Re: Help->v11 to v17 Upgrade or New?
It was Dani! Yeah, 4D is awesome at this stuff. We get upgrades old, old versions all the time and our current structure just opens these old data files, and 4d does its magic to uid them, unicode them, de'subtable them. no problem. > On Oct 18, 2018, at 2:19 PM, Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech > <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote: > > Okay, I can’t find it now but someone said, "hey pop it into v17 and see if > it works…" or something like that. Well, I did just that and without any > changes it compiled (after toggling unicode on) and I created a built server > and client and ran a few tests. Yes, as I recall, I did fix all of the syntax > errors years ago. It seems to work for the most part (PICT icons and images > do not show and a couple of fields cannot be used for data entry, I’m sure > that’s an easy fix). I’m surprised this works at all! So, there are more than > 700 lines of code with the deprecated “_o_” prefix. Perhaps I could make a > lot of that go away via Search/Replace (a feature that I normally don’t use). > > Thanks to all of you that have contributed. It looks like I can get this > running as it did before via v17 so that it can run on their new hardware > running the latest Windows server and Win10 clients…. Of course they want > this yesterday, so I could deliver the converted one and then upgrade > incrementally. Yes, it does look ugly as f*ck but sadly no one is complaining > about that. > > Thanks, > > Robert > >> On Oct 17, 2018, at 3:11 PM, Spencer Hinsdale via 4D_Tech >> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote: >> >> 4D automatically converts Subtables. This should not be a problem. > > ** > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) > Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html > Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech > Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com > ** ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Help->v11 to v17 Upgrade or New?
Okay, I can’t find it now but someone said, "hey pop it into v17 and see if it works…" or something like that. Well, I did just that and without any changes it compiled (after toggling unicode on) and I created a built server and client and ran a few tests. Yes, as I recall, I did fix all of the syntax errors years ago. It seems to work for the most part (PICT icons and images do not show and a couple of fields cannot be used for data entry, I’m sure that’s an easy fix). I’m surprised this works at all! So, there are more than 700 lines of code with the deprecated “_o_” prefix. Perhaps I could make a lot of that go away via Search/Replace (a feature that I normally don’t use). Thanks to all of you that have contributed. It looks like I can get this running as it did before via v17 so that it can run on their new hardware running the latest Windows server and Win10 clients…. Of course they want this yesterday, so I could deliver the converted one and then upgrade incrementally. Yes, it does look ugly as f*ck but sadly no one is complaining about that. Thanks, Robert > On Oct 17, 2018, at 3:11 PM, Spencer Hinsdale via 4D_Tech > <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote: > > 4D automatically converts Subtables. This should not be a problem. ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Elementary question
I think the command you are looking for is the MKLINK command, it does require special permissions for some uses, but for components and plugins you can use the /J switch to symbolically link the folders. 4D Tech mailing list wrote > In house. Does it matter? > > Jeremy > > On 13 Oct 2018, 17:00 +0100, Pat Bensky via 4D_Tech < > 4d_tech@.4d >>, wrote: >> Is it an in-house solution or deployed? >> PB >> >> On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 at 12:01, Jeremy Roussak via 4D_Tech < >> > 4d_tech@.4d >> wrote: >> >> > I usually work on a Mac. I have to develop one application in 4D on a >> > Windows machine. It’s already up and working on the Mac. >> > >> > On my Mac, I can put aliases to a few of my components, which I use >> > frequently, in the Components folder of the 4D application. They’re >> then >> > available to any 4D project I’m working on. >> > >> > Is there an equivalent under Windows? I’ve tried creating shortcuts and >> > putting them in the Components folder next to the 4D application, but >> 4D >> > doesn’t see them or the methods they contain. >> > >> > 4Dv17, Windows 8.1 (under VirtualBox on the Mac, in case it makes any >> > difference). >> > >> > Thanks in advance >> > >> > Jeremy >> > ** >> > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) >> > Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html >> > Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech >> > Unsub: mailto: > 4D_Tech-Unsubscribe@.4D >> > ** >> >> >> >> -- >> * >> CatBase - Top Dog in Data Publishing >> tel: +44 (0) 207 118 7889 >> w: http://www.catbase.com >> skype: pat.bensky >> * >> ** >> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) >> Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html >> Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech >> Unsub: mailto: > 4D_Tech-Unsubscribe@.4D >> ** > ** > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) > Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html > Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech > Unsub: mailto: > 4D_Tech-Unsubscribe@.4D > ** -- Sent from: http://4d.1045681.n5.nabble.com/4D-Tech-f1376241.html ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Scope of entity selection
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 2:30 PM Christian Sakowski < christian.sakow...@heubach-media.de> wrote: > > > I did not find a way how to do a shared collection from selection, > > You don’t need this. Just pass the object into the process. The object will be copied. > If you have performance problems, please let me know your benchmarks. My testing data have now 15 record, so it will take a while. > > > > creates unordered selection, so order is lost. ds.Table.fromCollection may do that, but at a cost of significant overhead. > > Yes indeed. > > I create an ordered selection from a collection by doing this: > > ARRAY LONGINT($ids;0) > COLLECTION TO ARRAY($collection;$ids) > > QUERY WITH ARRAY([table]ID;$ids) > ORDER BY FORMULA([table];Find in array($ids;[table]ID)) > Following code seems to work: $selection:=ds.Table.newSelection(dk keep ordered) For each ($id;$collection) $selection.add(ds.Table.get($id)) End for each -- Peter Bozek ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Scope of entity selection
Christian, I *think* that the intent was to pass an ordered collection from process to process. i.e. - process 1 order the data in whatever manner is desired. - pass the collection from process 1 to process 2 - process 2 receive the ordered collection and do stuff with it, in the order in which it was passed -- without -- having to know the specifics of the ordering. All of that said... and me with NO use of collections or objects (I'm still in v13) could you: - create your collection - add a property to the collection which defines the desired ordering - pass collection to secondary process - use the collection's 'order' property to order the collection as desired. it does not 'pass an ordered collection', but it comes close; and would allow a generic routine on the receiving end to execute the ordering. Chip On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 14:30:43 +0200, Christian Sakowski via 4D_Tech wrote: > > I create an ordered selection from a collection by doing this: > > ARRAY LONGINT($ids;0) > COLLECTION TO ARRAY($collection;$ids) > > QUERY WITH ARRAY([table]ID;$ids) > ORDER BY FORMULA([table];Find in array($ids;[table]ID)) > --- Gas is for washing parts Alcohol is for drinkin' Nitromethane is for racing ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Scope of entity selection
> I did not find a way how to do a shared collection from selection,
You don’t need this. Just pass the object into the process. The object will be
copied.
If you have performance problems, please let me know your benchmarks.
> creates unordered selection, so order is lost. ds.Table.fromCollection may do
> that, but at a cost of significant overhead.
Yes indeed.
I create an ordered selection from a collection by doing this:
ARRAY LONGINT($ids;0)
COLLECTION TO ARRAY($collection;$ids)
QUERY WITH ARRAY([table]ID;$ids)
ORDER BY FORMULA([table];Find in array($ids;[table]ID))
--
Grüße/Regards,
[heubach-media] | Christian Sakowski
christian.sakow...@heubach-media.de
Tel: +49/(0)40/52 10 59-23
> Am 18.10.2018 um 14:14 schrieb Peter Bozek :
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 10:29 PM Christian Sakowski via 4D_Tech
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > like:
> > $object.myIDs:=$entitySelection.toCollection("ID“).extract(„ID“)
> > new process(…;$object)
> >
> > and in the new process just create the new entity selection:
> >
> > ds.Table.query(„ID IN :1“;$object.myIDs)
>
>
> I tried simpler (but I believe identical) solution:
>
> $collection:=$selection.ID
> $err:=New process("aaExecuteProcess";0;"test";$collection)
> ... in the process
>
> $selection:=ds.Table.query("ID IN :1";$collection)
>
> There are several problems with it: first, I did not find a way how to do a
> shared collection from selection, there is no "New shared collection form
> selection". So passing collection to another process probably copies the
> collection (I could not find in in documentation.) But more serious problem
> for me is there is no way how to pass ordered selection - line
>
> $selection:=ds.Table.query("ID IN :1";$collection)
>
> creates unordered selection, so order is lost. ds.Table.fromCollection may do
> that, but at a cost of significant overhead.
>
> So, it seems ORDA is nice, but for more advanced functionality, named
> selections are way to go.
>
> >
> > >> I am trying to do something like global named selection. Examples that,
> > >> say, pass selections to workers pass a condition to build a selection.
> > >> This
> > >> seems to restricting.
> > >>
> > >> Am I overlooking something obvious?
>
>
> --
>
> Peter Bozek
--
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Re: Scope of entity selection
On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 10:29 PM Christian Sakowski via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
>
>
> like:
> $object.myIDs:=$entitySelection.toCollection("ID“).extract(„ID“)
> new process(…;$object)
>
> and in the new process just create the new entity selection:
>
> ds.Table.query(„ID IN :1“;$object.myIDs)
I tried simpler (but I believe identical) solution:
$collection:=$selection.ID
$err:=New process("aaExecuteProcess";0;"test";$collection)
... in the process
$selection:=ds.Table.query("ID IN :1";$collection)
There are several problems with it: first, I did not find a way how to do a
shared collection from selection, there is no "New shared collection form
selection". So passing collection to another process probably copies the
collection (I could not find in in documentation.) But more serious problem
for me is there is no way how to pass ordered selection - line
$selection:=ds.Table.query("ID IN :1";$collection)
creates unordered selection, so order is lost. ds.Table.fromCollection may
do that, but at a cost of significant overhead.
So, it seems ORDA is nice, but for more advanced functionality, named
selections are way to go.
>
> >> I am trying to do something like global named selection. Examples that,
> >> say, pass selections to workers pass a condition to build a selection.
This
> >> seems to restricting.
> >>
> >> Am I overlooking something obvious?
--
Peter Bozek
**
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Write Pro Toolbar
Hi all, Write Pro seems OK for migration, so I try to convert my Write documents to WP. Conversion is OK* with : $MyBlobWrite_x:=WR Area to blob(MyAreaWrite;1) [MyTable]MyWPObject:=WP New($MyBlobWrite_x) I have put WP object with new toolbar in my form, from object library ; every seems OK but, when I click on any icon of the toolbar, wheel of death appears for at least one minute. Do you use the new toolbar ? Has somebody the same issue ? Best regards Bernard Escaich * small issue : footer is missing ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Help->v11 to v17 Upgrade or New?
Robert, I am just taking on a project for a similar situation: v11 to v17. I haven't had a chance to really dive into the code yet so I'm not really sure what's there but at this point the client's intention is to essentially keep the database on 'palliative care' for the next 1 to 2 years when they migrate to another platform. Given their needs at the moment a re-write isn't in the cards. In another project, one I started in v6 and maintained for the past 15 years, I have performed two 'greenfield' re-writes. The first was going from v6 -> v2004, the second v2004 -> v13. In both cases the re-write was necessary to correct structural design issues. This project grew in scope quite a bit and changing the basic data structure made it easier to continue to grow as well as leverage 4D's new capabilities. Looking back they were the right decisions at the time but especially the second migration was a lot of work. And in both cases the data had to be dumped from the old structure and imported into the new one with different levels of transformation required. This is not a bad thing. Especially in bespoke projects the data can become munged up with structure, interface elements and this is never a good thing. It's always a result of some momentary expediency and over time becomes increasingly detrimental. You know the question we are talking about here is what's called 'technical debt' and there are a ton of things written about it. I've been reading a few of them lately as well as talking with other developers about it. 4D is particularly ripe for these discussions because of the backward compatibility it has so rigorously embraced. The fact there are still so many critical systems running geriatric versions of 4D proves this point. The final straw that's moving the client I mentioned to act is the system has been running on a single computer for years, the person who wrote it has retired and the computer, the hardware, is showing signs of failing and no one in the organization knows how to deal with 4D. This isn't an unusual story in 4D land. So now we come to the business question - can you just keep it working for another year or two? For better or worse the answer is yes. I don't know what I'm going to tell them it will cost to do that yet but it's certainly a fraction of what I'd quote for a rewrite. Is that a good thing overall? Schmaybe. As a business principle would 4D loose some clients if there were limits on the perpetual backward compatibility. On the other hand we wouldn't be seeing v17 databases running code so old you just need a black background and a gold colored, pixelated font to believe you're working on an old VT100. It's hard to convincingly talk about how modern 4D is when you're looking at that on the screen. Bottom line - a re-write is a hard sell. It's a hard sell in any case but especially for 4D precisely because we've been around so long the perception (Perception) is the technology is old. It's not but the IT guys sitting in the room who only know about it as this PITA system they don't understand and can't get rid of are not going to embrace it. What we, developers, can do is be more like 4D. Like v17 4D. ORDA is essentially a new programming language within the 4D shell. (I know there are some strong voices saying this isn't true. Flame on.) I didn't think such a thing was possible or that I would ever see it. I was wrong about that and I'm delighted. The old bones of 4D are still there and available but there are new options as well. I suggest this is the model we can extend to modernizing old projects. Namely, instead of staking out large swaths of green fields and building from scratch (think Albuquerque) move the existing tables over to the right and build on top of what you've got (think Rome). I tend to start with the overall approach to displaying data. The existing project probably uses a lot of MODIFY SELECTION and MODIFY RECORD. This was fabulous in the day but you can do better now. So do it. Structural issues can be identified, solutions developed, tables added and the relevant data migrated within the current structure. There are some real benefits to this approach not the least of which being if something goes sideways you can roll back to the old data by rolling back the structure. There is plenty of time to purge the datafile once you have certainty the new approach works. It is important to clear the old data AND the obsolete code. This second point is really important because if you don't periodically identify and remove obsolete code then this "build on top" approach spirals into unmanageability. Or at least a structure where you may have a few thousand methods but only a few hundred actually are used. The point is we can modernize and migrate a mature app on top of the old structure. This allows us to make incremental changes, particularly in the user interface, that can revive a project. On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 12:45 PM Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech
Re: Help->v11 to v17 Upgrade or New?
> Le 17 oct. 2018 à 21:45, Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> a > écrit : > > [...] > > Also, the client originally said the new database would not have to migrate > data forward from the old system and now they are wanting to have the data > too. Most of the I write the new application in the old one when existing data must be recovered. I can for example keep correctly designed tables, create a table to replace a subtable and pour records from subtable in it, avoid the export/import nightmare from different structures, etc. The old stuff (tables, forms, etc.) will be deleted after the new app is released. -- Arnaud de Montard ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
RE: Help->v11 to v17 Upgrade or New?
If in doubt I would vote for a rewrite, even more if the old application is poor designed. We struggle from time to time with problems caused by using legacy 4D code. E.g. sometimes there were assumptions made in the past regarding performance they are nowadays simply wrong and are causing now performance problems even more. And new code written by yourself you are able to understand. You can use your conventions and rules of developing. In my experience old code is usually poor or wrong commented and often because of its complexity there is some effort to understand and fix it. But if you are quite sure you have to move the whole thing to a new version only and you don't have to touch it anymore in the future, so you can migrate it only. But these assumptions are wrong in the most cases, this is at least my experience. So IMHO it's better to bite the bullet and build a new one from scratch. Only my 2 cents ... Regards -- Lutz Epperlein -- Agendo Gesellschaft für politische Planung mbH Köpenicker Str. 9 10997 Berlin http://www.agendo.de/ -- ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
