Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 12:56:18 -0400, Daniel Lyons wrote: If that's something you're thinking about doing, let me suggest you take a look at Clojure. The Java aspect aside, it is a good compromise in design between Scheme and Lisp and introduces lots of good ideas. This is something I would want to do but I have a long way to go with Plan 9 before I think I could be serious about it. Sorry, I'm a Scheme programmer, and Clojure does not appeal to me in enough aspects (very few, actually) to make me even learn how to use it. Rather, I think a very small number of simple conveniences would suffice to make Scheme programming very convenient with Acme. Already, most of the necessary features are there, and I am using Acme pleasantly right now in my daily Scheme work. Aaron W. Hsu -- Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. -- C. S. Lewis
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
On Fri, 14 Aug 2009 19:31:08 -0400, Noah Evans wrote: For Lisp variants ask Alex Shinn(alexsh...@gmail.com), he's got an interesting scheme implementation mostly working. It's a summer of code project this year. Indeed, there are a number of fairly portable Scheme implementations that I could see working with Plan 9. Aaron W. Hsu -- Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. -- C. S. Lewis
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 06:34:03 -0400, Akshat Kumar wrote: Speaking of fonts in Acme, using the default, I spent extra amount of time tracking down a bug in my gs(1) source, which was the mix-up between -lijs and -Iijs. Apparently 'I' is shorter than 'l' by some portion of a pixel. I use Times in Acme. That distinguishes things pretty well. Aaron W. Hsu -- Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. -- C. S. Lewis
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
On Aug 14, 2009, at 12:28 PM, "Roman V. Shaposhnik" wrote: I looked at it for a while and came with a realization that it could be just a tad heavier than what I need for most of the stuff I do. Plus I'm not sure how to port it to Plan9 without first porting the JVM. I actually meant to create a new Plan 9-specific Lisp variant, perhaps stealing some of Clojure's new ideas. Especially with respect to parallelism, the standard library and a few other things. I like that I can call into Java libs from Clojure but that's not the most interesting thing about it to me. Another thing which would be cool would be something like scsh. -- Daniel Lyons
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
Speaking of fonts in Acme, using the default, I spent extra amount of time tracking down a bug in my gs(1) source, which was the mix-up between -lijs and -Iijs. Apparently 'I' is shorter than 'l' by some portion of a pixel. how could I possibly miss that ak P.S.: This isn't Acme's fault - it's the same trouble in the font I'm using to type this message - in GMail in Firefox.
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
> For Lisp variants ask Alex Shinn(alexsh...@gmail.com), he's got an > interesting scheme implementation mostly working. It's a summer of > code project this year. See also my post: http://ninetimes.cat-v.org/news/2009/07/19/0/ and the included link to setting it up on Plan 9. Best, ak
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
For Lisp variants ask Alex Shinn(alexsh...@gmail.com), he's got an interesting scheme implementation mostly working. It's a summer of code project this year. On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Daniel Lyons wrote: > > On Aug 13, 2009, at 3:14 AM, Aaron W. Hsu wrote: > >> So, I was browsing around the other day looking at Acme resources, and I >> discovered an old post from 1995 wherein someone advocated the use of >> proportional fonts for programming in Acme. This surprised me, to say the >> least. He even went as far as to mention that SML was the language they were >> using, and had managed to get a decent indenting pattern for it that was >> just as readable, without messing things up for proportional font users. >> >> I have to admit that I'm a bit skeptical about whether such a technique >> actually works, and so, I thought I would pose some questions to you. > > Bjarne Stroustrup actually advocates this style in "The C++ Programming > Language." > > This discussion reminds me of this elastic tab stops concept: > > http://nickgravgaard.com/elastictabstops/ > > I don't think it made it into any editors, but it would support the kind of > fancy alignment I like to have in my code while also supporting real fonts, > which I would prefer to use. > >> Thirdly, would you continue using proportional width fonts in cases like >> Lisp code, where you very often see something like the following indentation >> scheme, and how would you resolve these indentation problems with >> proportional width fonts if you did continue to use them? >> >> (let ([foo bar] >> [something else]) >> (some-func (called again) >> (with fun indentation) >> (and yet) >> (another))) > > > I bet you could set up Emacs to use a proportional font. It can do anything, > right? :) > > I'd love it if Acme or Plan 9 had good support for some kind of Lisp > variant. > > — > Daniel Lyons > > >
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
> Speaking of which (or may be not ;-)) is there anybody using Lua > on Plan9? > Roman. Kenji has written a webdav server for pegasus (Kenji's httpd branch) using lua.
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
On Fri, 2009-08-14 at 10:49 -0600, Daniel Lyons wrote: > On Aug 14, 2009, at 3:15 AM, Aaron W. Hsu wrote: > > > On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 13:58:39 -0400, Daniel Lyons > > wrote: > > > >> I'd love it if Acme or Plan 9 had good support for some kind of > >> Lisp variant. > > > > Maybe that should be my next side project. > > > If that's something you're thinking about doing, let me suggest you > take a look at Clojure. The Java aspect aside, it is a good compromise > in design between Scheme and Lisp and introduces lots of good ideas. > This is something I would want to do but I have a long way to go with > Plan 9 before I think I could be serious about it. I looked at it for a while and came with a realization that it could be just a tad heavier than what I need for most of the stuff I do. Plus I'm not sure how to port it to Plan9 without first porting the JVM. Thanks, Roman.
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
On Aug 14, 2009, at 3:15 AM, Aaron W. Hsu wrote: On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 13:58:39 -0400, Daniel Lyons > wrote: I'd love it if Acme or Plan 9 had good support for some kind of Lisp variant. Maybe that should be my next side project. If that's something you're thinking about doing, let me suggest you take a look at Clojure. The Java aspect aside, it is a good compromise in design between Scheme and Lisp and introduces lots of good ideas. This is something I would want to do but I have a long way to go with Plan 9 before I think I could be serious about it. — Daniel Lyons
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 13:58:39 -0400, Daniel Lyons wrote: I'd love it if Acme or Plan 9 had good support for some kind of Lisp variant. Maybe that should be my next side project. Aaron W. Hsu -- Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. -- C. S. Lewis
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
> Speaking of which (or may be not ;-)) is there anybody using Lua > on Plan9? I am "playing" with Lua on my Plan9 computer... BTW I have found a difference between Linux and Plan9 version: - Linux version can handle "dividing by 0" without crash of Lua interpretter, - Plan9 version cannot. ;-) Pavel
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 3:58 AM, Roman V. Shaposhnik wrote: > On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 11:55 -0600, Daniel Lyons wrote: > > I'd love it if Acme or Plan 9 had good support for some kind of Lisp > > variant. > > Speaking of which (or may be not ;-)) is there anybody using Lua > on Plan9? > > Thanks, > Roman. > > P.S. The more I look into Lua (as a way to help C refuge start > doing some functional stuff) the more it seems that the two have > a lot in common when it comes to software architecture. > > > Last time I tried, the standard Lua compiled out of the box under the APE. Great little language. I use it in my day job (together with Erlang). It's implementation is indeed just as enlightening as the Plan 9 code. An exercise in doing exactly what is required and no more. Very elegant in my eyes. Robby
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
On Thu, 2009-08-13 at 11:55 -0600, Daniel Lyons wrote: > I'd love it if Acme or Plan 9 had good support for some kind of Lisp > variant. Speaking of which (or may be not ;-)) is there anybody using Lua on Plan9? Thanks, Roman. P.S. The more I look into Lua (as a way to help C refuge start doing some functional stuff) the more it seems that the two have a lot in common when it comes to software architecture.
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
On Thu Aug 13 18:36:41 EDT 2009, rminn...@gmail.com wrote: > I always get a kick out of this > exchange:http://www.usenet.com/newsgroups/comp.os.plan9/msg02052.html it took me at least 5 seconds to realize that abaco was formatting that page correctly. ☺ the key to the joke, however, is there is a vast difference between leading indentation and stuff like if(x == 1 && y == 2) which just doesn't work well with proportional fonts. i guess this email is an excercize in making presotto unfunny in 3 easy steps. - erik
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
I always get a kick out of this exchange:http://www.usenet.com/newsgroups/comp.os.plan9/msg02052.html
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Daniel Lyons wrote: > > On Aug 13, 2009, at 3:14 AM, Aaron W. Hsu wrote: > > So, I was browsing around the other day looking at Acme resources, and I >> discovered an old post from 1995 wherein someone advocated the use of >> proportional fonts for programming in Acme. This surprised me, to say the >> least. He even went as far as to mention that SML was the language they were >> using, and had managed to get a decent indenting pattern for it that was >> just as readable, without messing things up for proportional font users. >> >> I have to admit that I'm a bit skeptical about whether such a technique >> actually works, and so, I thought I would pose some questions to you. >> > > Bjarne Stroustrup actually advocates this style in "The C++ Programming > Language." > > This discussion reminds me of this elastic tab stops concept: > > http://nickgravgaard.com/elastictabstops/ > > I don't think it made it into any editors, but it would support the kind of > fancy alignment I like to have in my code while also supporting real fonts, > which I would prefer to use. > > Thirdly, would you continue using proportional width fonts in cases like >> Lisp code, where you very often see something like the following indentation >> scheme, and how would you resolve these indentation problems with >> proportional width fonts if you did continue to use them? >> >>(let ([foo bar] >> [something else]) >> (some-func (called again) >>(with fun indentation) >> (and yet) >> (another))) >> > > > I bet you could set up Emacs to use a proportional font. It can do > anything, right? :) > > I'd love it if Acme or Plan 9 had good support for some kind of Lisp > variant. Acme has good enough support for Lisp in that I can edit the program buffer, and then re-load it all in Acme via the "win" program. I use it with SBCL this way on my mac actually. Emacs + SLIME is pretty nice, but sometimes quite a bit more than I need. > > > — > Daniel Lyons > > >
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
On Aug 13, 2009, at 3:14 AM, Aaron W. Hsu wrote: So, I was browsing around the other day looking at Acme resources, and I discovered an old post from 1995 wherein someone advocated the use of proportional fonts for programming in Acme. This surprised me, to say the least. He even went as far as to mention that SML was the language they were using, and had managed to get a decent indenting pattern for it that was just as readable, without messing things up for proportional font users. I have to admit that I'm a bit skeptical about whether such a technique actually works, and so, I thought I would pose some questions to you. Bjarne Stroustrup actually advocates this style in "The C++ Programming Language." This discussion reminds me of this elastic tab stops concept: http://nickgravgaard.com/elastictabstops/ I don't think it made it into any editors, but it would support the kind of fancy alignment I like to have in my code while also supporting real fonts, which I would prefer to use. Thirdly, would you continue using proportional width fonts in cases like Lisp code, where you very often see something like the following indentation scheme, and how would you resolve these indentation problems with proportional width fonts if you did continue to use them? (let ([foo bar] [something else]) (some-func (called again) (with fun indentation) (and yet) (another))) I bet you could set up Emacs to use a proportional font. It can do anything, right? :) I'd love it if Acme or Plan 9 had good support for some kind of Lisp variant. — Daniel Lyons
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 09:14:19 GMT "Aaron W. Hsu" wrote: > So, I was browsing around the other day looking at Acme resources, and I > discovered an old post from 1995 wherein someone advocated the use of > proportional fonts for programming in Acme. This surprised me, to say the > least. He even went as far as to mention that SML was the language they > were using, and had managed to get a decent indenting pattern for it that > was just as readable, without messing things up for proportional font > users. > > I have to admit that I'm a bit skeptical about whether such a technique > actually works, and so, I thought I would pose some questions to you. > > Firstly, how many of you using Acme for programming on a daily basis remap > your fonts so that the fixed width font is the main one that you use? > > Secondly, if you do use proportional width fonts, why, and what troubles > did you encounter; what benefits did you encounter? I don't program on a daily basis, but using a proportional font in rio I'm finding it so much easier on the eyes that I hold back from opening xterms and from switching acme windows into the fixed-width font. > > Thirdly, would you continue using proportional width fonts in cases like > Lisp code, where you very often see something like the following > indentation scheme, and how would you resolve these indentation problems > with proportional width fonts if you did continue to use them? > > (let ([foo bar] > [something else]) > (some-func (called again) > (with fun indentation) > (and yet) > (another))) This particular form of indentation is the only thing I'd be worried about, and where a great deal of nesting is not required it's never strictly necessary. In a certain scripting environment with a C-like syntax and a very weak editor I got into the habit of treating parentheses as block structure when the parameter list is long: llSetPrimitiveParams([ PRIM_TYPE, PRIM_TYPE_CYLINDER, 0, , hollow, <0, 0, 0>, <1, 1, 0>, <0, 0, 0> ]); That's not a practical style in Lisp, of course. I've thought about this in the past as I was never entirely comfortable with some very common indenting styles. Gnu style has 2-character indents, that's not an indent, it's natural roughness! The Linux kernel style on the other hand has full tabs. 8-character tabs break things up a little too much for my eyes so I set my editor to have narrower tabs when loading code from the kernel tree. This worked great so long as no code had a special indent (as Aaron's Lisp code above) nor was aligned after the indent (e.g. comments on the same line as code). This eventually led me to consider an editor which dynamically managed indents, displaying the code quite differently to the fixed indents in the source file. Such an editor could work well with proportional fonts and s-expressions together, but I can't work out whether it would be 'too clever' - i.e. irritating. -- Ethan Grammatikidis Those who are slower at parsing information must necessarily be faster at problem-solving.
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 10:14 AM, Aaron W. Hsu wrote: > So, I was browsing around the other day looking at Acme resources, and I > discovered an old post from 1995 wherein someone advocated the use of > proportional fonts for programming in Acme. I've been programming using Wily, Acme, and Acme SAC for 15 years now, and this has always been using proportional fonts. Very, very rarely do I need to look at fixed font representation, and I can't remember when the last time actually was? I am so used to this, that I find it difficult to read code in a fixed font, color overloaded, highlighting editor. All the flashiness detracts from the code I'm trying to understand. Sometimes when I have to understand a bit of foreign code, I go through the code and re-indent to fit my view of the world. I use this as an exercise to help me understand what the code does, not because I don't like the style. For code that uses brackets of some persuasion for grouping code, the double-click text selection shows me exactly the grouping. And I don't get mislead by wrong indentation very easily. Proportional fonts can also greatly reduce pointless discussions about coding style. Robby
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
2009/8/13 Aaron W. Hsu : > Firstly, how many of you using Acme for programming on a daily basis remap > your fonts so that the fixed width font is the main one that you use? i use proportional fonts in acme for programming. > Secondly, if you do use proportional width fonts, why, and what troubles did > you encounter; what benefits did you encounter? i use them because they're more readable, and i get more characters per line than in a similarly sized fixed-width font. in C-like syntax, everything works just fine; a single tab character is ideal for indentation. use of tabs other than at the start of a line won't guarantee alignment with other fonts, but this rarely matters too much. in LISP, i sometimes ended up using a fixed-width font, due to the convention of aligning a subform with part of its parent, as you point out. variable-width fonts can work ok in lisp, although the indentation tends to end up slightly non-standard (although still passable). in haskell, i used proportional spacing with single-tab indentation, and it worked just fine apart from, AFAIR, multiple assignments for a single let - i just always used let...in. > Thirdly, would you continue using proportional width fonts in cases like > Lisp code, where you very often see something like the following indentation > scheme, and how would you resolve these indentation problems with > proportional width fonts if you did continue to use them? > > (let ([foo bar] > [something else]) > (some-func (called again) > (with fun indentation) > (and yet) > (another))) i presume you meant this: (let ([foo bar] [something else]) (some-func (called again) (with fun indentation) (and yet) (another))) using a varwidth font, i'd format this as: (let ([foo bar] [something else]) (some-func (called again) (with fun indentation) (and yet) (another))) (note 4-space indent, not 2-space indent for the some-func arguments. not perfect, but ok, i reckon) i found unlike macros, functions rarely need multiline continuation, but i think the case is arguable. as i said, i've done it both ways. PS. i'd really like to see an acme-integrated lisp environment. one of these years i'll get around to it...
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
"Aaron W. Hsu" writes:
> Secondly, if you do use proportional width fonts, why, and what
> troubles did you encounter; what benefits did you encounter?
You can't very well engage in weird formatting tricks, but I'm not much
a fan of those anyway. IMO, the more attractive letters and generally
lesser character width more than make up for the inability to precisely
align columns that don't contain whitespace. I just use tabs to give
myself a semantic clue.
> Thirdly, would you continue using proportional width fonts in cases
> like Lisp code, where you very often see something like the following
> indentation scheme,
No. Lisp indentation is hairy enough that I'd rather have the editor do
it anyway (I'll take a structure editor too, if you please), so Acme is
right out. Lisp code is so structurally complex that the indentation
scheme I use in C doesn't work so well. I really want arguments to a
function to begin at the same column, and for macro bodies to be
indented by two characters precisely, so I don't get hopelessly lost. I
just go on back to Emacs for Lisp coding.
> and how would you resolve these indentation problems with proportional
> width fonts if you did continue to use them?
I'd make leading spaces inherit their width from the characters above.
(let ((foo bar)
(something else))
(some-func (called again)
(with fun indentation)
(and yet)
(another)))
So in this example, the first space on line two would have the width of
"(", the second the width of an "l", and so on. But the space in
"something else" uses whatever width is defined in the font, since
spacing would get weird otherwise.
You couldn't do
(let ((foo bar)
(something else))
...)
and expect proper alignment, but like I said, I don't like that trick
anyway.
Re: [9fans] Using proportional fonts in Acme for Programming
I always use proportional, 10 years ish now I always use tabs not spaces for indenting I don't remember it ever being a problem, certainly not one unsolved by clicking on Font
