Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

[vic . thacker]

Firstly, congratulations to Lucio on the progress with getting Fossil running 
under 9front. A heartfelt thank you to everyone who offered their support and 
assistance to make this possible!  I only say this as a person who wants to 
celebrate successes.

FWIW, I’d like to help clarify the additional requests that Lucio has made to 
address each point effectively on a separate thread.  Here are Lucio’s 
requests, organized by topic:

Canonical Version of Fossil

Unified Version: There is a need for a single, "canonical" version of 
Fossil to avoid confusion and fragmentation. Multiple versions can complicate 
usage and development.

Inclusion of Sources in Distributions

Key Source Inclusion: Including important sources like Fossil in the 9front 
distribution is crucial. Excluding these sources can lead to decisions made by 
a few contributors affecting all users, especially those unaware of the 
exclusions.

9legacy Boot and Installation

USB Boot and Installation: For 9legacy, it’s essential to enable it to 
boot, install, and run from a USB stick on any PC hardware, with support for 
both IDE and SATA. This would enhance accessibility and user-friendliness.

SSH2 Implementation

Plan 9 Legacy: Lucio is encountering challenges in getting SSH2 to work in 
his Plan 9 legacy setup. Finding the right combination of patches has been 
difficult. Guidance or collaboration to achieve a stable implementation would 
be greatly appreciated.

Cryptography and Security

Secure Communication Tools: Discussions about cryptography have been 
enlightening, but implementing and maintaining secure communication tools like 
SSH and ssh-agent remains challenging. Support in this area would be beneficial.

Version Control with Fossil and PostgreSQL

Integration: Lucio is considering integrating "the other Fossil" with 
PostgreSQL running under NetBSD instead of embedded SQLite. This is complex, 
and any advice or assistance from experienced members would be invaluable.

Porting and Updating Tools

OpenLDAP Tools: Lucio has ported OpenLDAP tools to Plan 9 and uses them 
regularly, but they are based on an older version. Investigating the latest 
build options and updating these tools would be beneficial.
Graphviz Update: Updating Graphviz past its early version to ensure better 
functionality and compatibility would help those relying on it.

Licensing and Legal Support

Legal Advice: Given the local culture of "sanction busting" and the rarity 
of IP prosecutions where Lucio lives, he hasn’t paid much attention to 
licensing. P9F could play a crucial role in providing legal advice and support 
to ensure adherence to licensing requirements.

I hope you find this useful.

Vic


On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 13:46, Lucio De Re wrote:
> If this comes across as a troll, keep in mind that it is your
> interpretation that makes it so, a lesson we South Africans are still busy
> learning, at our country's expense.
>
> I've got Fossil running under 9front; thanks to all those who prodded me
> (and others). I would be happier knowing that there is a "canonical"
> version rather than at least two varieties as appears to be the case from
> the above discussion, but I'd rather not spoil the moment.
>
> My point all along was that if the source (Fossil or other) is not included
> in the (9front) distribution, a (bad) decision is being made by arbitrary
> (non)contributors for all the silent participants who may not even know
> about it. Why would anyone want to play God? Isn't Google bad enough?
>
> I concede that I didn't know myself what I was looking for (I think what
> "I" need is for 9legacy to boot, install and possibly run, from a USB stick
> on any PC hardware, and support both IDE and SATA where present) and my
> rather vague question was intended to make the details less sketchy.
> Instead, I got a tirade about what I was or was not ready, willing or able
> to contribute. Fortunately, that tends to have the desired effect with me,
> so right now I haven't yet recovered my decades of pretty pointless effort,
> but I know I can do it, with sufficient application, it is no longer lost
> or teetering on edge of the abyss.
>
> As for the cryptography angle, that was an eye opener for sure and for
> many, apparently. On my part, I still don't have SSH2 working from my own
> Plan 9 "legacy", I haven't been able to shoehorn the right combination of
> 9legacy patches into it. It is surprising that I haven't broken it entirely
> and I know I came close to doing that on occasion. I had a working version
> of ssh-agent working smoothly on my system, both for Plan 9 and P9P (both
> Linux and NetBSD), but a hardware failure exposed my lack of discipline and
> I haven't had the need or fortitude to recover the working "branch" from
> Git, that version control is too complicated for me to feel comfortable
> with it, I use it only under duress. Now, after suggestions on this forum
> that support my impressions, I 

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

[John the Scott]

finding nothing on google for Nantahala.  any links?

-john

On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 3:42 AM  wrote:
>
> Thank you, Sirjofri, nice idea.
>
> There are two private U.S. companies that are investing, developing, and 
> using a closed source Plan 9 distribution called ᴁOS (aka ᴁ9).  The companies 
> have been in existence since 2020.
>
> Nantahala Holdings, LLC
> Nantahala Operations, LLC (dba Nantahala Systems)
>
> Vic
>
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 17:10, sirjofri wrote:
> > Hey all,
> >
> > Just about one topic mentioned by ibrahim:
> >
> > You mentioned that 9front can't be plan 9 in your perspective because
> > of this licensing and the "origin" of the licensing.
> >
> >> 9front isn't plan9 from my perspective. Plan 9 is the final release with 
> >> patches for the files from sources I can be sure that those aren't taken 
> >> from open source projects by copy and paste.
> > [1]
> >
> > I would make a big difference between what plan 9 is and what the
> > licenses are. Software doesn't care about licenses. People do (and they
> > should!).
> >
> > So what is plan 9 even? Can we compare it to UNIX™ or unix or posix?
> > Who knows...
> >
> > I guess I could say a lot more about that topic, but I guess that's
> > enough and you can puzzle everything else yourself.
> >
> > [1] (I would be very careful with such bold words. I feel like 9front
> > people have heard this phrase a lot and it's probably very thin ice for
> > a few people.)
> >
> > ---
> >
> > About another topic: you mentioned that plan 9 is in use for commercial
> > products, and you explicitly mention german medical sensors. I've never
> > heard about that and I'd like to learn more, as well as about other
> > companies who actually use plan 9.
> >
> > Everything I always hear in the industry is that plan 9 is outdated and
> > nobody uses it and nobody wants to hear about it. I only know of a
> > single company that uses it (coraid), plus a few little projects by taw
> > that could evolve into commercial products.
> >
> > I sometimes thought about building a list of companies that use plan 9
> > technology, just so people can get involved with them, and now that I'm
> > searching for a new job that's even more interesting for me personally.
> > (Not sure if I want to do plan 9 as $dayjob, but I could see it as an
> > option.) That topic should end up in a new thread however (or even a
> > DM).
> >
> > sirjofri



-- 
Fast is fine, But accuracy is final.
You must learn to be slow in a hurry.
- Wyatt Earp

--
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: 
https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-Mfb9bb72703358f3a61b77ac4
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

[Lucio De Re]

If this comes across as a troll, keep in mind that it is your
interpretation that makes it so, a lesson we South Africans are still busy
learning, at our country's expense.

I've got Fossil running under 9front; thanks to all those who prodded me
(and others). I would be happier knowing that there is a "canonical"
version rather than at least two varieties as appears to be the case from
the above discussion, but I'd rather not spoil the moment.

My point all along was that if the source (Fossil or other) is not included
in the (9front) distribution, a (bad) decision is being made by arbitrary
(non)contributors for all the silent participants who may not even know
about it. Why would anyone want to play God? Isn't Google bad enough?

I concede that I didn't know myself what I was looking for (I think what
"I" need is for 9legacy to boot, install and possibly run, from a USB stick
on any PC hardware, and support both IDE and SATA where present) and my
rather vague question was intended to make the details less sketchy.
Instead, I got a tirade about what I was or was not ready, willing or able
to contribute. Fortunately, that tends to have the desired effect with me,
so right now I haven't yet recovered my decades of pretty pointless effort,
but I know I can do it, with sufficient application, it is no longer lost
or teetering on edge of the abyss.

As for the cryptography angle, that was an eye opener for sure and for
many, apparently. On my part, I still don't have SSH2 working from my own
Plan 9 "legacy", I haven't been able to shoehorn the right combination of
9legacy patches into it. It is surprising that I haven't broken it entirely
and I know I came close to doing that on occasion. I had a working version
of ssh-agent working smoothly on my system, both for Plan 9 and P9P (both
Linux and NetBSD), but a hardware failure exposed my lack of discipline and
I haven't had the need or fortitude to recover the working "branch" from
Git, that version control is too complicated for me to feel comfortable
with it, I use it only under duress. Now, after suggestions on this forum
that support my impressions, I want to look at bringing "the other Fossil"
on board using PostgreSQL running under NetBSD instead of embedded SQLite.
Don't hold your breath, though.

One more point, but I may raise more later, seeing that there is a claimed
interest in how others use the generic Plan 9 platform: I long ago ported
the OpenLDAP tools to Plan 9 and I continually use them to access remote
directories with them from a scrappy rc shell script. I noted only recently
that the OpenLDAP distribution has an option to build only the tools and
library, which vindicates my approach which happened rather
serendipitously. I need to investigate that further, my version of the tool
I think goes back to 2.3 or thereabouts. Graphviz I have also been unable
to promote past a very early version, but it works quite nicely for my
occasional use of Dot.

Let me point out also that I have paid absolutely no attention to licencing
requirements; where I live the culture remains that of "sanction busting"
from the Apartheid era and IP prosecutions don't seem to occur very often.
I do think that P9F would be kept quite busy assisting those of us that may
need legal advice or assistance and in some respects I think that role
would be beneficial to all of us - including myself - and it seems a role
that P9F is already playing. Just my impression, of course, but earlier
discussion does bring that to mind.

In short: I totally agree with Ian, we are responsible for what and how
gets discussed here.

Lucio.

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 1:20 AM michaelian ennis 
wrote:

>
>
> > On May 14, 2024, at 12:07, tlaro...@kergis.com wrote:
> > M
> > This is another illustration of "The Mythical Man-Month".
> 
> There were many lessons from “The Mythical Man Month” that seem glaringly
> missing from management decisions during those days. It was shocking. There
> were other more perplexing oddities too in the decision making process.
> 
> I have much to say about the topic but this is perhaps not the right
> place. Perhaps it is not my place at all.
> 
> The VC years have a cartoonish character to them that seemed to be filled
> with an unlimited supply of “Wait, we’re doing what?” moments. Yes I’m
> looking at you boombox.
> 
> What I think is relevant here is that even the plan9 engineers on
> different coasts seemed to get divided by details not unlike the recent
> discussions’ beginnings. This didn’t help win arguments about product
> direction.
> 
> Then there was me just always bitching about Fred Brooks, or ways in which
> the cli was inconsistent, full of “we should”s and “we shouldn’t”s and
> noticing when I was right in dissent more than when I was wrong. So there’s
> that.
> 
> In some possible universes _that_ Coraid thrived
> but they are not ones where where new voices weren’t heard or old ones
> were ignored.
> 
> The flurries of traffic on this list often 

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

[michaelian ennis]

> On May 14, 2024, at 12:07, tlaro...@kergis.com wrote:
> M
> This is another illustration of "The Mythical Man-Month".

There were many lessons from “The Mythical Man Month” that seem glaringly 
missing from management decisions during those days. It was shocking. There 
were other more perplexing oddities too in the decision making process.  

I have much to say about the topic but this is perhaps not the right place. 
Perhaps it is not my place at all.

The VC years have a cartoonish character to them that seemed to be filled with 
an unlimited supply of “Wait, we’re doing what?” moments. Yes I’m looking at 
you boombox.

What I think is relevant here is that even the plan9 engineers on different 
coasts seemed to get divided by details not unlike the recent discussions’ 
beginnings. This didn’t help win arguments about product direction.

Then there was me just always bitching about Fred Brooks, or ways in which the 
cli was inconsistent, full of “we should”s and “we shouldn’t”s and noticing 
when I was right in dissent more than when I was wrong. So there’s that.

In some possible universes _that_ Coraid thrived 
but they are not ones where where new voices weren’t heard or old ones were 
ignored.

The flurries of traffic on this list often seem to have a negative tone to me.  
It means a lot to me when the conversations are supportive. 

I hope this recent activity continues on as more collaborative conversations.  
Nobody joins this list who isn’t interested in participating somehow.  Let’s 
not shut them down.

Ian





--
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: 
https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-M5378ba82370fcbca1ca50edb
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

[Wes Kussmaul]

On 5/14/24 15:05, tlaro...@kergis.com wrote:


 
I don't know if black holes do exist but I'm convinced that there are

already, out there, software implementations of black holes: things
that will collapse under their own weight.


The biggest black hole of them all: https://silibandia.com

--

*Wes Kussmaul*

*Reliable Identities, Inc.*
an Authenticity Enterprise
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451 USA





--
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: 
https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-M3f8caf6b92a5809aa7cc12ff
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

[tlaronde]

On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 06:54:02PM +0100, Steve Simon wrote:
> [html edited]
>
> coraid has an interesting history.
> https://www.information-age.com/silicon-valley-can-kill-business-man-scolded-machine-6832/

This is another illustration of "The Mythical Man-Month".

I still think there is place for a small, understandable system,
providing too features that other systems try not to master, but to
add to a pile of things that is already too huge---look at the
problems and the amount of code appearing now on the kernel side for
Unices for KMSDRM (already more or less considered a dead end, because
the graphical terminal is almost anecdoctical for the GPU).

How could such OSes be a correct fundation for reliable data
storage?---and even for something else in fact.

I don't know what is the trend in U.S., but in France, as usual, "big"
companies get to "cloud" like sheeps, not for any technical reason
but because it was fashionable and this gained managers photos in
magazines for doing so.

And they had been selling their data centers, firing their staff and so
on and promising costs cuts and incredible efficiency.

Neither costs reduction, nor security or efficiency have been
achieved.

And they are now silently trying to restore data centers of their own,
trying to get back what they, in fact, paid to give.

Because of war everything will collapse and the current insane beasts:
the software dinosaurs, will not survive.

I don't know if black holes do exist but I'm convinced that there are
already, out there, software implementations of black holes: things
that will collapse under their own weight.

There is still a chance for Plan9 based/like systems.
-- 
Thierry Laronde 
 http://www.kergis.com/
http://kertex.kergis.com/
 http://nunc-et-hic.fr/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

--
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: 
https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-Mbbdb8a0ff770c37cdf04e3a6
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

[vic . thacker]

On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 02:54, Steve Simon wrote:
> coraid has an interesting history.
>
> Brantley-Coile.jpg
> How Silicon Valley can kill your business, by a man scolded by the 
> machine 
> 
> information-age.com 
> 
>  
> 
>
> Brantley now has the Coraid name back too and is using plan9 to this day.
>
> -Steve

Thank you, Steve, for sharing that. There are some valuable lessons in the 
article. The best lessons are often learned from experiences of others.  It’s 
wonderful to learn that Coraid is still thriving, and that is something worth 
celebrating.  

If Brantley Coile still reads 9fans, thank you sir for being an inspiration to 
me and many others.  

Vester "Vic" Thacker

--
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: 
https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-M54084920d15fb3c4fee0b268
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

[Steve Simon]

coraid has an interesting history.How Silicon Valley can kill your business, by a man scolded by the machineinformation-age.comBrantley now has the Coraid name back too and is using plan9 to this day.-SteveOn 14 May 2024, at 5:39 pm, arn...@skeeve.com wrote:"B. Atticus Grobe"  wrote:As for companies that use 9, Coraid (Brantley Coile) was invested in 9 fortheir network storage systems, although it's possible their newer productsdon't utilize it.They still do. See his posts on LinkedIn.Arnold--9fans: 9fansPermalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-M978e977ab934f741265275d1Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

9fans
  / 9fans / see
discussions
  +
participants
  +
delivery options
Permalink

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

[vic . thacker]

On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 01:30, B. Atticus Grobe wrote:
> Oh, I think it's great that people are using it. I simply find the
> obfuscatory nature of your presentation to be suspicious. It is generally
> considered to be good etiquette to disclose affiliations to a company
> during discussions. Failure to do so is not necessarily damning, but is
> certainly a 'red flag', at least for me.

Sure, I see your point. It's similar to when people post without using 
their real names. While it's not necessarily incriminating, it does raise 
a 'red flag' and can be a cause for suspicion.

Vic

--
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: 
https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-Mb12270d425e07866d8a14466
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

[arnold]

"B. Atticus Grobe"  wrote:

> As for companies that use 9, Coraid (Brantley Coile) was invested in 9 for
> their network storage systems, although it's possible their newer products
> don't utilize it.

They still do. See his posts on LinkedIn.

Arnold

--
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: 
https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-M978e977ab934f741265275d1
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

[B. Atticus Grobe]

Oh, I think it's great that people are using it. I simply find the
obfuscatory nature of your presentation to be suspicious. It is generally
considered to be good etiquette to disclose affiliations to a company
during discussions. Failure to do so is not necessarily damning, but is
certainly a 'red flag', at least for me.

As for companies that use 9, Coraid (Brantley Coile) was invested in 9 for
their network storage systems, although it's possible their newer products
don't utilize it. He is responsible for vblade(8) and I believe also for
the kernel AoE driver. (I haven't verified the origin of the kernel driver;
corrections welcome.)

On Tue, May 14, 2024, 11:04  wrote:

> On Tue, May 14, 2024, at 23:12, B. Atticus Grobe wrote:
> > Taking the time to go through that, it's literally just you; your LLC.
> > Interesting the you didn't feel the need for transparency and simply say
> > 'this is my company.'
> 
> The intention of this thread was to highlight which companies are using
> Plan 9. I mentioned two companies as examples.
> 
> The use of Plan 9 should be celebrated. It's surprising to encounter
> complaints about its utilization.
> 
> Vic

--
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: 
https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-M846daafe7e9b7a99509d57f1
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

[vic . thacker]

On Tue, May 14, 2024, at 23:12, B. Atticus Grobe wrote:
> Taking the time to go through that, it's literally just you; your LLC.
> Interesting the you didn't feel the need for transparency and simply say
> 'this is my company.'

The intention of this thread was to highlight which companies are using Plan 9. 
I mentioned two companies as examples.

The use of Plan 9 should be celebrated. It's surprising to encounter complaints 
about its utilization.

Vic

--
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: 
https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-M94773fc85fb7590452d682a9
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

[B. Atticus Grobe]

Taking the time to go through that, it's literally just you; your LLC.
Interesting the you didn't feel the need for transparency and simply say
'this is my company.'

This certainly fails to inspire even the least bit of confidence in me.

On Mon, May 13, 2024, 16:19  wrote:

> On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 21:56, hiro wrote:
> > citation needed
> 
> 
> https://sosenterprise.sd.gov/BusinessServices/Business/FictitiousDetail.aspx?CN=078243101203005056228191044241171252181195229085

--
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: 
https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-M5827d5b71880814a111fef46
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

[9fans] "(more) security" leaking info example [was: one weird trick to break p9sk1 ?]

[tlaronde]

There was one interesting thread yesterday about p9sk1 and the leaking
of info allowing, in some cases, to break easily the whole security.

Here is another rather trivial example but it may be interesting to
some---and it may explain why on some lists, mails appear in chronological
disorder. (Not specific to Plan9: general problem.)

Context: when it comes to mail, I'm no specialist and just an end
user. Since I'm getting old, I kept with the "old" scheme that my
outcoming mail was to be fed to the Internet connection provider smtp
server. But since I may have to change the ISP---for whatever reason,
generally technical: lack of connection...---, I have a principal email
address, that is independent from the ISP domain, and, to segregate mails,
I may have alternate domain addresses.

Not this long ago, there was no problem. But eventually, the service
was provided with STARTTLS. No real problem too, except to put the
service in place. Then some ISP started, while being authenticated
both by the IP provided and furthermore by user account, to disallow
sending mail if the envelop address was not the user account address, trying
to force to use their provided mail address.

I then set the envelop address to the one required, but still set the
From: header address to my principal email address.

It worked.

Then, some days ago, I decided to send a message to an organization, say
foo.org (french political organization). On their website, they
advertised (they still do) some: contact_...@foo.org.

Unpersonal address.

I had then the surprise to have Gmail bouncing a message to me about a
real person address, with the headers explaining that Google has
changed the policy and that mail without at least SPF or DKIM was not
anymore delivered.

The leak of information is here: the contact_...@foo.org was in fact
forwarded to a real account.

My ISP, apparently, doesn't set SPF or DKIM to mail that have not the
From: address matching the envelop one (while both SPF and DKIM have
nothing to do with that, if I'm not mistaken: that's DMARC; and I'm
perfectly identifiable by both my IP and my user account). So my
message bounced to me because this lack of "security" feature but
displaying a personal information.

First note: I changed my configuration to use, from now on, because it
exists (but this may not be at disposal for everybody), the smtp linked to
the domain of my principal email address, and set both SPF and DKIM.
The result is that the mails are delivered without delay -> this may
explain why some addresses appear in mailing lists in chronological
disorder, because messages are put in quarantine, along the way, due to
lack of SPF or DKIM (not DMARC).

To add to the fun, it appears that the real person behind the generic
"contact_...@foo.org" is known to me. The information leaked, in this
case, is not that this person has something to do with the organization (it was
known). The fun is that this person left the organization almost two
years ago, for a concurrent one (and in political organizations, to be
a traitor to one's country is not a problem, but to be a traitor to
the political organization is unforgivable). That foo.org have changed
their contact email address but not updated their website still advertising an
old address. Hence, people trying to contact foo.org using their
published contact email address were sending information to a concurrent
organization...

Splendid!

Security is a two edges blade: it can cut the throat of a opponent, or
cut your hand if you don't have a safety handle. In this case, it can be
used to probe for information precisely by crafting an incorrect message
to trigger error.
-- 
Thierry Laronde 
 http://www.kergis.com/
http://kertex.kergis.com/
 http://nunc-et-hic.fr/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

--
9fans: 9fans
Permalink: 
https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T629509e6dbb32f37-Mf366d007d0da2425cff92a2d
Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription