in/pascalgeuns  
>


QualitySSL Certificates for your 4D Server, visit
http://www.qualityssl.com/  
>


> On 10 Apr 2018, at 19.19, Douglas Cryer via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
> It has been some time since I have installed an SSL certificate with 4D and I 
> seem to be having little success.
> 
> In this case I want to use a wildcard SSL certificate so I found an article 
> that explained what you had to do with the intermediate part of the 
> certificate.  
> 
> I have followed:
> http://doc.4d.com/4Dv15/4D/15.5/Using-TLS-Protocol.300-3576925.en.html 
> 
> and
> http://kb.4d.com/assetid=34856 
> 
> I believe I have done everything I need to but for the life of me I cannot 
> get a connection to the server via HTTPS.  I have tried to get it running on 
> port 19225 but when that did not work I also tried on standard 443
> 
> Server is responding fine on HTTP (19223) and the correct ports are open on 
> both Windows firewall and the physical CISCO firewall.
> 
> Is there anybody out there who has loads of experience can either give me 
> some tips or sell me some time to get this sorted?
> 
> Regards,  Dougie
> 
> 
> telekinetix Limited- J. Douglas Cryer
> Phone : 01234 761759  Mobile : 07973 675 218
> 2nd Floor Broadway House, 4-6 The Broadway, Bedford MK40 2TE
> Email : jdcr...@telekinetix.com   Web : 
> http://www.telekinetix.com 
> 
> 
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Installing a Wildcard SSL Certificate

[Douglas Cryer via 4D_Tech]

Hi folks,

It has been some time since I have installed an SSL certificate with 4D and I 
seem to be having little success.

In this case I want to use a wildcard SSL certificate so I found an article 
that explained what you had to do with the intermediate part of the 
certificate.  

I have followed:
http://doc.4d.com/4Dv15/4D/15.5/Using-TLS-Protocol.300-3576925.en.html 

and
http://kb.4d.com/assetid=34856 

I believe I have done everything I need to but for the life of me I cannot get 
a connection to the server via HTTPS.  I have tried to get it running on port 
19225 but when that did not work I also tried on standard 443

Server is responding fine on HTTP (19223) and the correct ports are open on 
both Windows firewall and the physical CISCO firewall.

Is there anybody out there who has loads of experience can either give me some 
tips or sell me some time to get this sorted?

Regards,  Dougie


telekinetix Limited- J. Douglas Cryer
Phone : 01234 761759  Mobile : 07973 675 218
2nd Floor Broadway House, 4-6 The Broadway, Bedford MK40 2TE
Email : jdcr...@telekinetix.com   Web : 
http://www.telekinetix.com 

 
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Re: 4D Summit 2018 Comments

[Lee Hinde via 4D_Tech]

> On Apr 9, 2018, at 10:32 AM, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Something that may not be immediately obvious is that using ORDA will reduce 
> the amount of code needed to query the database. In relational databases you 
> have to query this table, join to another table, query selection, relate 
> many, etc. We are all used to doing this and we need to know exactly what the 
> database structure is. What table is the one table, what table is the many 
> table, is there a many-to-many intermediate table we need to deal with, etc. 

I use Django, an open-source python web framework, for my pure-web projects.

This is what a user search looks like. I tell users they can search by last and 
first or by last name (this is for one specific search block, more complex 
searches are available. :-))

def people_name_search(name):
if name:
if ',' in name:
lname, fname = split_name(name)
return Person.objects.filter(last_name__istartswith=lname, 
first_name__istartswith=fname,
 deactivated=False)[:10]
else:
return Person.objects.filter(last_name__istartswith=name, 
deactivated=False)[:10]
else:
return Person.objects.none()

You can suss that out even though there is magic syntax (objects? 
istartswith?). What you can’t see is that the object “Person” has a default 
sort order defined (last name, first name), so that result gives you an ordered 
list of the first 10 records that match the query.

Below  is a cross table (join) query:

The table relationship are Person <—Enrollment—> Registration and Person 
<—ProductSale—> Registration..

The query gives me the registration records that have associated enrollment or 
product sales records that are linked to a person whose name is ….

The Q thing is the syntactic sugar needed to do OR searches. (all the 
frameworks have their wth.)

def enrollee_name_search(name):
if name:
if ',' in name:
lname, fname = split_name(name)
return 
Registration.objects.select_related().filter(Q(enrollment__person__last_name__istartswith=lname,
  
enrollment__person__first_name__istartswith=fname)
|

Q(productsale__person__last_name__istartswith=lname,
  
productsale__person__first_name__istartswith=fname)
)
else:
return 
Registration.objects.select_related().filter(Q(enrollment__person__last_name__istartswith=name)
|

Q(productsale__person__last_name__istartswith=name)
)
else:
return Registration.objects.none()

All of which is to say,  ORDA is going to make complete sense if you’ve done 
any work in a semi-modern framework.

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Re: 4D Summit 2018 Comments

[Richard Wright via 4D_Tech]

> Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 21:46:17 -0400
> From: Jim Crate 
> 
> On Apr 9, 2018, at 10:06 AM, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
>> So you want an example of ORDA and changes to the 4D language? Here’s one 
>> form JPR’s advanced class. (Hope I am not doing copywriter infringement 
>> here.) 
>> 
>> You have a table called “Employee”. Just one table. It has a “managerID” 
>> field and has a relation back to the “ID” field of the same table. (Yeah, 
>> that’s not possible in the current version of 4D, but it is in v17.) The 
>> name of the relation is “manager”. Find all Employees working for a manager 
>> whose “firstname” is “Laurel”. Here is how you would do it now:
>> 
>> QUERY([Employee];[Employee]firstname="Laurel")  // First Query 
>> ARRAY LONGINT($arIDs;0)
>> SELECTION TO ARRAY([Employee]ID;$arIDs)
>> QUERY WITH ARRAY([Employee]managerID;$arIDs)
>> 
>> That gives you a selection of [Employee] records. Here is how you do it via 
>> ORDA in v17:
>> 
>> $entSel:=ds.Employee.query("manager.firstname = ‘Laurel’ “)
>> …
>> And it can be recursive. Say you want to find the managers of the managers 
>> whose name is “Laurel”. You do it like this:
>> 
>> $entSel:=ds.Employee.query("manager.manager.firstname = ‘Laurel’ “)
> 
> Ruby on Rails has had similar syntax since the 2005 timeframe (part of the 
> ORM), but it’s nice to see these concepts finally making their way to 4D. It 
> will definitely reduce the pointless amount of 4D code you have to write to 
> do almost anything. 
> 
> Considering that query language like this has been implemented in other ORMs 
> for decades, primarily on top of SQL databases, it’s likely that 4D is 
> actually using the 4D SQL engine underneath the new query language. The SQL 
> implementation already queries the database without changing the (one) 
> current selection, and in your example above, $entSel is not a “current 
> selection” (they referred to having as many “selections” as you want), it is 
> a collection of entity objects.

4D’s SQL support self joins right now:

Select b.ID From Employee as ‘b’, Employee as ‘a’ Where a.firstname = ‘Laurel’ 
And a.ID = b.managerID

I think all this new stuff is great but I’d like to see some significant 
improvements in 4D’s SQL because that is still the standard and that’s how 
people need to get data out of 4D using ODBC. Improvements like the ability to 
do a select from a subquery and set operations, for example, would hugely 
increase it’s value. And some speed improvements for joins are sorely needed. I 
feel like 4D’s SQL is an abandoned child which is really a shame.



Richard Wright
DataDomain
rwri...@datadomainsoftware.com


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RE: 4D Summit 2018 Comments - Import XML Structure

[Randy Engle via 4D_Tech]

I tried this from several different angles (16r6)
Import XML Structure works like importing records.
It doesn't "update" or "merge", just imports new structure elements (Tables)

Perhaps Laurent was confused at that moment?

😉

Randy Engle, Director
XC2 Software LLC – XC2LIVE!

-Original Message-
From: 4D_Tech <4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com> On Behalf Of Patrick Emanuel via 
4D_Tech
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2018 8:44 AM
To: 4d_tech@lists.4d.com
Cc: Patrick Emanuel 
Subject: Re: 4D Summit 2018 Comments

Hi,

>> naming relations is needed to take make the code readable. 
>Laurent's suggestion is to export the structure in XML, modify all the
relation names in the text file, and reimport the structure as XML. It will be 
faster than to go across the complete graphical structure representation. 


I've just tried this and get an error message because table already existed 
(with a version < v17). Does it work started with the v17?
Just to know.



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Re: 4D Summit 2018 Comments

[Patrick Emanuel via 4D_Tech]

Hi,

>> naming relations is needed to take make the code readable. 
>Laurent's suggestion is to export the structure in XML, modify all the
relation names in the text file, and reimport the structure as XML. It will
be faster than to go across the complete graphical structure representation. 


I've just tried this and get an error message because table already existed
(with a version < v17). Does it work started with the v17?
Just to know.

Thanks

Patrick



-
Patrick EMANUEL

Administrator
www.association-qualisoft.eu 
(Soft1002, Simply Asso & QS_Toolbox)
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Re: 4D Summit 2018 Comments

[Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech]

Finally - a Frenchman unafraid to use quotes from Proust and Yogi Berra
like the curly brackets of a well formed JSON. Well done sir - well done.


-- 
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
===

*We go vote - they go home*
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Re: Zip file with password...?

[Koen Van Hooreweghe via 4D_Tech]

Hi Robert,

I had to investigate a similar request a while ago. As far as I know, ditto can 
only extract password encrypted zip archives, not create them.

But you might try with the zip command (as Chip also mentioned):

$command:="zip -r --encrypt --password "+$mypassword+" "+$ZipFile+$SourceFile

Beware the source en destination paths are the other way around as in the ditto 
command. Add double quotes where needed.

HTH
Koen

> Op 9 apr. 2018, om 23:32 heeft Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> het volgende geschreven:
> 
> LAUNCH EXTERNAL PROCESS("ditto -c -k -X --norsrc "+Char(Double 
> quote)+$SourceFile+Char(Double quote)+" "+Char(Double 
> quote)+$ZipFile+Char(Double quote);$in;$out;$err)




Compass bvba
Koen Van Hooreweghe
Kloosterstraat 65
9910 Knesselare
Belgium
tel +32 495 511.653

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Re: 4D Summit 2018 Comments

[Douglas Cryer via 4D_Tech]

I am very excited about ORDA.  Hopefully it will help to attract more young 
developers.

I am however somewhat cautious about the potential GOTCHAS that will 
undoubtedly come out from using it.  A few early examples:
I find the having to restart the server if an entity or property (table or 
field) name is changed very un 4D like.  This could be a real pain in team 
development on server.
The entity and property names are not tokenised so to avoid breaking code we 
will have to use Table name and Field name then use the result.
To use ORDA on a table or field you must have the “Expose with 4D Mobile 
Service” checkbox ticked on any table or field you need to use it on.  Not sure 
if that is intended but it is how it currently works :-(
Regards,  Dougie


telekinetix Limited- J. Douglas Cryer
Phone : 01234 761759  Mobile : 07973 675 218
2nd Floor Broadway House, 4-6 The Broadway, Bedford MK40 2TE
Email : jdcr...@telekinetix.com   Web : 
http://www.telekinetix.com 


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Re: 4D Summit 2018 Comments

[JPR via 4D_Tech]

[JPR]

Hi Tim,

> JPR does monitor the list, maybe he knows more about this and could comment. 
Yes Tim, this is true, I do monitor this list. 

So do not hesitate to put 'JPR' in your message when you have questions still 
pending after some weeks of reflexion... When I don't have the answer, I have a 
reference on the answer...

> SQL views are super powerful, but they are so “old school”.
This is true. It has the smell of the Proust's madeleine, it reminds me of my 
old VT100 console ;-)

More seriously, here are some answers:

- SQL is not going to be killed in 4D, at least for a long long time.

- This is true that ORDA replaces SQL in many places like accessing data 
without changing the current selection, or performing complex JOINs. In most of 
the cases (and specially in about 100% of the cases I have personally seen) SQL 
can be replaced by ORDA and the result is a huge improvement of performances.

- But we know also that a lot of developers are more familiar with SQL syntax, 
that a huge number of SQL examples are available on the net, and other good 
reasons like 'If it works, don't touch it'. 

- There is still a big need to access to SQL databases from 4D, and until ORDA 
will give you these access under the Datastore concept, SQL will still be 
needed.

> I’m not sure exactly how the custom data classes will work or be implemented 
> in 4D. 
I'm not sure neither, but I've used Wakanda...

> naming relations is needed to take make the code readable.
Laurent's suggestion is to export the structure in XML, modify all the relation 
names in the text file, and reimport the structure as XML. It will be faster 
than to go across the complete graphical structure representation.

> The iOS app will download data from 4D Server and put it into a local store 
> on the iPhone. You can browse the data but not change it
Oh developers of little faith! Don't you remember that this is not even the 
version 1.0...

> Yes, using for/in (for/each? can’t remember) will be nice, when we have 
> Entities and maybe even custom classes we can define. It would have been nice 
> to have a variation that iterates through the keys/values when C_OBJECT was 
> added to the language. 
Yes it would have been nice! And it would have been tremendously nice to get 
ORDA in early 90s! Just kidding...

I'm as impatient as you are to get much more right now or even yesterday, but 
good things take time...

> It’s nice to finally see progress, but it’s sad that 25 years ago, 4D was 5 
> years ahead of most other options, and now it is 10-15 years behind.
I'm not sure 4D is 10-15 years behind. 
First of all, 4D is still here and evolving fast, while I cannot make a list of 
products existing 10-15 years behind, and still existing today.
Then, what means 10-15 years behind ? Behind what ? How many technologies have 
we seen since 1984, which have just vanished in the oblivion 10 years after? 
How many time did I heard that "JQuery is the future" or "Java will scrap all 
other languages" or "No responsive without Bootstrap" or "Javascript has no 
future, for Microsoft doesn't like it" and thousand other predictions like this?

Personally, I prefer a slower introduction of a new language, keeping the 
compatibility at its higher level, than rapid changes like Angular, which 
obliges you to rewrite a lot of code between each new version.

Predictions are difficult, especially when they concern the future...

I just hope that you liked what you have seen, and I would like to thank all 
the attendees to this first new training for their flawless attention and their 
patience regarding the inevitable mistakes of a beta-version training on a 
beta-version product...

My very best,

JPR

> On 9 Apr 2018, at 23:35, 4d_tech-requ...@lists.4d.com wrote:
> 
> From: Tim Nevels 
> To: 4d_tech@lists.4d.com
> Subject: Re: 4D Summit 2018 Comments
> Message-ID: <9e4a63d9-8f46-4817-9d98-c17216bef...@mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> On Apr 9, 2018, at 5:52 PM, Richard Wright wrote:
> 
>> I’ll be interested in learning how this differs from Views, not necessarily 
>> 4D’s rather simplistic implementation, but something like Oracle’s, along 
>> with their very powerful SQL implementation.
> 
> 
> Hi Rich,
> 
> It might be possible in the future to create custom data classes that would 
> act like SQL views. I’m not sure exactly how the custom data classes will 
> work or be implemented in 4D. 
> 
> For now ORDA provides complete access to everything in the database. All 
> tables and all fields. But accessing data in related tables is now “hidden” 
> behind named relations. That is where using ORDA has the biggest impact.
> 
> For several versions now the property palette for relations in the structure 
> editor has a place to assign a name to a relation. Doubtful that anyone is 
> using this property since you currently can’t do anything with it in 4D. 
> Maybe it is useful using 4D Mobile, I don’t know. But now with ORDA, nam