Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 08:34:32AM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote: > We just got a mouthful from sl and you about the lack of explanation > for the state of the various plan 9 "distributions". It all smacks of > expecting Da Vinci to update the Mona Lisa because somebody would > prefer a high-rise landscape in the background and because someone > actually did photoshop the Mona Lisa in that guise, but was not > accepted as the most significant contributor to the painting. I'm not really following the art analogy here, but nothing I've said on this list is new. It's all documented either on 9front.org or (more frequently) in the manual, which comes with the operating system. The 9front ISO also contains the complete mercurial history of 9front, but does not include or refer to the 'ports' repo. Most of the developers of 9front don't use (or even like) the 'ports' repository. As far as I know the software in it works on any Plan 9 system. Regardless, I'll work with its maintainers to clarify the non-relationship in the README file. If you have any other suggestions for improving the state of things, let me know. If I'm honest, I suspect most of 9fans doesn't really give a shit about most of these issues. If anyone did, they probably would have said something before now, or done something to ameliorate any of them. Instead, they only seem to show up when someone gets mad about something else and then decides to air unrelated grievances -- which is a shame, because the sooner they're voiced the easier it is to fix things. I'm sure the performative outrage is much more gratifying in the moment. If anyone wants anything fixed, I'm available for that. If I have to wait until someone whatabouts something else, that's fine too, it's just slower. Either way, I'll try. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-M816b0675830c08a93b5287c3 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
On 11/23/19, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: > i'm not sure you got sl's philosophy here. of course he will deny i > do, but here's my interpretation anyway: the public generally seems to > frown upon technology. people don't even want products any more. all > they need is a flashy name. a future idea to be had. just buy another > app, download it. don't even use it. try it out another day when it is > actually more convenient for you. > This here is a "Plan 9 contributors mutual admiration society" mailing list, a lot like a very large marriage; with all the thorns that complement the occasional budding rose and all the pain the hopefully rare divorce brings. Somebody coming along to promote 9front as the real heir to some totally inappropriate throne, to lord it over a scattering of communities that like to play with the one exotic toy they managed to salvage when they escaped from the clutches of Bill Gates first and Linus Torvalds second, well, that someone should at least show some manners. Failing which, I think it is reasonable for them to get escoriated, as there seem to be few if any other mechanism for the local team supporters to express their annoyance. Of course, I presume none of us "bitter old hypocrites (of the male variety)" - as Aram seems to have felt a need to label us - would risk trying to bully the 9front mailing list participants, in our frailty. Nevertheless, maybe just pointing out that bullying is so 1980s will have some positive effect, at least for a couple of days. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-M7cd89987805a71d8569d2470 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
On 11/24/19, Kurt H Maier wrote: > > The other repos on that site are either user repos run by random people > who asked me for access, or else various code I've collected around the > internet and did not want to lose. Some of those repos came from Uriel > and I never have figured out what they are or where they came from. If > anyone can help with those, I'd appreciate it. > We just got a mouthful from sl and you about the lack of explanation for the state of the various plan 9 "distributions". It all smacks of expecting Da Vinci to update the Mona Lisa because somebody would prefer a high-rise landscape in the background and because someone actually did photoshop the Mona Lisa in that guise, but was not accepted as the most significant contributor to the painting. I really don't feel like being kind to that sentiment, but I will refrain to lower myself to the level of disrespect that sl demonstrated. You used to have that position, Kurt with Hiro a close second (no offence intended, Kurt or Hiro, we are what we are and I find much of it stimulating), but between sl and Aram, they have left the two of you standing! Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-Mf0217854643855cb3eb0a22c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
On Nov 23, 2019, at 9:25 PM, greemngr...@gmail.com wrote: > > I was just curious if it had any chances of coming back or were 9legacy and > 9front the only options. Ah. :-) But why? It is just out of idle curiosity, such as wondering about an old friend you haven't seen in decades or you actually wanted to use plan9? Personally I'd recommend 9pi. Raspi + 9pi is a great combination and there is plenty to explore, plenty of real world things to control. There are a lot of pi "hats" that would be fun to play with or use. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tb6b3aefeebeb526d-Mf52a06269beb23f06f90d404 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
I was just curious if it had any chances of coming back or were 9legacy and 9front the only options. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tb6b3aefeebeb526d-Mba7731a6c4090275a2d0e91e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
On Nov 21, 2019, at 10:29 PM, greemngr...@gmail.com wrote: > > The site hasn't been updated since 2014-2015. If it's dead, is there any > chance of it coming back into development? Why do you ask? What do you want to do? -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tb6b3aefeebeb526d-M7e448fa254695b6b7ab5b32c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 04:35:25PM -0600, Steven Stallion wrote: > The upstream version of Mercurial in the 9front ports collection is > based on my work, not bichued's: > https://code.9front.org/hg/ports/file/5f994209e142/dev-vcs/mercurial/mkfile > That repo is run by 9front users; I just host it. That's why the contact point is mveety in the repo listing. 9front doesn't ship any of that code. > The amount of work wasn't much, but if you're going to dredge up > ancient history, at least be accurate: I wasn't aware I was dredging anything up. You complained about something, and I went looking to see if I could fix the problem. This repo is 9front: http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/ Nothing else is 9front, and all of 9front is in that repo. Here is the revision history for the mercurial mkfile in 9front: http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/log/tip/sys/src/cmd/hg/mkfile Obviously the people who work on the ports appreciate your effort, but it is not the same port of mercurial that 9front uses. I hope this clears up the issue. In the future, if anyone is dissatisfied with any of the attribution or use of any of the code in 9front, please feel free to contact the 9front mailing list, and I'll do my best to verify & fix any such problems. Complete archives are available over 9p; there's a script to make accessing them easier at https://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/file/tip/rc/bin/9fs If you'd prefer, you can also email me directly. The other repos on that site are either user repos run by random people who asked me for access, or else various code I've collected around the internet and did not want to lose. Some of those repos came from Uriel and I never have figured out what they are or where they came from. If anyone can help with those, I'd appreciate it. thanks, khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-Mff233ad17ab073a969cf1b10 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
It is unfortunate that some believe that being caustic is a prerequisite for 9front advocacy. Worse, many 9front advocates become offended by any challenge to claims they make, while at the same time administering personal insults with ease. Fixing the fragmentation doesn't come from starting yet another fork. On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 3:10 PM Ori Bernstein wrote: > On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 08:24:41 -0600, Steven Stallion > wrote: > > Against my better judgement... > > On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 08:24:41 -0600, Steven Stallion > wrote: > > > On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 3:30 AM Richard Miller <9f...@hamnavoe.com> > wrote: > > > Grow up. > > > > Indeed. It's interesting that folks from 9front like to tout their > > development as "open" using tools that others in the community have > > developed in addition to their own. To wit, you seem to have gotten > > along quite nicely using the porting work I did for Mercurial in 2012. > > Yes, and thank you. I mean that. > > You put your code in the open, and people that found it useful > were able to use it. > > > The Plan 9 community is certainly fragmented, but there are still a > > number of people that are willing to share their knowledge and work > > with others and it benefits no one to cast aspersions. > > It's frustrating. I *want* to see a healthy, active Labs > distribution. > > From my viewpoint, fragmentation doesn't capture the nature of the > difficulty. The problem is that the fragments are invisible. > > The most official looking site for vanilla plan9 is 9p.io. It > doesn't show any sign of activity since 2015. The wiki not only > fails to point to a more up to date location, it confuses the > issue by exclusively pointing at dead links. > > 9legacy exists. It doesn't bill itself as living continuation of > Plan 9. It claims it's a patch set for the last image to come > out of the moldering corpse of Bell Labs. Even there, '9fs sources' > tries to connect to the long-gone sources.cs.bell-labs.com. > > There's code scattered on contrib, but as for who has the most up > to date/maintained/functioinal version of something -- it's > hearsay, and usually, I haven't heard anyone say. > > There's the plan9-contrib github repository, but the last commit > on that was over a year ago, and until recently, there was no way > to use it *from* plan 9 -- now, lufia has ported git, and I wrote > git9. Lufia's patches seem to be stalled in review. > > There are contrib directories, but projects are haphazardly thrown > in, often duplicated them, with no indication of what's working, > up to date, or maintained. > > Code may exist, but... where? I've been around for a while and I > would have trouble finding the bits needed for a day-to-day usable > system outside of the 9front world. > > God have mercy on someone trying to use the system seriously for the > first time. > > -- > Ori Bernstein -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-M7c19eafee6edc60ee8c28769 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 08:24:41 -0600, Steven Stallion wrote: Against my better judgement... On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 08:24:41 -0600, Steven Stallion wrote: > On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 3:30 AM Richard Miller <9f...@hamnavoe.com> wrote: > > Grow up. > > Indeed. It's interesting that folks from 9front like to tout their > development as "open" using tools that others in the community have > developed in addition to their own. To wit, you seem to have gotten > along quite nicely using the porting work I did for Mercurial in 2012. Yes, and thank you. I mean that. You put your code in the open, and people that found it useful were able to use it. > The Plan 9 community is certainly fragmented, but there are still a > number of people that are willing to share their knowledge and work > with others and it benefits no one to cast aspersions. It's frustrating. I *want* to see a healthy, active Labs distribution. >From my viewpoint, fragmentation doesn't capture the nature of the difficulty. The problem is that the fragments are invisible. The most official looking site for vanilla plan9 is 9p.io. It doesn't show any sign of activity since 2015. The wiki not only fails to point to a more up to date location, it confuses the issue by exclusively pointing at dead links. 9legacy exists. It doesn't bill itself as living continuation of Plan 9. It claims it's a patch set for the last image to come out of the moldering corpse of Bell Labs. Even there, '9fs sources' tries to connect to the long-gone sources.cs.bell-labs.com. There's code scattered on contrib, but as for who has the most up to date/maintained/functioinal version of something -- it's hearsay, and usually, I haven't heard anyone say. There's the plan9-contrib github repository, but the last commit on that was over a year ago, and until recently, there was no way to use it *from* plan 9 -- now, lufia has ported git, and I wrote git9. Lufia's patches seem to be stalled in review. There are contrib directories, but projects are haphazardly thrown in, often duplicated them, with no indication of what's working, up to date, or maintained. Code may exist, but... where? I've been around for a while and I would have trouble finding the bits needed for a day-to-day usable system outside of the 9front world. God have mercy on someone trying to use the system seriously for the first time. -- Ori Bernstein -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-Mb9b516149f01370f96ffb6b8 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
> The amount of work wasn't much then why bring it up? -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-M9af22cf877937b18fbd1ae40 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
oh. nobody uses that. i wish that stupid ports repo didn't exist :) -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-Mbdaaacbda2d5ec3fe7bf687f Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
The upstream version of Mercurial in the 9front ports collection is based on my work, not bichued's: https://code.9front.org/hg/ports/file/5f994209e142/dev-vcs/mercurial/mkfile The amount of work wasn't much, but if you're going to dredge up ancient history, at least be accurate: http://mail.9fans.net/pipermail/9fans/2012-April/023243.html https://www.mercurial-scm.org/wiki/Plan9FromBellLabs https://www.mercurial-scm.org/wiki/FactotumExtension https://www.mercurial-scm.org/pipermail/mercurial-devel/2012-April/039078.html On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 2:28 PM Kurt H Maier wrote: > > To follow up, 9front mercurial originated from > /n/sources/contrib/bichued/ in 2009. So this is yet another example of > the complete lack of discoverability being a source of unending > confusion in the Plan 9 community. How many years have people been > pissed off about "stolen work" or whatever based on similar > misconceptions? We'll never know. So much information gets lost, and > it takes concentrated effort to reconstruct the timelines. A stitch in > time saves nine! > > khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-M86edd06430369ad0a441008d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
To follow up, 9front mercurial originated from /n/sources/contrib/bichued/ in 2009. So this is yet another example of the complete lack of discoverability being a source of unending confusion in the Plan 9 community. How many years have people been pissed off about "stolen work" or whatever based on similar misconceptions? We'll never know. So much information gets lost, and it takes concentrated effort to reconstruct the timelines. A stitch in time saves nine! khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-M05aa51942958bd173676b94d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 08:24:41AM -0600, Steven Stallion wrote: > > Indeed. It's interesting that folks from 9front like to tout their > development as "open" using tools that others in the community have > developed in addition to their own. To wit, you seem to have gotten > along quite nicely using the porting work I did for Mercurial in 2012. I'm not sure what this paragraph means. Can you clarify? If you feel something in 9front is misattributed or should be clarified as your work, it will take seconds to fix. Can you be specific? Initial commits were in 2011, and I don't see much change to the mercurial code until some CVE fixes in 2014. I'd be happy to amend the record on your behalf. I also don't understand the scare quotes around "open" or the part about using other people's software. That's kind of the point of the license. > (FWIW, I found this response especially entertaining after visiting > code.9front.org; "Just Send the Money" indeed.) 402 Payment Required is my default response to search engine crawlers and unpopulated URL paths. code.9front.org returns that up front to mitigate search engines, which otherwise beat the shit out of hgweb. 9front infrastructure is all paid for out of pocket by me and sl, so we're not really interested in spending bandwidth on Google's bottom line. the actual hgweb pages (everything under code.9front.org/hg) have working search functions. the "just send the money" text is a decade-old joke about support contracts and how they handle bug reports. You may note that there is no actual money-collecting infrastructure presented, because nobody actually sends the money. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-Mb560a122508d2f77c5e4c934 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 09:29:14AM +, Richard Miller wrote: > > Never mind, I think I can just about see the gist of what you're > trying to get across. It's meant to be insulting, right? > It's meant to be a practical answer. When people come looking for information, they want to know where the information is. "It's in six different places, and the only consistent place to find them is by asking over and over again on a mailing list, because they move every couple years" is not an answer that people find much use for. Generalizations are useful ways to get an overall picture of the situation. If you read the documents on 9p.io, none of the people who currently develop Plan 9 or software for it are even mentioned except in the contrib index. An example of this is how people always describe 9p.io as a mirror. I'm grateful it's up, but the first time I found out that people have been posting source code to it post-mirror is *in this thread*. How is anyone supposed to have been able to discover this? Repeatedly walking the tree and diffing everything just in case? Another good example is the kernel changes we only find out about when someone tries to build a Go beta on 9front, fails, and then we realize that someone on that team has modified the kernel for the language. I opened a ticket and asked for such things to be mentioned in the Go release notes, and they kindly accomodated me. But that was not the default behavior; the default behavior was to assume everyone was monitoring some mercurial repository on bitbucket. Those assumptions do not hold. As for the "just send the money" joke, the code lives at code.9front.org/hg/ and the (little-used, despite years of requests for its existence) wiki is at code.9front.org/wiki/. The code repos are documented on 9front.org and the wiki is not advertised beyond the people who asked for it, but it's open to everyone and contains a changelog. I appreciate the work that people put into Plan 9. The reality of that work is that it's scattered, difficult to find, and necessitates years of monitoring 9fans to identify the people who do it. That works for the people involved, and nobody at this point expects it to change, but it is extremely disconnected from the way people tend to go about developing software nowadays. For all practical purposes, sl's answer is accurate. Whether it's insulting is really up to the reader. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-M62c7bcc4a8490af013031370 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
imo you should not allow insult by who only tried to insult you in weakness of feeling insulted by former accused insult. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-M9337221a8a9b9afc9a111659 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
Yeah, WTF. > On 23 Nov 2019, at 14:16, Skip Tavakkolian wrote: > > > I think (hope) this is sarcasm. > >> On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 6:35 AM Aram Hăvărneanu wrote: >> Steve and Richard, >> >> You are a bunch of hypocrites. Bitter old men. >> >> -- >> Aram Hăvărneanu > > 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-M504e06dd98e25522a64039c4 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
On 11/23/19, Richard Miller <9f...@hamnavoe.com> wrote: >> nobody takes any of it seriously because none of them really use >> plan 9 to do anything people use computers to do ... > Never mind, I think I can just about see the gist of what you're > trying to get across. It's meant to be insulting, right? it's insulting to you that nobody takes plan9 serious? or that sl feels the need to point it out while you know better? or you disagree? because you take plan9 serious? i'm not sure you got sl's philosophy here. of course he will deny i do, but here's my interpretation anyway: the public generally seems to frown upon technology. people don't even want products any more. all they need is a flashy name. a future idea to be had. just buy another app, download it. don't even use it. try it out another day when it is actually more convenient for you. never threaten the user that your system will enable them to do anything. nobody wants an IDE, or to configure an operating system. if you can just open another tab, why should you buy another computer and install and configure an operating system that doesn't auto-update itself and is always out-of-date bec. it lacks support of any mainstream protocol like netflix or instagram. if they were consistent they would laugh about ALL operating systems, but apple and microsoft spend a good deal of marketing to prevent that :) it seems that 9front and plan9 are both ridiculous to the public. in the case of the former i would like to take pride and say for good reason. for the latter i think it's a sad, cause there was once big monopolies and bright people backing the effort, and now they are all busy doing something else that i don't know about - sad for me, perhaps great for them :P -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-Mccb10f9ff04755735d725f64 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
I think (hope) this is sarcasm. On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 6:35 AM Aram Hăvărneanu wrote: > Steve and Richard, > > You are a bunch of hypocrites. Bitter old men. > > -- > Aram Hăvărneanu -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-M940909db642f51d31e0c1fe7 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
On 11/23/19, Aram Hăvărneanu wrote: > Steve and Richard, > > You are a bunch of hypocrites. Bitter old men. > Not hypocrites, not bitter. Old, maybe. Nor am I. One day, Aram, you'll be at the receiving end of criticism or even ridicule. There is no doubt that you are brilliant, and so are many 9front supporter. But that is just not enough. -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 71 471 3694 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-M8460b1a82453308e36e258bd Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
Steve and Richard, You are a bunch of hypocrites. Bitter old men. -- Aram Hăvărneanu -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-M08bfe720c68d2b835d25e368 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 3:30 AM Richard Miller <9f...@hamnavoe.com> wrote: > Grow up. Indeed. It's interesting that folks from 9front like to tout their development as "open" using tools that others in the community have developed in addition to their own. To wit, you seem to have gotten along quite nicely using the porting work I did for Mercurial in 2012. The Plan 9 community is certainly fragmented, but there are still a number of people that are willing to share their knowledge and work with others and it benefits no one to cast aspersions. (FWIW, I found this response especially entertaining after visiting code.9front.org; "Just Send the Money" indeed.) -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tf27e6479d8812712-M1763a8c56a14268bb06283d2 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?
> nobody takes any of it seriously because none of them really use
> plan 9 to do anything people use computers to do
Ummm, what?
Four instances of universal quantification ("nobody", "any of it",
"none of them", "anything") in a sentence which is not even logically
self-consistent.
Never mind, I think I can just about see the gist of what you're
trying to get across. It's meant to be insulting, right?
Grow up.
--
9fans: 9fans
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