Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]
How you react to being told that you are behaving poorly, and it’s neither appreciated or respected, speaks volumes. It’s telling, as you say, that your take is to get defensive and, honestly, shitty. Emotional maturity may be lacking in general on the list but please do not posture from some imagined moral high ground. It’s so tiring, just do better. > On Jan 25, 2024, at 15:38, Don A. Bailey wrote: > > It’s telling that you see a difference of opinion as a temper tantrum. A > major problem with people’s perspective of 9front and the current plan 9 > community, honestly. > > > >> On Jan 25, 2024, at 6:35 PM, Jacob Moody wrote: >> >> On 1/25/24 16:03, Don A. Bailey wrote: >>> I’m aware you’re a member of the foundation. >>> >>> What I want I think I’ve made clear. I do not want to see a formal release >>> of Plan 9 that includes anything from the 9front project. I do not want >>> 9front merged with what I tongue-in-cheek term “mainline” (9legacy / 9pio >>> updated patch sets). I’d rather 9front stay its own thing. I’m certain >>> there are a lot of relevant contributions within 9front but I think its >>> place is as its own niche system. >>> >> >> Who is going to do the work? Do you want to do the work? Do you think this >> temper tantrum you've been throwing on >> this list all day is somehow going to convince anyone else to work with/for >> you? >> It's rich that you feel like you can dictate rules (no 9front code) but have >> no interest in making any effort >> yourself to make that a reality. >> >> I await your "better" plan 9. >> >> - moody >> -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M5e2045655be1ffcf58dd6f0a Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]
This is incredibly rude and tone-deaf. Your convictions aside, dismissing an opinion like this is simply stonewalling, and quite frankly obliterated whatever respect I may have started to develop for you. > On Jan 25, 2024, at 08:44, Don Bailey wrote: > > I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. > > If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both as a > user and a developer. > > I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any interest > in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be. > > D > > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:40 AM hiro via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > > I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I’d prefer > > the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to only receive > > patches through them. > > Are you speaking as part of the foundation? As a developer? Or as a User? > > Me, as a user, I would also appreciate if the foundation (or the real > bell-labs unix room heritage, before the foundation existed) would > "manage" something. for example development and continuous hosting of > the sources server. This doesn't seem to be the case. > > I also would appreciate the making available of patches by the > foundation. I have no clue where their codebase is moving in the last > few years as there was no single commit (or even simple patch via > email) received from them. > > I think the reason the 9front repo is continuing to stay split "off" > is because the bell-labs servers have all been shut down. As a result > the community has stepped in to donate their own time, money, server > resources, sweat and blood, etc. to keep a usable plan 9 version and > community (that is willing to stay patches) alive. > > It is extremely unfortunate, but the pressure behind the freely > contributed code ended up being stronger than the ability to negotiate > with the empty halls of bell-labs. So as a result lots of community > members are able to contribute quite effectively. > > To me the legend of what must have been the unix room will always stay > alive, and I will continue to use it as a benchmark to measure my own > team's success against. But if I cannot be part of the group of cool > kids that came out of this, I can at least have my own bell-labs, with > blackjack and hookers. In my head. > > Don, I wish you great technical collaborations. At least this is what > I have came here for, and have tried to take what caused awe in me and > keep them alive and infect others with all that. Maybe you can submit > another patch to sources some day soon. > > hiro > 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Mea8a6ab9c4680234e71712fc Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] New to plan9
(For system-specific booting. It will use default, by default if that suits your needs) > On Oct 19, 2021, at 10:47 AM, antonio@gmail.com wrote: > > > For PXE boot from a CPU server, I don't remember all the configuration, but I > remember that you have to create a file with the MAC of the Ethernet client > that you are using for pxe boot. > it is in /cfg/pxe > You have to create a file with the name of the mac address, and then you have > to copy the content of the default file. Then you can edit it to your needs, > or you can mix the content of the default file with the content of example-pi > file and try to find the configuration that works for you. > 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T4e8989ee42951fa0-M1d68ae3102713c0ba1ec9150 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] New to plan9
I went all in on my first foray, and set up discrete fs + auth + cpu + terms, it was fun but wholly unnecessary. Eventually I settled into fs/auth on one, and a cpu server on the side with drawterm/terms. This was all 9front, which has some niceties for networked setups, including cpu listeners for fs/auth to maintain without needing serial/gui/ssh access. > On Oct 15, 2021, at 10:31 AM, joseph turco wrote: > > > Thank you to both of you for the responses. I guess getting deep into the man > pages is how I'll have to go about running things. I'm actually considering > taking the OS off my pi, and loading it onto the desktop I have as a CPU/file > server. I can get legacy9 to boot on it, I just need to figure out how to get > it to work and connect the pi via TCP. I also have though of just leaving the > running system on my pi, also load it on the old desktop, and just have both > boxes talk to each other. The first idea sounds more fun but I'm unsure. > >> On Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 10:09 AM sirjofri >> wrote: >> >> 15.10.2021 15:05:25 Sigrid Solveig Haflínudóttir : >> >> > A few useful links to get started: >> >> To add more infos for community stuff and more: >> >> (Of course, read as much as possible, the man pages, wiki, fqa, articles, >> papers, My notes here are just for you to get a small overview of >> the community.) >> >> In general, you'll notice that the bubble is quite small. You'll see the >> same people hanging around and actually meet with people rather than >> writing as an anonymous person to other anonymous persons. I was active >> for less than a month and people started recognizing me. >> >> Here are places people hang out and discuss stuff: >> >> Mailing lists. There are few of them. The 9fans mailing list (here), I >> won't say anything about it (you are already here). >> >> There's also the 9front mailing list for 9front-specific topics (9front >> is a fork); as well as the inferno mailing list. >> >> For chatting there are multiple channels: >> >> The 9fans discord server [1] if you prefer modern apps. We have a voice >> chat and some channels, as well as a bot. Some of the channels are >> bridged to a matrix channel and (through that) to the ##9fans irc on >> oftc. >> >> The ##9fans oftc (actually multiple channels) channels. >> >> The #cat-v channel on oftc is often used for 9front discussion (and cat-v >> discussion). >> >> 9p.zone (which is also the web page) has its own chat system known as >> gridchat (short: grid). It's a 9p filesystem you can import into your >> system and read-write the files there. There are some very special people >> there who don't usually hang out in the other community channels. >> >> In general you'll meet many people in multiple channels depending on >> their preference. You can ask your questions everywhere and hopefully >> they'll be answered. >> >> Welcome to the community! >> >> sirjofri >> >> --- >> [1] https://discord.gg/AMDKS4wdVR > > 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T4e8989ee42951fa0-M68a8c87db63662c4298b76ad Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] porting projects...
https://github.com/debauchee/barrier > On Sep 4, 2021, at 9:19 AM, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> >> i tried and faild to get cinap’s historic synergy client to work with a >> current synergy server on windows/linux/osx etc. > > the guy behind synergy at some point tried to convert his free > software project into a startup for making money. > even before that transition he was a hell to send patches to. i don't > recommend depending on this rude person in any form at all. > > instead maybe there's a synergy fork somewhere based on the older free > code. that should be no big deal to keep around forever. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Td6b6b3e98268ecde-Mfff2322174718698f16e019a Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Posix implementation of Plan 9 cpu(1) (Was: [9fans] Command to set samterm label)
I’ve started toying with that very idea Lucio, but I haven’t had much time to really vet the ideas. My work has been specifically for 9front and rcpu > On Jul 18, 2021, at 9:53 PM, Lucio De Re wrote: > > On 7/19/21, adr via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: >> [ ...]. Running samterm locally is way more efficient than >> using X forwarding. >> > I have adopted on my Linux (Mint) workstations - plural - the paradigm: > > ssh -fX remote acme -l lib/task.acme # for different tasks > > and it works even remotely pretty adequately. The remotes tend to be > pretty slick Debian servers, but even locally that is a boon (NetBSD > rules the Posix roost in my office). > > What I can't do is to do the same from the Plan 9 workstation that I > still prefer for development. I was bemoaning this in some notes to > myself just before reading the exchange. > > Now, it is very common, even after all these years of Plan 9 use, for > me to miss the wood for the trees. I think, not very deeply, that P9P > "cpu" running on the remote Posix server might be what I need - Plan 9 > SSH and I seem to be sworn enemies and X-fdorwarding is not even a > twinkle in SSH's eye - and here I note that Steve Simon's cpu server > for Windows has not been included in P9P (I heard Steve bring that up, > but I have never explored it as I don't own a Windows platform). > > In short, is it out of the question to cpu into a Posix server to > initiate an acme session, rather than using SSH to forward X? > > Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T09fcdec9c87bfde4-M6851a6eec7243162cd9dc1d7 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] go under plan9 on the radpberry pi?
Go builds on Plan9 suffer from the post-1.9 performance regression. > On Sep 19, 2019, at 10:29 PM, Steve Simon wrote: > > hi, > > my plan was to build and run/debug go on a raspberry pi 4 running plan9, not > to cross compile. > > i am confident in the linux cross compile environment i was just concerned > about the plan9 os/runtime support for the pi. > > i guess it comes down to plan9 os interface for the arm. > > people said it is painful, you mean the pi is slow? > > thanks for the help. > > -Steve > >> On 20 Sep 2019, at 5:37 am, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: >> >> Matthew Veety writes: >> >>> Building anything on a raspberry pi is a bit of a chore. I highly=20 >>> recommend running go on your cpu server and/or local to your filesystem.=20 >>> The generated binaries seem to work fine. >> >> Go does wonderfully when it comes to generating binaries for >> non-native architectures. I have a few Go-based tools I use at >> work that I build on any number of archictures (macos, freebsd, >> openbsd, linux / armX, i386, amd64)) that I need to run on one or >> many of the above. They all just work. Makes debugging a breeze. >> >> But now that they are succumbing to the shared lib/obj doctrine, I'm sure >> I will soon go back to writing C code, since the advantage of those >> static go binaries is about to be lost :-( > >
Re: [9fans] go under plan9 on the radpberry pi?
I’ve used it, it works fine. Building on a raspberry pi, on the other hand is a chore when using Go. > On Sep 19, 2019, at 3:46 PM, Bakul Shah wrote: > > On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 22:41:48 +0100 Steve Simon wrote: >> >> does go run under plan9 on the radpberry pi or only on x86? > > I haven't tried a native build but cross-compiling with > >cd `go env GOROOT`/src >GOOS=plan9 GOARCH=arm ./bootstrap.bash > > seems to work. bunzip2 the resulting .tbz file in $home & then > bind -a $home/go-plan9-arm-bootstrap/bin /bin > > Only lightly tested. >
Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements.
i tried to solve that problem on Linux, with a wm that tiled set-sized windows in a floating grid, but it was always very, very hacky. (For the curious, github.com/halfwit/hwwm) On Tue., Apr. 16, 2019, 9:59 p.m. Lucio De Re, wrote: > On 4/16/19, Marshall Conover wrote: > > [ ... ] > > As an aside, Lucio, I'd second Ethan in that it's probably worth taking a > > look; I'd be surprised if there was more actual code to change than there > > was just ramp-up time to understand what you need to change, and a > > one-or-two hour excursion into the code would probably get you how much > > ramp-up time you need, at which point you could probably make the final > > call on whether to move forward. > > > Thanks to both of you for the hint. My problem, spelled out neatly > above, is that I have no idea how one targets the correct "window" in > X. I have completely swallowed the Plan 9 kool-aid of fine-grained > namespace separation and can't contemplate how xnest gets it wrong. > > By the same token, incidentally, I've been wondering what the X > equivalent of 9's window could be: nowhere in X's user space have I > found a way to spawn a task in a window that matches the geometry I > specify, unless that task includes the geometry among the command line > arguments. That bit of philosophy shows so clearly how different Plan > 9 and Unix really are. > > I will look, however. Frankly, if rio could provide a "little" more > support, one may be able to run firefox (I'm assuming chrome/chromium > isn't quite as liberated) in a rio window, but my efforts a while ago > flopped completely - for which part of me is greatly relieved: somehow > a firefox window on a Plan 9 background would be a constant thorn in > my side. > > Lucio. > > PS: I did look at rio, not that long ago. But I think the problem > extends to individual graphic commands. I'll see if I can get catclock > to behave itself, next. Or shove the xnext magic into a rio option. > >
Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements.
That's good to note. (I don't consider "WinGnoKDE" a good counterpoint anyways) but for example I have reasonably debilitating carpal tunnel issues, and the heavy mouse use is a major bane to my general enjoyment in Rio when it happens. On Mon., Apr. 15, 2019, 2:00 p.m. Ethan Gardener, wrote: > On Mon, Apr 15, 2019, at 7:43 AM, Michael Misch wrote: > > The whole thing is a good discussion. plan9's design works, very well; > for about 80% of would be users. For differently abled people in any > capacity it all falls apart quickly. > > Begging your pardon, but for *this* differently abled person it's a huge > improvement on WinGnoKDE. Anyone who wants to make *text selection* > complicated ought not to be allowed near a computer, to say nothing of the > numerous other problems which get in the way of just getting accustomed to > and fluently using traditional GUI. > >
Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements.
The whole thing is a good discussion. plan9's design works, very well; for about 80% of would be users. For differently abled people in any capacity it all falls apart quickly. it's such a simple system though it wouldn't take much work to extend support wherever needed. On Mon., Apr. 15, 2019, 12:26 a.m. Devine Lu Linvega, wrote: > Michelangelo would have been “middle-click!? Hell no”. > > > On Apr 15, 2019, at 3:12 PM, Bakul Shah wrote: > > > > Michelangelo or Rodin didn't have to worry about function, only form. > > > > Da Vinci on the other hand > > > >> On Apr 14, 2019, at 10:07 PM, Lucio De Re wrote: > >> > >> The thing is, a UI is a combination of far too many personal tastes > >> and habits and a GUI multi-dimensionally more so. It's like a marble > >> slab that needs a Michelangelo to turn it into an image. > >> > >> We've had one Michelangelo and a Rodin and only a few Greek sculptors > >> in the past, what, three thousand years? Do we really think that a > >> near infinite number of monkeys is now going to solve that problem, > >> specially when the marble slab is undergoing its own metamorphosis > >> underfoot? > >> > >> Good luck! > >> > >> Lucio. > >> > > > > > > >
