Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IAccessibleTable2::caption/summary deprecation notes need correcting

[Pete Brunet]

Hi Rich, During another activity I was looking at caption and summary
last night and happened to end up on a W3C site that documents how
tables should be described:
www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/tabular-data.html#table-descriptions-techniques

This shows various techniques:

1) Precede the table with a paragraph and use aria-describedby
referencing that paragraph
2) Use the caption tag
3) Use the details tag in a caption tag (and the example shows a summary
tag under the details tag)
4/5) Embed the table in a figure tag which has a figcaption tag

The third case is the only one showing a summary tag, but it's a child
of the caption tag.  I found an example here:
http://archive.msdn.microsoft.com/mag201212HTML5/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ReleaseId=5925

Looking at the UIA properties of a page with that markup, i.e. a
hierarchy of caption, details, summary, using Inspect with both IE and
FF I saw the full caption text including the summary in the accName /
UIA Name.  From the perspective of caption that makes sense but having
summary as a substring of caption doesn't.

Is this a proper use of the summary tag?  Or is
aria-describedby/labeledby the proper technique?  Is there a better
document that I should be looking at?

Pete

On 10/12/13 5:00 AM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
> Thanks Pete.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Oct 12, 2013, at 12:43 AM, "Pete Brunet"  > wrote:
>
>> The IAccessibleTable2 spec has an error.  The deprecation note on the
>> caption method indicates that a describedBy relation should be used
>> and the deprecation note on the summary method indicates that a
>> labeledBy relation should be used instead.  This is backwards and I
>> will submit a replacement soon.
>>
>> Pete
>> -- 
>> *Pete Brunet*
>> 
>> a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development
>> (512) 467-4706 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell)
>> Skype: pete.brunet
>> IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), ptbru...@live.com (MSN)
>> http://www.a11ysoft.com/about/
>> Ionosphere: WS4G
>> ___
>> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
>> Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org 
>> 
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2

-- 
*Pete Brunet*

a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development
(512) 467-4706 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell)
Skype: pete.brunet
IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), ptbru...@live.com (MSN)
http://www.a11ysoft.com/about/
Ionosphere: WS4G
___
Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2

Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IAccessibleTable2::caption/summary deprecation notes need correcting

[Pete Brunet]

Thank you Janina, That was very helpful. 

On 10/15/13 1:05 PM, Janina Sajka wrote:
> Hi Pete, All:
>
> Janina chiming in here to try and provide overall strategic history.
> I'll leave the technical details to Rich, Steve, and others.
>
> The initial problem is that HTML 5 has obsoleted (deprecated) table
> summary as we knew it in HTML 4.
>
> We tried to get that overturned -- to rinstate summary. Eventually,
> however, we backed off that effort in the expectation that we could
> accomplish the same purpose more strategically.
>
> The goal is that HTML 4's table summary functionality will be taken up
> by ARIA-1.1's ARIA-DescribedAt attribute. We have published our FPWD of
> ARIA-1.1 specifically to put this attribute out for discussion:
>
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2013Sep/0011.html
>
> As always with ARIA, our intent is that this attribute will be usable
> across markup environments, e.g. SVG as well as HTML.
>
> Also, we intend it to be usable on virtually any element. Thus,
> ARIA-DescribedAt could be understood to subsume HTML 4's Table Summary
> as well as HTML 4's (and soon HTML 5's) longdesc, among others.
>
> Meanwhile, we have determined to leave sleeping dogs lie re summary
> encapsulated in caption.
>
> Janina
>
> Pete Brunet writes:
>> Hi Rich, During another activity I was looking at caption and summary
>> last night and happened to end up on a W3C site that documents how
>> tables should be described:
>> www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/tabular-data.html#table-descriptions-techniques
>>
>> This shows various techniques:
>>
>> 1) Precede the table with a paragraph and use aria-describedby
>> referencing that paragraph
>> 2) Use the caption tag
>> 3) Use the details tag in a caption tag (and the example shows a summary
>> tag under the details tag)
>> 4/5) Embed the table in a figure tag which has a figcaption tag
>>
>> The third case is the only one showing a summary tag, but it's a child
>> of the caption tag.  I found an example here:
>> http://archive.msdn.microsoft.com/mag201212HTML5/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ReleaseId=5925
>>
>> Looking at the UIA properties of a page with that markup, i.e. a
>> hierarchy of caption, details, summary, using Inspect with both IE and
>> FF I saw the full caption text including the summary in the accName /
>> UIA Name.  From the perspective of caption that makes sense but having
>> summary as a substring of caption doesn't.
>>
>> Is this a proper use of the summary tag?  Or is
>> aria-describedby/labeledby the proper technique?  Is there a better
>> document that I should be looking at?
>>
>> Pete
>>
>> On 10/12/13 5:00 AM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>>> Thanks Pete.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> On Oct 12, 2013, at 12:43 AM, "Pete Brunet" >> > wrote:
>>>
 The IAccessibleTable2 spec has an error.  The deprecation note on the
 caption method indicates that a describedBy relation should be used
 and the deprecation note on the summary method indicates that a
 labeledBy relation should be used instead.  This is backwards and I
 will submit a replacement soon.

 Pete
 -- 
 *Pete Brunet*
 
 a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development
 (512) 467-4706 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell)
 Skype: pete.brunet
 IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), ptbru...@live.com (MSN)
 http://www.a11ysoft.com/about/
 Ionosphere: WS4G
 ___
 Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
 Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org 
 
 https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2
>> -- 
>> *Pete Brunet*
>> 
>> a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development
>> (512) 467-4706 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell)
>> Skype: pete.brunet
>> IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), ptbru...@live.com (MSN)
>> http://www.a11ysoft.com/about/
>> Ionosphere: WS4G
>> ___
>> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
>> Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2
>

-- 
*Pete Brunet*

a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development
(512) 467-4706 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell)
Skype: pete.brunet
IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), ptbru...@live.com (MSN)
http://www.a11ysoft.com/about/
Ionosphere: WS4G
___
Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2

Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IAccessibleTable2::caption/summary deprecation notes need correcting

[Janina Sajka]

Hi Pete, All:

Janina chiming in here to try and provide overall strategic history.
I'll leave the technical details to Rich, Steve, and others.

The initial problem is that HTML 5 has obsoleted (deprecated) table
summary as we knew it in HTML 4.

We tried to get that overturned -- to rinstate summary. Eventually,
however, we backed off that effort in the expectation that we could
accomplish the same purpose more strategically.

The goal is that HTML 4's table summary functionality will be taken up
by ARIA-1.1's ARIA-DescribedAt attribute. We have published our FPWD of
ARIA-1.1 specifically to put this attribute out for discussion:

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2013Sep/0011.html

As always with ARIA, our intent is that this attribute will be usable
across markup environments, e.g. SVG as well as HTML.

Also, we intend it to be usable on virtually any element. Thus,
ARIA-DescribedAt could be understood to subsume HTML 4's Table Summary
as well as HTML 4's (and soon HTML 5's) longdesc, among others.

Meanwhile, we have determined to leave sleeping dogs lie re summary
encapsulated in caption.

Janina

Pete Brunet writes:
> Hi Rich, During another activity I was looking at caption and summary
> last night and happened to end up on a W3C site that documents how
> tables should be described:
> www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/tabular-data.html#table-descriptions-techniques
> 
> This shows various techniques:
> 
> 1) Precede the table with a paragraph and use aria-describedby
> referencing that paragraph
> 2) Use the caption tag
> 3) Use the details tag in a caption tag (and the example shows a summary
> tag under the details tag)
> 4/5) Embed the table in a figure tag which has a figcaption tag
> 
> The third case is the only one showing a summary tag, but it's a child
> of the caption tag.  I found an example here:
> http://archive.msdn.microsoft.com/mag201212HTML5/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ReleaseId=5925
> 
> Looking at the UIA properties of a page with that markup, i.e. a
> hierarchy of caption, details, summary, using Inspect with both IE and
> FF I saw the full caption text including the summary in the accName /
> UIA Name.  From the perspective of caption that makes sense but having
> summary as a substring of caption doesn't.
> 
> Is this a proper use of the summary tag?  Or is
> aria-describedby/labeledby the proper technique?  Is there a better
> document that I should be looking at?
> 
> Pete
> 
> On 10/12/13 5:00 AM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
> > Thanks Pete.
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Oct 12, 2013, at 12:43 AM, "Pete Brunet"  > > wrote:
> >
> >> The IAccessibleTable2 spec has an error.  The deprecation note on the
> >> caption method indicates that a describedBy relation should be used
> >> and the deprecation note on the summary method indicates that a
> >> labeledBy relation should be used instead.  This is backwards and I
> >> will submit a replacement soon.
> >>
> >> Pete
> >> -- 
> >> *Pete Brunet*
> >> 
> >> a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development
> >> (512) 467-4706 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell)
> >> Skype: pete.brunet
> >> IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), ptbru...@live.com (MSN)
> >> http://www.a11ysoft.com/about/
> >> Ionosphere: WS4G
> >> ___
> >> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
> >> Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org 
> >> 
> >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2
> 
> -- 
> *Pete Brunet*
> 
> a11ysoft - Accessibility Architecture and Development
> (512) 467-4706 (work), (512) 689-4155 (cell)
> Skype: pete.brunet
> IM: ptbrunet (AOL, Google), ptbru...@live.com (MSN)
> http://www.a11ysoft.com/about/
> Ionosphere: WS4G

> ___
> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
> Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2


-- 

Janina Sajka,   Phone:  +1.443.300.2200
sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net
Email:  jan...@rednote.net

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:   http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair,  Protocols & Formats http://www.w3.org/wai/pf
Indie UIhttp://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/

___
Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2