Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p
since most of the follow-up discussion went sideways: Anyone know the state of the art of writing 9p clients/servers in tcl? at some point in time it seemed to be http://wiki.tcl.tk/15632 (but I seriously do hope you already found that) Axel - nowadays also enjoying go
Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p
And look at it this way: delegation helps the economy by employing people and selling processors and memory :-) I hope this is sarcasm?
Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p
And look at it this way: delegation helps the economy by employing people and selling processors and memory :-) http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2011/7/109885-the-case-for-ramcloud/fulltext
Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p
On 10/09/2011 08:04 AM, Russ Cox wrote: On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 8:02 PM, L Nleonardne...@gmail.com wrote: Anyone know the state of the art of writing 9p clients/servers in tcl? I believe the state of the art is not to use tcl. :-) I'm having fun writing 9p clients in Go. IMHO, That Go or Go-language thingy seems to be an overkill to me for that matter; that's just an opinion and opinions may differ. The best portable and efficient intermediate level language is C and I hope it will remain a 'lingua franca' for computer programmers for years to come ;) -- Balwinder S bdheeman Dheeman (http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/)
Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p
C is a low level language, not intermediate. In the second decade of the 21st century is it too much to ask for garbage collection and type safety? Hmm. I'm probably just feeding a troll. Paul On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 2:05 AM, Balwinder S Dheeman bsd.sans...@anu.homelinux.net wrote: On 10/09/2011 08:04 AM, Russ Cox wrote: On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 8:02 PM, L Nleonardne...@gmail.com wrote: Anyone know the state of the art of writing 9p clients/servers in tcl? I believe the state of the art is not to use tcl. :-) I'm having fun writing 9p clients in Go. IMHO, That Go or Go-language thingy seems to be an overkill to me for that matter; that's just an opinion and opinions may differ. The best portable and efficient intermediate level language is C and I hope it will remain a 'lingua franca' for computer programmers for years to come ;) -- Balwinder S bdheeman Dheeman (http://werc.homelinux.net/**contact/ http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/ ) -- I'm migrating my email. plalo...@telus.net will soon be disconnected. Please use paul.a.lalo...@gmail.com from now on.
Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p
It's not necessary that you're feeding a troll, in my opinion. I actually agree with the idea that C is enough. I don't understand why you need garbage collection ... why do you need to have garbage in the first place? Just because time goes by does not mean everything should keep on changing you know. People have to understand that certain technologies can just stay as they are, if they work well. Simon On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Paul Lalonde paul.a.lalo...@gmail.com wrote: C is a low level language, not intermediate. In the second decade of the 21st century is it too much to ask for garbage collection and type safety? Hmm. I'm probably just feeding a troll. Paul On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 2:05 AM, Balwinder S Dheeman bsd.sans...@anu.homelinux.net wrote: On 10/09/2011 08:04 AM, Russ Cox wrote: On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 8:02 PM, L Nleonardne...@gmail.com wrote: Anyone know the state of the art of writing 9p clients/servers in tcl? I believe the state of the art is not to use tcl. :-) I'm having fun writing 9p clients in Go. IMHO, That Go or Go-language thingy seems to be an overkill to me for that matter; that's just an opinion and opinions may differ. The best portable and efficient intermediate level language is C and I hope it will remain a 'lingua franca' for computer programmers for years to come ;) -- Balwinder S bdheeman Dheeman (http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/) -- I'm migrating my email. plalo...@telus.net will soon be disconnected. Please use paul.a.lalo...@gmail.com from now on.
Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p
I wrote my first significant software project in 1971 in IBM 1620 assembly language. When I got done, I felt I was equipped to develop anything. In my subsequent job in a COBOL shop I became the house curmudgeon, sure that the language just got in the way. But looking back, there is no way we could have accomplished what we did in assembler. It's not that we're not all Von Neumanns, it's that if you want to accomplish bigger and bigger things you have to rely upon inefficient, inexpert automation to assume the burden of detail. Same way with people: you have to delegate, even though you know you can do it 5x better and faster than the people you delegate to. And look at it this way: delegation helps the economy by employing people and selling processors and memory :-) Wes Kussmaul On Mon, 2011-10-10 at 15:51 +0200, simon softnet wrote: It's not necessary that you're feeding a troll, in my opinion. I actually agree with the idea that C is enough. I don't understand why you need garbage collection ... why do you need to have garbage in the first place? Just because time goes by does not mean everything should keep on changing you know. People have to understand that certain technologies can just stay as they are, if they work well. Simon On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Paul Lalonde paul.a.lalo...@gmail.com wrote: C is a low level language, not intermediate. In the second decade of the 21st century is it too much to ask for garbage collection and type safety? Hmm. I'm probably just feeding a troll. Paul On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 2:05 AM, Balwinder S Dheeman bsd.sans...@anu.homelinux.net wrote: On 10/09/2011 08:04 AM, Russ Cox wrote: On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 8:02 PM, L Nleonardne...@gmail.com wrote: Anyone know the state of the art of writing 9p clients/servers in tcl? I believe the state of the art is not to use tcl. :-) I'm having fun writing 9p clients in Go. IMHO, That Go or Go-language thingy seems to be an overkill to me for that matter; that's just an opinion and opinions may differ. The best portable and efficient intermediate level language is C and I hope it will remain a 'lingua franca' for computer programmers for years to come ;) -- Balwinder S bdheeman Dheeman (http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/) -- I'm migrating my email. plalo...@telus.net will soon be disconnected. Please use paul.a.lalo...@gmail.com from now on.
Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p
Speaking as someone who is too old and senile and stupid even to become a High Court Judge, I find the lack of improvements to Tcl to be a major attraction. I don’t need to program in it that often – I maintain one moderately-sized script which hardly ever changes - but when I need to re-visit it, I find that I can pick it up again easily, unlike whatever moving-target language the cool kids are using this week. It also doesn’t hurt that Ousterhout’s book is a model of clarity.
Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p
On Mon Oct 10 09:52:36 EDT 2011, ph.soft...@gmail.com wrote: It's not necessary that you're feeding a troll, in my opinion. I actually agree with the idea that C is enough. I don't understand why you need garbage collection ... why do you need to have garbage in the first place? Just because time goes by does not mean everything should keep on changing you know. People have to understand that certain technologies can just stay as they are, if they work well. need is such a funny word. we don't need keyboards, we can just use toggles. there have been a few other trivial improvments in the day-to-day lives of programmers like bitmap displays, which real computer scientists can ignore. so as time goes on, it's easy for programmers to get a whiggish view of the world. but you're equally correct, that the mere passage of time between x and y is not an argument that either is better. so we're left only to argue this one on the merits of garbage collection. :-) now that i think of it, garbage collection was invented more than a decade before c. so the preceeding two paragraphs have been argued in the moot court. in any event, i think one can consider manual memory management to often be akin to manually managing registerization. there is a good chance that in most cases that an automatic and systematic process can do a better job than an ad hoc one. yet, i program in c most of the time. i don't know of many operating systems written in a automaticly gc'd language. - erik
Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p
In 15 years Tcl has been improved a lot, like any other language. On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 7:21 AM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote: Well, I did 9p clients for testing 15 years ago. It might have been the right thing then; I was even making nfs clients in tcl back then. Would I do it again? No ron
Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p
On Sun Oct 9 02:16:11 EDT 2011, pmarin.m...@gmail.com wrote: In 15 years Tcl has been improved a lot, like any other language. that might not be relevant to ron's point. i think this is almost a geometry problem. if you plot languages in 1997 and late 2011 on the goodness line, it should follow that improving isn't enough to have a sufficiently large goodness factor. the language in question has to be improving fast enough relative to the competition to be in the top bunch (largest x). if you only plot languages similar to tcl on this line, i think you get the same result. in tcl's case, the segment between starting point and today would seem to need to be prohibitively long. (although python made the minimum segment length much shorter by making python 3 incompatable with 2.) - erik
Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p
wut On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 3:12 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: On Sun Oct 9 02:16:11 EDT 2011, pmarin.m...@gmail.com wrote: In 15 years Tcl has been improved a lot, like any other language. that might not be relevant to ron's point. i think this is almost a geometry problem. if you plot languages in 1997 and late 2011 on the goodness line, it should follow that improving isn't enough to have a sufficiently large goodness factor. the language in question has to be improving fast enough relative to the competition to be in the top bunch (largest x). if you only plot languages similar to tcl on this line, i think you get the same result. in tcl's case, the segment between starting point and today would seem to need to be prohibitively long. (although python made the minimum segment length much shorter by making python 3 incompatable with 2.) - erik
Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p
wut http://movie.subtitlr.com/subtitle/show/94536#line121
Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p
On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 8:02 PM, L N leonardne...@gmail.com wrote: Anyone know the state of the art of writing 9p clients/servers in tcl? I believe the state of the art is not to use tcl. :-) I'm having fun writing 9p clients in Go. Russ
Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p
On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 10:31 PM, Russ Cox r...@swtch.com wrote: I believe the state of the art is not to use tcl. :-) I'm having fun writing 9p clients in Go. Russ Sure, tcl isn't as popular as Go right now. Still, tcl is appealing in some ways. http://www.tcl.tk/doc/scripting.html Was wondering if Go could be summarized as Plan 9 in language-space. (Ready... aim... fire) It seems like Plan 9 already got it right in the systems realm. (Arguments against Ousterhout's dichotomy, fire away) Seems like Plan 9 and tcl/tk would complement each other well. Also, this is somewhat unrelated, but I was wondering whether each Go executable contains the garbage collector. (It must, it seems, but just checking). - Leonard
Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p
Hi, Also, this is somewhat unrelated, but I was wondering whether each Go executable contains the garbage collector. (It must, it seems, but just checking). It does. -- vs
Re: [9fans] tcl, 9p
Well, I did 9p clients for testing 15 years ago. It might have been the right thing then; I was even making nfs clients in tcl back then. Would I do it again? No ron
