Re: V18 plugins not showing as Notarized?
I’ve found that you also have to be careful when copying your development structure from 1 machine to another. When you copy or unzip a version on the Catalina machine, it invalidates the notarization of the plugins and you get the alerts when opening the database that the plugins are damaged. They’re not. You then have to go to System Preferences > Security & Privacy > General to use the “Blah blah anyway” button. Multiple times if you have several plugins with the issue. As a result I have a folder on the desktop of my Catalina testing machine where all the plugins are noticed in case I forget again. I found I have to use Miyako’s buildApp database to codesign each plugin.bundle when this happens. Randy -- Randy Jaynes Senior Programmer and Customer Support http://printpoint.com • 845.687.3741 • PrintPoint, Inc • 57 Ludlow Lane • Palisades, NY 10964 Please send all email contacts to supp...@printpoint.com > On May 1, 2020, at 1:06 AM, Ronald Rosell via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> > wrote: > > I knew it would be something simple. I’d actually completely forgotten that > 4D InternetCommands is included in the 4D application package … I’ve > generally had a copy in the database folder -> Plugins when compiling. > > I just took that latter copy out, relaunched, and problem solved! Thank you > Miyako! > > Ron Rosell > __ > > Ron Rosell > President > StreamLMS > >> On Apr 30, 2020, at 9:29 PM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech >> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote: >> >> only the plugins pre-installed with the application (inside 4D or 4D Server) >> are notarised. >> >> the folder adjacent to the application are copies for distribution and >> therefore not code signed at all. >> >>> On May 1, 2020, at 12:00, Ronald Rosell via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> >>> wrote: >>> Executing codesign --verify -- verbose against 4D InternetCommands.bundle, >>> for example, brings back: >>> /Applications/4D v18.1/Plugins/4D InternetCommands.bundle: code object >>> is not signed at all >> >> ** >> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) >> Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html >> Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech >> Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com >> ** > > ** > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) > Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html > Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech > Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com > ** ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Object notation replacement for use of Self in a script — v18
Here is an idea which seems to work, but needs more evaluation. What if you named the form object with the property path in the form data? Even if periods are not allowed (they seem to be), another character could be used. I think the maximum length of an object name is 255 characters which should be plenty. Here is an example. I created a form with one in input and the object method below. The form object name is "some.property.path" and the expression is Form.some.property.path. Case of : (Form event code=On Load) Form.some:=New object Form.some.property:=New object Form.some.property.path:="TEST 123" : (Form event code=On Data Change) C_TEXT($name) C_COLLECTION($cPath) C_OBJECT($object) $name:=OBJECT Get name(Object current) $cPath:=Split string($name;".") $object:=Form For each ($name;$cPath.slice(0;-1)) //All except last element to get the object. $object:=$object[$name] End for each $name:=$cPath.pop() $object[$name]:=Uppercase($object[$name]) End case John DeSoi, Ph.D. > On Apr 30, 2020, at 7:53 PM, Peter Hay via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> > wrote: > > What we really need is a way to access a Form Object's "Variable or > Expression". There's a Command named "Object Get Data Source" which was > added in v14, but it only returns a Pointer if "Variable or Expression" is > a Variable. If it's an Expression it returns Nil. ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Object notation replacement for use of Self in a script — v18
On May 1, 2020, at 10:07 AM, John DeSoi via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote: > Here is an idea which seems to work, but needs more evaluation. What if you > named the form object with the property path in the form data? Even if > periods are not allowed (they seem to be), another character could be used. I > think the maximum length of an object name is 255 characters which should be > plenty. The problem with this approach, as others have mentioned, is that you can no longer use object name prefixes to show/hide/enable/etc groups of form objects. On Apr 30, 2020, at 7:53 PM, Peter Hay via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote: > > What we really need is a way to access a Form Object's "Variable or > Expression". There's a Command named "Object Get Data Source" which was > added in v14, but it only returns a Pointer if "Variable or Expression" is > a Variable. If it's an Expression it returns Nil. Yes, and it’s likely it will be added eventually. I mean we got a built-in string split command in v17, so it’s never too late! For the foreseeable future, there is no way to get a pointer to an object attribute and you can’t work with the form object value directly. In Laurent’s 2020 Summit presentation on classes (Entity extensions), he showed setting up a “virtual attribute” with custom getter/setter methods. I assume you will be able to set up custom getter/setter methods for datastore attributes as well, so when you are able to use that functionality (v18R?), you will be able to specify that logic in the Entity class extension and not the form. Realistically, if you want to be “all-in” on ORDA, you’ll want to use the 4D v18R? release that supports classes, DataClass and Entity extensions as soon as it’s available. Currently you spend much of your time working around the lack of those things. Jim Crate ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Object notation replacement for use of Self in a script — v18
Jim, On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 11:14 AM James Crate via 4D_Tech < 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote: > The problem with this approach, as others have mentioned, is that you can > no longer use object name prefixes to show/hide/enable/etc groups of form > objects. > Why do you say that? In v18R2 I'm using: *OBJECT SET ENABLED*(*;"btn_setDoc";*Form*.files_LB.curItem#*Null*) // enable when file is selected *OBJECT SET VISIBLE*(*;"btn_setDoc";*Form*.files_LB.curItem#*Null*) I added the set visible just to verify if works. It does. I also have an input which displays an object named "Input2" and this works on it as well. And I have forms using things like: *OBJECT SET VISIBLE*(*;"btn_nav@";*Form*.files_LB.curItem#*Null*) Am I missing something? -- Kirk Brooks San Francisco, CA == ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Object notation replacement for use of Self in a script — v18
On May 1, 2020, at 2:23 PM, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote: > > On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 11:14 AM James Crate via 4D_Tech < > 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote: > >> The problem with this approach, as others have mentioned, is that you can >> no longer use object name prefixes to show/hide/enable/etc groups of form >> objects. >> > > Why do you say that? John was talking about using the form expression as the form object name. > Here is an example. I created a form with one in input and the object method > below. The form object name is "some.property.path" and the expression is > Form.some.property.path. Suppose you have a section on the form with labels/fields for payment info. You have a popup with payment type, and fields for credit card, ACH (bank name/acct number), check, cash. When you choose a payment type, you want to show the labels/fields for that payment type, and hide any other payment labels/fields. If you thought far enough ahead to name all your payment fields correctly, maybe you can make it work. But if your fields aren’t already prefixed properly so you can do this with wildcards, then you have a lot more messing around to do. Jim Crate ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
signal problem
4D v18.1, Mac Mojave I think I’m following the documentation of signals to the letter, but it’s not happening. Main process: C_OBJECT($signal) C_BOOLEAN($done) $signal:=New signal(“fred”) CALL WORKER(“Show”;”Show”;$signal) $done:=$signal.wait(5) - Method “Show” C_OBJECT($1;$signal) $signal:=$1 OPEN FORM WINDOW(…) $signal.trigger() DIALOG(…) —— The calling process always times out, with $done false. I’m obviously missing something very basic, but I can’t see it. Help! Jeremy ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Object notation replacement for use of Self in a script — v18
Chris, On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 10:53 PM Chris Belanger via 4D_Tech < 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote: > Generic programming of vars on a form is very complicated when one uses > object attributes for the data source. > > For example, on screen you make a simple text input object named > “enCompany”. It’s data source is Form.en_Company.Name ( i.e. > [Company]Name ) > In ‘classic 4d”, where the data source would be [Company]Name, one can > code its script: > TRIM ( Self ) And TRIM would simply take a POINTER, and you can perform operations on the > data that the user typed into that field. (Such as trim off leading & > trailing spaces). > So what does Self actually point to? The object on the form the field is displayed in or the actual field in the database? The two are not the same thing. In classic 4D that distinction is never really apparent to us. It didn't need to be and we didn't want to have to deal with it. It was part of the how we perceived working with 4D: a field on a form _was_ the data. It's also why 4D forms from ages past are so overloaded with data processing being done on the form itself instead of separated into more independent modules. IP and process vars enabled that trend even more. This is a main reason opening up one of these old databases in v18 and attempting to change something is so fraught. But I digress. With modern 4D tools you just don't do things that way anymore. Working with ORDA I rarely find a pointer a good solution to anything except managing form objects like buttons. We are saddled with some unfortunate nomenclature here because a 'form object' has nothing to do with an object in Form. 'Form objects' are those named widgets on the form. They _may_ be populated with data from something in Form, or a variable, or a list box and so on. A big conceptual difference between classic 4D and modern 4D is the distinction between a form object and the data it presents is explicit. So when I set the data source for an input object to be Form.myEntity_o.Name where myEntity_o is a reference to an entity in Company the actual data and the form object are no longer implicitly the same thing like they are in classic 4D. I have a reference to the entity and I have a form object. They are two different things. I can't get a pointer to the form object in this case. Why not? First, what do I want to do with it? If I want to manage the form object itself, visibility, enterability, etc., I don't need a pointer, I can just use the object name. If I want to do something with the data, as you do, the pointer won't work because there are no pointers to object references. Why not? I'm sure there are technical reasons but they don't matter to me because you don't need it. You don't need it because you have a reference: myEntity_o. If you want to change the data you do that with the reference - not through whatever that data happens to be displayed in. This is a fundamental, conceptual difference between using ORDA and classic 4D. In classic 4D we have tables, records, fields and pointers to reference them. In ORDA we have datastores, dataclasses, entities, properties and we use references. In the example of the name field you can still put code in the form object to react to On Data Change. And you can still pass data to a generic method to manage it. Two ideas come to mind: 1) method takes an entity // myMethod1 (entity) // $1 is a Company entity - check the name, address, etc. for proper formatting 2) method is a function Form.myEntity_o.Name:=myMethod2(Form.myEntity_o.Name) Is the form you are working with an existing form or one you created from scratch? I find it much easier to use the new approaches on new forms. If not by totally rewriting them then by separating out the new work into a subform. That lets me design the form using a modern approach without having to do too much to the old one. I said this someplace else recently and it applies here: just because 4D (still) provides some tools for doing things doesn't mean it's a good tool to use. For instance, would anyone make a new form and use DRAG AND DROP PROPERTIES? ORDA isn't an evolutionary step in 4D - it's a revolutionary step. It really is like learning a new language. 18r3 is that way for sure. I had time to begin updating my old 4D coding ideas starting a couple of years ago. It wasn't easy and it made me feel old. But I kept at it. And it became a lot easier and them fun. Now I'm amazed at things I can do simply by setting up the data structure. Another big difference for me in this. Taking time to get the structure right is time well spent. -- Kirk Brooks San Francisco, CA == ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com *
Re: V18 plugins not showing as Notarized?
Thanks Randy, In our particular case that problem doesn’t appear arise, perhaps since we’re not distributing a built application with unlimited desktop, we’re running something in-house on 4D Server. I did notice that the package contents -> Plugins folder for 4D Server (8.1) didn’t have the 4d internetcommands plugin in the distribution, whereas it was there for 4D Developer. (That may have been corrected in 8.2). Simply copying 4d internetcommands.bundle from one to the other, however, did the trick … Catalina seemed happy with that. __ Ron Rosell President StreamLMS > On May 1, 2020, at 5:02 AM, Randy Jaynes wrote: > > I’ve found that you also have to be careful when copying your development > structure from 1 machine to another. > > When you copy or unzip a version on the Catalina machine, it invalidates the > notarization of the plugins and you get the alerts when opening the database > that the plugins are damaged. > > They’re not. > > You then have to go to System Preferences > Security & Privacy > General to > use the “Blah blah anyway” button. Multiple times if you have several plugins > with the issue. > > As a result I have a folder on the desktop of my Catalina testing machine > where all the plugins are noticed in case I forget again. > > I found I have to use Miyako’s buildApp database to codesign each > plugin.bundle when this happens. > > Randy > ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Object notation replacement for use of Self in a script — v18
Jim, On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 11:53 AM James Crate via 4D_Tech < 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote: > Suppose you have a section on the form with labels/fields for payment > info. You have a popup with payment type, and fields for credit card, ACH > (bank name/acct number), check, cash. When you choose a payment type, you > want to show the labels/fields for that payment type, and hide any other > payment labels/fields. If you thought far enough ahead to name all your > payment fields correctly, maybe you can make it work. But if your fields > aren’t already prefixed properly so you can do this with wildcards, then > you have a lot more messing around to do. > I have not had any great joy attempting to use pop-ups with object references. Haven't tried in v18 so maybe it's improved. So, yeah - that probably sucks. For these sorts of things I build a menu on the fly and call it from a button or click event on the field. I really like being able to easily set the placeholder text on fields like that. The problem with pop ups/dropdowns is there is all sorts of implicit data binding that 4D just handles in classic but isn't (at least wasn't) there for working with Form and references. But with respect to changing the names of a few form objects why is that a deal? The form objects can be named anything - doesn't matter what the field names are. Unless you are trying to update an existing form. My experience here is to put whatever I want to do in ORDA into a separate form and get it working the way I want. Then put that on the existing form as a subform. If you make the subform form object an object type (jeesh the nomenclature) it's a pretty seamless addition. -- Kirk Brooks San Francisco, CA == ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Object notation replacement for use of Self in a script — v18
Tim Nevels wrote: >if you want to use entities or use collections AreaList Pro is out of the >picture. As posted on e-node’s forum two weeks ago: “ALP v11 will definitely support entity selections and collections. Mostly it seems to already work in ALP 11.0a5" It may not do everything you want in the first version, but don’t worry - only babies don’t understand they can’t have everything immediately. Regards, Ben Kershaw ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Object notation replacement for use of Self in a script
>> Another WTF is that you can’t iterate from the end of a collection to the >> start. You can reorder the collection and then run a For each loop but >> that’s a complete kludge. Don’t be so quick to complain; you finally got ‘for each’ 10 years after the rest of the world (including Active4D). I don’t know of a single language (and I have used at least 6) where ‘for each’ is reversible. Indexed loops haven’t gone away and have their uses. ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
RE: Object notation replacement for use of Self in a script — v18
Kirk, I have one word that will do all of what we are after : "This" It works in listbox, which is a form object, any reason it can't be extended to other form objects? Again, I don't think anyone on this thread is complaining, we are just trying to understand how to use the new functionality to do what we need to. We need to interact with the users through some entry areas, call it objects, fields, variables. Whatever. And sometimes do silly things like verification of values, formatting to a certain standard etc.From everything that was presented so far, there is no way to utilize the new methodology (call it ORDA, dot notation whatever) as a data source of an entry area without using some part of classic 4D. Coming up with all sorts of workarounds is fine, but it is still a workaround. Cheers, will probably see you later today. Lahav -Original Message- From: 4D_Tech <4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com> On Behalf Of Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech Sent: Friday, May 1, 2020 1:21 PM To: 4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> Cc: Kirk Brooks Subject: Re: Object notation replacement for use of Self in a script — v18 Chris, On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 10:53 PM Chris Belanger via 4D_Tech < 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote: > Generic programming of vars on a form is very complicated when one > uses object attributes for the data source. > > For example, on screen you make a simple text input object named > “enCompany”. It’s data source is Form.en_Company.Name ( i.e. > [Company]Name ) > In ‘classic 4d”, where the data source would be [Company]Name, one can > code its script: > TRIM ( Self ) And TRIM would simply take a POINTER, and you can perform operations on the > data that the user typed into that field. (Such as trim off leading & > trailing spaces). > So what does Self actually point to? The object on the form the field is displayed in or the actual field in the database? The two are not the same thing. In classic 4D that distinction is never really apparent to us. It didn't need to be and we didn't want to have to deal with it. It was part of the how we perceived working with 4D: a field on a form _was_ the data. It's also why 4D forms from ages past are so overloaded with data processing being done on the form itself instead of separated into more independent modules. IP and process vars enabled that trend even more. This is a main reason opening up one of these old databases in v18 and attempting to change something is so fraught. But I digress. With modern 4D tools you just don't do things that way anymore. Working with ORDA I rarely find a pointer a good solution to anything except managing form objects like buttons. We are saddled with some unfortunate nomenclature here because a 'form object' has nothing to do with an object in Form. 'Form objects' are those named widgets on the form. They _may_ be populated with data from something in Form, or a variable, or a list box and so on. A big conceptual difference between classic 4D and modern 4D is the distinction between a form object and the data it presents is explicit. So when I set the data source for an input object to be Form.myEntity_o.Name where myEntity_o is a reference to an entity in Company the actual data and the form object are no longer implicitly the same thing like they are in classic 4D. I have a reference to the entity and I have a form object. They are two different things. I can't get a pointer to the form object in this case. Why not? First, what do I want to do with it? If I want to manage the form object itself, visibility, enterability, etc., I don't need a pointer, I can just use the object name. If I want to do something with the data, as you do, the pointer won't work because there are no pointers to object references. Why not? I'm sure there are technical reasons but they don't matter to me because you don't need it. You don't need it because you have a reference: myEntity_o. If you want to change the data you do that with the reference - not through whatever that data happens to be displayed in. This is a fundamental, conceptual difference between using ORDA and classic 4D. In classic 4D we have tables, records, fields and pointers to reference them. In ORDA we have datastores, dataclasses, entities, properties and we use references. In the example of the name field you can still put code in the form object to react to On Data Change. And you can still pass data to a generic method to manage it. Two ideas come to mind: 1) method takes an entity // myMethod1 (entity) // $1 is a Company entity - check the name, address, etc. for proper formatting 2) method is a function Form.myEntity_o.Name:=myMethod2(Form.myEntity_o.Name) Is the form you are working with an existing form or one you created from scratch? I find it much easier to use the new approaches on new forms. If not by totally rewriting them then by separating out the new work into a subform. That
Re: Object notation replacement for use of Self in a script
Aparajita: "Don’t be so quick to complain; you finally got ‘for each’ 10 years after the rest of the world (including Active4D).” Good point. So…you’re thinking that the feature set is complete? "I don’t know of a single language (and I have used at least 6) where ‘for each’ is reversible.” This could be 4D’s chance to be a trendsetter! "Indexed loops haven’t gone away and have their uses.” No doubt. I have to use them often when working with collections. Frankly, it’s funny that we have such a handy looping construct yet I have write code to init and update my own index. How about using “++" to increment? -- Douglas von Roeder 949-910-4084 On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 1:32 PM Aparajita Fishman via 4D_Tech < 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote: > > >> Another WTF is that you can’t iterate from the end of a collection to > the > >> start. You can reorder the collection and then run a For each loop but > >> that’s a complete kludge. > > Don’t be so quick to complain; you finally got ‘for each’ 10 years after > the rest of the world (including Active4D). I don’t know of a single > language (and I have used at least 6) where ‘for each’ is reversible. > Indexed loops haven’t gone away and have their uses. > ** > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) > Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html > Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech > Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com > ** ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Object notation replacement for use of Self in a script — v18
Lahav, On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 1:51 PM lists via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote: > I have one word that will do all of what we are after : "This" > Damn - I wish I'd said that. > Again, I don't think anyone on this thread is complaining, we are just > trying to understand how to use the new functionality to do what we need to. > I don't either. I probably overthink things like this or project my own experience on it too much with the focus on the conceptual stuff. But I read a lot of posts here and on the Forum and the common thread, to me, seems to be folks attempting to use ORDA like it's an extension of classic. It was incredibly frustrating for me until I got past thinking about ORDA from a classic perspective. Cheers, will probably see you later today. > Hope so. -- Kirk Brooks San Francisco, CA == ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Object notation replacement for use of Self in a script — v18
Hi Kirk,
Thanks for replying.
I think I stated this much earlier in this thread, but the project I am working
on is ENTIRELY orda / object based. I do not mix ‘classic’ into it; except I
would say some 4D commands basically still are ‘classic-oriented’ but they are
working on ‘ORDA-izing’ it. I even wrote my own ‘class definition’ and ‘UI
Object’ subsystem, where I have a UI to define the classes & instantiate
objects.
In my whole project, there is not a single pointer, interprocess or process
variable, or any such ‘vestiges’ of classic 4D. It uses Form, Storage, object
notation, entity selections — the whole works.
Well, there are a couple pointers (local variables) because 4D still forces one
to use them sometimes, like OBJECT Get Pointer( ). But in my own code base I do
not use them. I use strictly object notation.
I also made up for some existing 4D shortcomings, by making some ‘wrapper’
routines. For example, I can get all the attributes of some form object in an
Object.
OBJ_GetObjCharacteristics( Object Name; {what I want} ) —> OBJECT containing
all the attributes of that form object, such as .height, .width, .foreground,
et al.
So I can call:
$obj_LB:=OBJ_GetObjCharacteristics( “LB_Browser” ) and then be able to use:
$obj_LB.left $obj_LB.foreground whatever.
I am not trying to imply I want a ’Self’ function for ORDA. Keisuke explained
there is some differentiation between form object & the data it ‘controls’. The
difference was never clear in classic 4D, which I think was pretty cool.
I merely am saying that when I wanted to work with the value in the SCRIPT of a
form field in the ‘old days’ I could simply use:
Do_Something ( Self ).
And I could get at the value by Self-> and set the value by Self->:= ….
And I could write a generic routine (such as ‘Pretty_Format’) to handle the
basic stuff of stripping off extraneous spaces, enforcing captalization, etc.
And it could even do something much more significant.
I would think that in the ‘ORDA / OBJECT’ paradigm, there should be a way to
get at the ‘variable’ represented by the form object by using
This
Just like one can in many contexts in 4D right now.
In the contexts where ’This’ applies in 4D, it is astonishingly powerful and
tremendously intuitive to use.
Anyway, back to my initial inquiry:
Imagine being able to put into a 4D Object script:
This:=Pretty_Format(This)
Or perhaps:
PRETTY_FORMAT(This).
There are many places (text entry) where you don’t really care what the person
put into it, but you need to protect the user from common formatting issues.
I understand Keisuke’s response that it seems eventually there will be a “This”
in the context of a form object’s script. I hope so.
In the meantime, it seems to demand a lot of ’spaghetti code’ which I always
detest using, just to work around the absence of ’This’ in the context of a
form object’s script.
IN THE ABSENCE of the use of ’Self’, I was hoping there was some other simple
provision for getting at the data for the form object.
But even OBJECT Get Data Source( ) returns a pointer, which of course is Nil
for any Form. - based variable [i.e. Form. — datasource]
I hope you understand my inquiry more clearly now,
Chris
And please do not say that this request is illogical … it is almost as
fundamental as H2O.
> On May 1, 2020, at 1:20 PM, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
> wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 10:53 PM Chris Belanger via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com > wrote:
>
>> Generic programming of vars on a form is very complicated when one uses
>> object attributes for the data source.
>>
>> For example, on screen you make a simple text input object named
>> “enCompany”. It’s data source is Form.en_Company.Name ( i.e.
>> [Company]Name )
>> In ‘classic 4d”, where the data source would be [Company]Name, one can
>> code its script:
>>
> TRIM ( Self )
>
> And TRIM would simply take a POINTER, and you can perform operations on the
>> data that the user typed into that field. (Such as trim off leading &
>> trailing spaces).
>>
> So what does Self actually point to? The object on the form the field is
> displayed in or the actual field in the database?
>
> The two are not the same thing. In classic 4D that distinction is never
> really apparent to us. It didn't need to be and we didn't want to have to
> deal with it. It was part of the how we perceived working with 4D: a field
> on a form _was_ the data. It's also why 4D forms from ages past are so
> overloaded with data processing being done on the form itself instead of
> separated into more independent modules. IP and process vars enabled that
> trend even more. This is a main reason opening up one of these old
> databases in v18 and attempting to change something is so fraught. But I
> digress. With modern 4D tools you just don't do things that way anymore.
>
> Working with ORDA I rarely find a pointer a good solution to anythin
Re: Object notation replacement for use of Self in a script — v18
Exactly. Lahav really gets it. — CB > On May 1, 2020, at 2:51 PM, lists via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote: > > Kirk, > > I have one word that will do all of what we are after : "This" > > It works in listbox, which is a form object, any reason it can't be extended > to other form objects? > > Again, I don't think anyone on this thread is complaining, we are just trying > to understand how to use the new functionality to do what we need to. > > We need to interact with the users through some entry areas, call it objects, > fields, variables. Whatever. And sometimes do silly things like verification > of values, formatting to a certain standard etc.From everything that was > presented so far, there is no way to utilize the new methodology (call it > ORDA, dot notation whatever) as a data source of an entry area without using > some part of classic 4D. Coming up with all sorts of workarounds is fine, > but it is still a workaround. > > Cheers, will probably see you later today. > > Lahav > > -Original Message- > From: 4D_Tech <4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com> On Behalf Of Kirk Brooks via > 4D_Tech > Sent: Friday, May 1, 2020 1:21 PM > To: 4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> > Cc: Kirk Brooks > Subject: Re: Object notation replacement for use of Self in a script — v18 > > Chris, > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 10:53 PM Chris Belanger via 4D_Tech < > 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote: > >> Generic programming of vars on a form is very complicated when one >> uses object attributes for the data source. >> >> For example, on screen you make a simple text input object named >> “enCompany”. It’s data source is Form.en_Company.Name ( i.e. >> [Company]Name ) >> In ‘classic 4d”, where the data source would be [Company]Name, one can >> code its script: >> > TRIM ( Self ) > > And TRIM would simply take a POINTER, and you can perform operations on the >> data that the user typed into that field. (Such as trim off leading & >> trailing spaces). >> > So what does Self actually point to? The object on the form the field is > displayed in or the actual field in the database? > > The two are not the same thing. In classic 4D that distinction is never > really apparent to us. It didn't need to be and we didn't want to have to > deal with it. It was part of the how we perceived working with 4D: a field on > a form _was_ the data. It's also why 4D forms from ages past are so > overloaded with data processing being done on the form itself instead of > separated into more independent modules. IP and process vars enabled that > trend even more. This is a main reason opening up one of these old databases > in v18 and attempting to change something is so fraught. But I digress. With > modern 4D tools you just don't do things that way anymore. > > Working with ORDA I rarely find a pointer a good solution to anything except > managing form objects like buttons. We are saddled with some unfortunate > nomenclature here because a 'form object' has nothing to do with an object in > Form. 'Form objects' are those named widgets on the form. > They _may_ be populated with data from something in Form, or a variable, or a > list box and so on. > > A big conceptual difference between classic 4D and modern 4D is the > distinction between a form object and the data it presents is explicit. So > when I set the data source for an input object to be > > Form.myEntity_o.Name > > where myEntity_o is a reference to an entity in Company the actual data and > the form object are no longer implicitly the same thing like they are in > classic 4D. I have a reference to the entity and I have a form object. They > are two different things. > > I can't get a pointer to the form object in this case. Why not? > First, what do I want to do with it? If I want to manage the form object > itself, visibility, enterability, etc., I don't need a pointer, I can just > use the object name. > If I want to do something with the data, as you do, the pointer won't work > because there are no pointers to object references. Why not? I'm sure there > are technical reasons but they don't matter to me because you don't need it. > You don't need it because you have a reference: myEntity_o. If you want to > change the data you do that with the reference - not through whatever that > data happens to be displayed in. > > This is a fundamental, conceptual difference between using ORDA and classic > 4D. > > In classic 4D we have tables, records, fields and pointers to reference them. > In ORDA we have datastores, dataclasses, entities, properties and we use > references. > > > In the example of the name field you can still put code in the form object to > react to On Data Change. And you can still pass data to a generic method to > manage it. Two ideas come to mind: > 1) method takes an entity > > // myMethod1 (entity) > > // $1 is a Company entity - check the name, address, etc. for proper > f
iNUG Messages — Is it time for it to be more than just 'plain text' ???
It would be so much easier to conduct our conversations and ask our questions if we could include screen shots, or even just use font colours or bold or sizes in a message. Having to send it all as ‘plain text’ seems 1990’s - ish. Do you think the iNUG would be so much more useful if it would support messaging with font attributes (bold, colour, whatever) and images? It is so hard to explain ‘in text’ something that a snapshot would explain in a second. And it seems so easy to misunderstand what a poster is saying / discussing when it has to be entirely written out. Like, for instance, the ambiguity of terms like ‘object’ and the like. I understand that images increases storage, transmission, etc. But would the benefits outweigh the ‘costs’ ? Anyway, my two cents, — Chris ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: iNUG Messages — Is it time for it to be more than just 'plain text' ???
Hi Chris, Have you seen the new forums? https://discuss.4d.com They should do what you’re after. -- Cannon Smith Synergy Farm Solutions Inc. > On May 1, 2020, at 5:41 PM, Chris Belanger via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> > wrote: > > Do you think the iNUG would be so much more useful if it would support > messaging with font attributes (bold, colour, whatever) and images? ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Object notation replacement for use of Self in a script — v18
On May 1, 2020, at 3:44 PM, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote: > > I have not had any great joy attempting to use pop-ups with object > references. Haven't tried in v18 so maybe it's improved. In V17, popups work with form object expressions. If you set the expression to “Form.payment_type”, then when it displays, it selects the appropriate value in the popup, and choosing an item populates Form.payment_type” with the value. If you have a static set of options you just enter them in the object properties and you’re done. If you need a dynamic list it’s also pretty easy to use New list and OBJECT SET LIST BY REFERENCE. Much nicer than using popups with arrays. > But with respect to changing the names of a few form objects why is that a > deal? The form objects can be named anything - doesn't matter what the > field names are. I know form objects can be named anything. That was entirely my point; if you use form object names to reference the value, I.e. > Here is an example. I created a form with one in input and the object method > below. The form object name is "some.property.path" and the expression is > Form.some.property.path. Then you probably can’t use form object names to help manage groups of form objects. Jim Crate ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Object notation replacement for use of Self in a script — v18
On Apr 30, 2020, at 9:36 PM, Douglas von Roeder via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote: > > Another WTF is that you can’t iterate from the end of a collection to the > start. You can reorder the collection and then run a For each loop but > that’s a complete kludge. For each ($item;$collection.reverse()) // do some stuff End for each This is pretty much the same way you enumerate in reverse order in the other languages I use. Jim Crate ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Distinct Collection
On Apr 29, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Paul Dennis via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
wrote:
>
> I have a collection created from arrays via mysql. This contains duplicated
> elements. I'm trying to do the equivalent of distinct values but the
> collection.distinct command does not do the distinction on a single
> attribute.
>
> This is really slow and doesn't seem to work.
>
> ARRAY TO
> COLLECTION($companycol;$CompanyUUID;"UUID";$alContactMySqlID;"MySQLUserID";$asName;"Name";$asAddress;"AddressLine1";$asCity;"Town";$asPostcode;"PostCode")
>
> $col:=$companycol.distinct("MySQLItemID")
>
> For each ($element;$col)
>
> $col2:=$companycol.query("MySQLItemID = :1";$element)
This line finds *all* items in $companycol matching the ID, and
> $col3.combine($col2)
this line adds *all* those found elements to $col3. So at the end, $col3 should
be the same as $companycol. What you probably want is:
$col3.push($col2[0])
This will just add the first found element, not all the duplicates that were
also found by .query(). You shouldn’t have to check whether you found any items
since you’re querying on IDs you’ve extracted from the collection.
> End for each
> $col.clear()
> $col2.clear()
> $companycol:=$col3
> $col3.clear()
You shouldn’t need to clear the collections either, unless you are going to use
them again for something else. As local variables, they’ll be cleared when the
method ends.
Jim Crate
**
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Re: Distinct Collection
On Apr 29, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Paul Dennis via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote: > > I have a collection created from arrays via mysql. This contains duplicated > elements. I'm trying to do the equivalent of distinct values but the > collection.distinct command does not do the distinction on a single > attribute. I forgot to show what I’d do. Querying every distinct ID is likely to be slow if there are many rows. This could be simplified a bit. ARRAY TO COLLECTION($companycol;$CompanyUUID;"UUID";$alContactMySqlID;"MySQLUserID";$asName;"Name";$asAddress;"AddressLine1";$asCity;"Town";$asPostcode;"PostCode”) // MySQLItemID is not in the ARRAY TO COLLECTION? // Sort the collection $companycol:=$companycol.orderBy(“MySQLItemID”) $uniqueCol:=New collection $lastID:=-1 For each ($element;$companycol) If ($lastID#$element.MySQLItemID) $lastID:=$element.MySQLItemID $uniqueCol.push($element) End if End for each Jim Crate ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Object notation replacement for use of Self in a script
> "Don’t be so quick to complain; you finally got ‘for each’ 10 years after > the rest of the world (including Active4D).” > Good point. So…you’re thinking that the feature set is complete? Absolutely. In fact it is more complete than most implementations, you can specify and begin and end index for ordered collections. > "I don’t know of a single language (and I have used at least 6) where ‘for > each’ is reversible.” > This could be 4D’s chance to be a trendsetter! I don’t think it's worth it. Iterating in reverse is not a common operation. > it’s funny that we have such a handy looping construct yet I have write > code to init and update my own index. If you need an index in a ‘for each’ loop, you should actually be using an indexed ‘for’ loop. That’s the point of having ‘for each’ separate from ‘for’: 90% of the time you don’t need the index and ‘for each’ is more concise, but when you need an index a for loop increments it for you. - Aparajita ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Object notation replacement for use of Self in a script ― v18
Lahav, not 'That', 'This' :) Chip > >> I have one word that will do all of what we are after : "This" >> > Damn - I wish I'd said that. Hell is other people Jean-Paul Sartre ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: iNUG Messages ― Is it time for it to be more than just 'plain text' ???
you need to up your ASCII drawing skills :) > > It is so hard to explain ‘in text’ something that a snapshot would > explain in a second. Hell is other people Jean-Paul Sartre ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: iNUG Messages ― Is it time for it to be more than just 'plain text' ???
I have been to the new forums - much better then the old one. however - I really prefer everything coming to me (email) vs having to go get it (forum) Chip > Hi Chris, > > Have you seen the new forums? > > https://discuss.4d.com > > They should do what you’re after. > > -- > Cannon Smith > Synergy Farm Solutions Inc. > > > >> On May 1, 2020, at 5:41 PM, Chris Belanger via 4D_Tech >> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote: >> >> Do you think the iNUG would be so much more useful if it would >> support messaging with font attributes (bold, colour, whatever) and >> images? > > ** > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) > Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html > Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech > Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com > ** Hell is other people Jean-Paul Sartre ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: iNUG Messages — Is it time for it to be more than just 'plain text' ???
Hi Chip, I haven't tested myself, but afak this feature is available in the new 4D forum. It is using Discourse (www.discource.org), which offers mailing list support. HTH Koen > Op 2 mei 2020, om 07:38 heeft Chip Scheide via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> > het volgende geschreven: > > I really prefer everything coming to me (email) vs having to go get it (forum) Compass bvba Koen Van Hooreweghe Kloosterstraat 65 9910 Aalter Belgium tel +32 495 511.653 ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
RE: Object notation replacement for use of Self in a script — v18
I've created a feature request on the new forum. Voting is open. Lahav -Original Message- From: 4D_Tech <4d_tech-boun...@lists.4d.com> On Behalf Of Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech Sent: Friday, May 1, 2020 3:13 PM To: 4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> Cc: Kirk Brooks Subject: Re: Object notation replacement for use of Self in a script — v18 Lahav, On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 1:51 PM lists via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote: > I have one word that will do all of what we are after : "This" > Damn - I wish I'd said that. > Again, I don't think anyone on this thread is complaining, we are just > trying to understand how to use the new functionality to do what we need to. > I don't either. I probably overthink things like this or project my own experience on it too much with the focus on the conceptual stuff. But I read a lot of posts here and on the Forum and the common thread, to me, seems to be folks attempting to use ORDA like it's an extension of classic. It was incredibly frustrating for me until I got past thinking about ORDA from a classic perspective. Cheers, will probably see you later today. > Hope so. -- Kirk Brooks San Francisco, CA == ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com ** ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
