Re: [9fans] off-topic: why linux lost the desktop
On Oct 18, 2012 2:34 PM, "Skip Tavakkolian" wrote: > > Erudite Glenda in Winter? > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 10:17 AM, John Floren wrote: > >> Precisely. The correlation between what makes something > >> good and what makes something popular is small but negative. > >> One of the primary reasons I stopped using Linux was that > >> it was becoming too mainstream and just like all the > >> commercial junk out there. > > > > I too find Linux too mainstream: http://i.imgur.com/Wtm16.png > > > > > > john > I used plan9 before it was cool -- full time philosopher/part time starbucks barista
Re: [9fans] I found this discussion pretty funny
http://planb.lsub.org/ls/octopus.html is a user interface that includes graphics, exploits name space representations, and doesn't just mimic the xerox desktop.
Re: [9fans] I found this discussion pretty funny
On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 6:10 PM, Bakul Shah wrote: > On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 20:35:12 EDT erik quanstrom > wrote: > > > You should explore /sys on Linux. They've embraced namespaces in a > major way. > > > > what am i missing. linux' /sys is just a synthetic filesystem. where > do you > > see this exploring the idea of namespace? > > Oops. s/namespace/synthetic filesystem/ > > It'd be a lot better if it was a synthetic file system in a restricted namespace. I don't think 100% of the processes need to or should have the opportunity to mess with /sys. But maybe that's just all this stuff I learned from Plan 9. :-) Dave
Re: [9fans] new-topic: typographical interface
On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 03:37:57PM -0400, Corey Thomasson wrote: > > Everyday I'm slightly more convinced that you're a highly sophisticated > Markov chain. How do you feel about you're a highly sophisticated Markov chain?
Re: [9fans] new-topic: typographical interface
On Oct 18, 2012 11:44 AM, "Kurt H Maier" wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 07:20:47AM -0700, Albert Skye wrote: > > erik quanstrom wrote: > > > > > > The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop? > > > > > > poor special effects? > > > > it's just resting! > > but maybe it should die > > > > yes > > no "modern GUI", &c. > > (and I'm grateful for that! :) > > > > but Plan 9 (and other software) > > can be much more useful by exposition > > within a *typographical interface* > > i.e., > > an interface > > informed by typographical imperative[1] > > (to increase signal > > decrease noise) > > in > > arranging streams > > (of text/numbers/symbols/images > > outputs and inputs) > > using established patterns > > of typographical technology > > for > > improving the interface/tools > > between process and user > > > > to make it > > natural/immediate/effortless > > > > [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Typographic_Style > > > > Who Ignore 4 Simultaneous > > Days Same Earth Typography. > > Practicing Evil ONEness - > > Upon Earth Of Quadrants. > > Evil Adult Crime VS Youth. > > Supports Lie Of Integration. > > 1 Educated Are Most Dumb. > > Not 1 Human Except Dead 1. > > Man Is Paired, 2 Half 4 Self. > > 1 of God Is Only 1/4 Of God. > > > > Everyday I'm slightly more convinced that you're a highly sophisticated Markov chain.
Re: [9fans] off-topic: why linux lost the desktop
On 2012-10-18 18:52 , erik quanstrom wrote: >> A "well working browser" is an OS these days. A bit of a dilemma that. ;-) > you overestimate how complicated an os needs to be. > > - erik > Browsers are on the dark side - they have cookies
Re: [9fans] off-topic: why linux lost the desktop
> Precisely. The correlation between what makes something > good and what makes something popular is small but negative. > One of the primary reasons I stopped using Linux was that > it was becoming too mainstream and just like all the > commercial junk out there. I too find Linux too mainstream: http://i.imgur.com/Wtm16.png john
Re: [9fans] off-topic: why linux lost the desktop
> A "well working browser" is an OS these days. A bit of a dilemma that. ;-) you overestimate how complicated an os needs to be. - erik
Re: [9fans] off-topic: why linux lost the desktop
A "well working browser" is an OS these days. A bit of a dilemma that. ;-) On Oct 18, 2012 3:25 PM, "Pavel Klinkovsky" wrote: > Dne čtvrtek, 18. října 2012 14:23:03 UTC+2 Oleksandr Iakovliev napsal(a): > >> 1) Lack of modern GUI and GUI development kit > >> ... > > But that's the list of benefits, isn't? :) > > I mostly agree except the browser. > I would appreciate a well working browser in the P9 too. ;) > > Pavel > >
Re: [9fans] sheevaplug SD card driver
Thanks!!! I plan to try it out on sheeva and guru later today. On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Richard Miller <9f...@hamnavoe.com> wrote: > As a side effect of the raspberry pi work, I've produced an SD card > driver for the sheevaplug (and presumably other kirkwood platforms). > It's in two sections: the top layer does the card protocol and is > identical between rpi and kw (could go into /sys/src/9/port?), while > the lower layer does the host sdio interface. The two layers link via > the usual table of functions, so if we encounter a platform with more > than one sd host interface [anybody seen one?] it won't be hard to > cope with. > > Would anyone with a sheevaplug or similar, and a collection of SD > cards, like to try it out before I submit a patch? Source is in > /n/sources/contrib/miller/9/kw, and if you haven't pulled kernel > sources recently you'll need to update /sys/src/9/port/sd.h as well. > The drive appears as '#S/sdM0', and a FAT-formatted SD card can be > mounted simply by doing "diskparts; dosmnt 1 /n/sd". You can of > course hot-swap cards without rebooting, but don't forget to unmount > first. > > Although the driver is called sdmmc.c, it handles only SD cards and > not the older MMC standard. I think it's only a matter of slightly > different initialisation, but I haven't got an actual MMC card to > test it with. If anyone cares enough to send me one, I'll see if > I can make that work too. > >
Re: [9fans] new-topic: typographical interface
On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 07:20:47AM -0700, Albert Skye wrote: > erik quanstrom wrote: > > > > The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop? > > > > poor special effects? > > it's just resting! > but maybe it should die > > yes > no "modern GUI", &c. > (and I'm grateful for that! :) > > but Plan 9 (and other software) > can be much more useful by exposition > within a *typographical interface* > i.e., > an interface > informed by typographical imperative[1] > (to increase signal > decrease noise) > in > arranging streams > (of text/numbers/symbols/images > outputs and inputs) > using established patterns > of typographical technology > for > improving the interface/tools > between process and user > > to make it > natural/immediate/effortless > > [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Typographic_Style > Who Ignore 4 Simultaneous Days Same Earth Typography. Practicing Evil ONEness - Upon Earth Of Quadrants. Evil Adult Crime VS Youth. Supports Lie Of Integration. 1 Educated Are Most Dumb. Not 1 Human Except Dead 1. Man Is Paired, 2 Half 4 Self. 1 of God Is Only 1/4 Of God.
Re: [9fans] new-topic: typographical interface
the solution is to just stop worrying and love the bitmap font because there are more important things in life. such as not inserting spurious new lines in mailing list posts. On Thu, 18 Oct 2012, Albert Skye wrote: erik quanstrom wrote: The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop? poor special effects? it's just resting! but maybe it should die yes no "modern GUI", &c. (and I'm grateful for that! :) but Plan 9 (and other software) can be much more useful by exposition within a *typographical interface* i.e., an interface informed by typographical imperative[1] (to increase signal decrease noise) in arranging streams (of text/numbers/symbols/images outputs and inputs) using established patterns of typographical technology for improving the interface/tools between process and user to make it natural/immediate/effortless [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Typographic_Style
Re: [9fans] sheevaplug SD card driver
> Would anyone with a sheevaplug or similar, and a collection of SD > cards, like to try it out before I submit a patch? I just tried with various 2 GB to 16 GB Kingston SD and microSD (with adapter) cards on my SheevaPlug and it works like a charm. Thanks for your very nice work. -- David du Colombier
Re: [9fans] off-topic: why linux lost the desktop
Dne čtvrtek, 18. října 2012 14:23:03 UTC+2 Oleksandr Iakovliev napsal(a): >> 1) Lack of modern GUI and GUI development kit >> ... > But that's the list of benefits, isn't? :) I mostly agree except the browser. I would appreciate a well working browser in the P9 too. ;) Pavel
Re: [9fans] off-topic: why linux lost the desktop
> http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2012/Aug-29.html If developmental stability was all it took to attract third party developers then why didn't FreeBSD "win the desktop" a decade ago? Or indeed Plan 9 (I suppose this is reductio)?
Re: [9fans] new-topic: typographical interface
erik quanstrom wrote: > > The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop? > > poor special effects? it's just resting! but maybe it should die yes no "modern GUI", &c. (and I'm grateful for that! :) but Plan 9 (and other software) can be much more useful by exposition within a *typographical interface* i.e., an interface informed by typographical imperative[1] (to increase signal decrease noise) in arranging streams (of text/numbers/symbols/images outputs and inputs) using established patterns of typographical technology for improving the interface/tools between process and user to make it natural/immediate/effortless [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Typographic_Style
Re: [9fans] off-topic: why linux lost the desktop
> erik quanstrom wrote: > > > > The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop? > > > > poor special effects? > > > > - erik > > The Plan 9 desktop was never aimed at the consumer market, which is [...] that was supposed to be a switcheroo, not a comment on plan 9 graphics or the importance of graphics. sorry. - erik
Re: [9fans] off-topic: why linux lost the desktop
>>The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop? >> >> 1) Lack of modern GUI and GUI development kit >> 2) Lack of Object Oriented GUI configuration tools >> 3) Lack of a decent web0browser >> 4) Lack of a decent communication/messaging client >> 5) Lack of an Office Applications suite >> ... >> ... >> ... >> z) Last, but not the least, hate towards C++ and love for the Go > >But that's the list of benefits, isn't? :) Precisely. The correlation between what makes something good and what makes something popular is small but negative. One of the primary reasons I stopped using Linux was that it was becoming too mainstream and just like all the commercial junk out there. In general, I don't have any objection to reinventing the wheel. If no one ever did, we wouldn't have the pneumatic tire. But just fiddling about the edges and deciding what color it should be is the worst of R&D sins. It's BORING. If you ever watch the TV shows that are competitions of creative work, the most damning thing a judge can say is that it's boring. The same is true of software development and engineering. Besides, it it becomes unfun very quickly if you can't start something new with a clean sheet of paper at least every few months. BLS
Re: [9fans] sheevaplug SD card driver
On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Richard Miller <9f...@hamnavoe.com> wrote: > As a side effect of the raspberry pi work, I've produced an SD card > driver for the sheevaplug (and presumably other kirkwood platforms). > It's in two sections: the top layer does the card protocol and is > identical between rpi and kw (could go into /sys/src/9/port?), while > the lower layer does the host sdio interface. The two layers link via > the usual table of functions, so if we encounter a platform with more > than one sd host interface [anybody seen one?] it won't be hard to > cope with. This is very nice work. Thanks. > > Would anyone with a sheevaplug or similar, and a collection of SD > cards, like to try it out before I submit a patch? Source is in I have a sheeva but no SD cards, sorry. G.
Re: [9fans] off-topic: why linux lost the desktop
On Oct 18, 2012, at 5:03 AM, Balwinder S Dheeman wrote: > On 10/18/2012 01:35 AM, Christoph Lohmann wrote: >> Greetings comrades. >> >> On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 22:05:08 +0200 Aharon Robbins wrote: >>> This says a lot, rather nicely: >>> >>> http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2012/Aug-29.html >>> >>> Having lived through the Unix wars of the 80s and 90s, it's the same >>> story all over again. >> >> The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop? > > 1) Lack of modern GUI and GUI development kit > 2) Lack of Object Oriented GUI configuration tools > 3) Lack of a decent web0browser > 4) Lack of a decent communication/messaging client > 5) Lack of an Office Applications suite > ... > ... > ... > z) Last, but not the least, hate towards C++ and love for the Go > > -- > Balwinder S "bdheeman" Dheeman > (http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/) > Is this another one of those weird plan9 jokes?
Re: [9fans] off-topic: why linux lost the desktop
that's what I thought. :) On Oct 18, 2012, at 2:10 PM, Oleksandr Iakovliev wrote: > On 2012-10-18 11:03 , Balwinder S Dheeman wrote: >> On 10/18/2012 01:35 AM, Christoph Lohmann wrote: >>> Greetings comrades. >>> >>> On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 22:05:08 +0200 Aharon Robbins >>> wrote: This says a lot, rather nicely: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2012/Aug-29.html Having lived through the Unix wars of the 80s and 90s, it's the same story all over again. >>> >>> The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop? >> >> 1) Lack of modern GUI and GUI development kit >> 2) Lack of Object Oriented GUI configuration tools >> 3) Lack of a decent web0browser >> 4) Lack of a decent communication/messaging client >> 5) Lack of an Office Applications suite >> ... >> ... >> ... >> z) Last, but not the least, hate towards C++ and love for the Go >> > > But that's the list of benefits, isn't? :)
[9fans] sheevaplug SD card driver
As a side effect of the raspberry pi work, I've produced an SD card driver for the sheevaplug (and presumably other kirkwood platforms). It's in two sections: the top layer does the card protocol and is identical between rpi and kw (could go into /sys/src/9/port?), while the lower layer does the host sdio interface. The two layers link via the usual table of functions, so if we encounter a platform with more than one sd host interface [anybody seen one?] it won't be hard to cope with. Would anyone with a sheevaplug or similar, and a collection of SD cards, like to try it out before I submit a patch? Source is in /n/sources/contrib/miller/9/kw, and if you haven't pulled kernel sources recently you'll need to update /sys/src/9/port/sd.h as well. The drive appears as '#S/sdM0', and a FAT-formatted SD card can be mounted simply by doing "diskparts; dosmnt 1 /n/sd". You can of course hot-swap cards without rebooting, but don't forget to unmount first. Although the driver is called sdmmc.c, it handles only SD cards and not the older MMC standard. I think it's only a matter of slightly different initialisation, but I haven't got an actual MMC card to test it with. If anyone cares enough to send me one, I'll see if I can make that work too.
Re: [9fans] off-topic: why linux lost the desktop
On 2012-10-18 11:03 , Balwinder S Dheeman wrote: > On 10/18/2012 01:35 AM, Christoph Lohmann wrote: >> Greetings comrades. >> >> On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 22:05:08 +0200 Aharon Robbins >> wrote: >>> This says a lot, rather nicely: >>> >>> http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2012/Aug-29.html >>> >>> Having lived through the Unix wars of the 80s and 90s, it's the same >>> story all over again. >> >> The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop? > > 1) Lack of modern GUI and GUI development kit > 2) Lack of Object Oriented GUI configuration tools > 3) Lack of a decent web0browser > 4) Lack of a decent communication/messaging client > 5) Lack of an Office Applications suite > ... > ... > ... > z) Last, but not the least, hate towards C++ and love for the Go > But that's the list of benefits, isn't? :)
Re: [9fans] off-topic: why linux lost the desktop
On 10/18/2012 01:35 AM, Christoph Lohmann wrote: Greetings comrades. On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 22:05:08 +0200 Aharon Robbins wrote: This says a lot, rather nicely: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2012/Aug-29.html Having lived through the Unix wars of the 80s and 90s, it's the same story all over again. The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop? 1) Lack of modern GUI and GUI development kit 2) Lack of Object Oriented GUI configuration tools 3) Lack of a decent web0browser 4) Lack of a decent communication/messaging client 5) Lack of an Office Applications suite ... ... ... z) Last, but not the least, hate towards C++ and love for the Go -- Balwinder S "bdheeman" Dheeman (http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/)
Re: [9fans] off-topic: why linux lost the desktop
On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 10:05:08PM +0200, Christoph Lohmann wrote: > > The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop? > Having forgotten that a market for a sensible solution is a niche market. Only stupidity and lack of reflexion can replace the "what do I need" with "i don't know what I need ; so what everybody has is obviously what I do need", hence a mass market (the Panurge's sheeps). -- Thierry Laronde http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
Re: [9fans] off-topic: why linux lost the desktop
erik quanstrom wrote: > > The question is rather: What killed the Plan 9 desktop? > > poor special effects? > > - erik The Plan 9 desktop was never aimed at the consumer market, which is what Miguel was bemoaning for Linux. Plan 9 was never even aimed the broader Unix / software developer market; it was designed mainly to please the developers (which is fine, they did great things, but let's be honest here). The broader point is that the Unix / Linux / Open Source "communities" seem to be plagued with a never-ending desire to reinvent the same wheels over again instead of moving forward. This may be part of what Rob had in mind in his 2000 paper about systems reearch being dead. And it may just be part of the human condition. :-( Arnold
