Re: Virtual TSM server - using disk only
- "Gary Bowers" wrote: > My experience with direct connected iSCSI storage on a TSM server is > that it gets abysmal performance unless you turn off Direct IO in > TSM. See other posts for that. It is technically possible, but with > the iSCSI limitation you might not want to use RMD "Raw Device > Mapping" in VMware. I am not sure on this, but it makes sense given > what I have seen and read about here. By the way, NFS and CIFS were > equally bad performers for disk pools with DirectIO turned on. They > seem to really need the filesystem caching. I'm "guessing" that > putting the disks in a VMFS would help buffer the writes, and give > you > decent performance. > > It is something that would need to be tested first. I'm confident > that it would be much faster than WAN connection back to the States. > Yuck. > > Good luck, > > Gary Bowers > Itrus Technologies > > On Mar 11, 2010, at 1:18 PM, Ochs, Duane wrote: > > > Good day everyone, > > Has anyone explored using TSM server (windows) on a VM using Iscsi > > storage ? No library requirement at this time. > > I have multiple European sites within close proximity of each other > > and they have outgrown the WAN coming back to the states. > > Only storage available there is Iscsi and they have a substantial > > VMware implementation which would allow us to ride on a VM if > > feasible/functional. > > > > Thoughts ? > > > > Thanks, > > Duane You probably would want the iSCSI storage linked back via VMWare and .vmdk image files so that Windows has no idea about it being iSCSI or otherwise - just a disk. Gives you more flexibility in the long run, but you would want to test both Direct IO and not to see which performs best in your configuration. I would have thought leaving DIO on would be the best if there's another OS doing filesystem cache somewhere else, but could be wrong there ;)
SV: Virtual TSM server - using disk only
IBM does now support TSM Server in VMware. http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=swg21239546 But they don't guarantee best performance. Best Regards Christian Svensson Cell: +46-70-325 1577 E-mail: christian.svens...@cristie.se Skype: cristie.christian.svensson Supported Platform for CPU2TSM:: http://www.cristie.se/cpu2tsm-supported-platforms Från: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [ads...@vm.marist.edu] för Kelly Lipp [l...@storserver.com] Skickat: den 11 mars 2010 20:31 Till: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU Ämne: Re: Virtual TSM server - using disk only Duane, Works, but isn't supported. So if/when it doesn't work... Kelly Lipp Chief Technology Officer www.storserver.com 719-266-8777 x7105 STORServer solves your data backup challenges. Once and for all. -Original Message- From: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [mailto:ads...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Ochs, Duane Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:19 PM To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: [ADSM-L] Virtual TSM server - using disk only Good day everyone, Has anyone explored using TSM server (windows) on a VM using Iscsi storage ? No library requirement at this time. I have multiple European sites within close proximity of each other and they have outgrown the WAN coming back to the states. Only storage available there is Iscsi and they have a substantial VMware implementation which would allow us to ride on a VM if feasible/functional. Thoughts ? Thanks, Duane
Re: Virtual TSM server - using disk only
My plan was to side step the RDMs and use the native windows ISCSI initiator. I have no VM experience or windows based TSM server experience. All my existing sites are AIX. Any info is appreciated. I do plan on looking into this in detail, just trying to save myself a little time. Thanks. -Original Message- From: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [mailto:ads...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Gary Bowers Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 1:37 PM To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: Virtual TSM server - using disk only My experience with direct connected iSCSI storage on a TSM server is that it gets abysmal performance unless you turn off Direct IO in TSM. See other posts for that. It is technically possible, but with the iSCSI limitation you might not want to use RMD "Raw Device Mapping" in VMware. I am not sure on this, but it makes sense given what I have seen and read about here. By the way, NFS and CIFS were equally bad performers for disk pools with DirectIO turned on. They seem to really need the filesystem caching. I'm "guessing" that putting the disks in a VMFS would help buffer the writes, and give you decent performance. It is something that would need to be tested first. I'm confident that it would be much faster than WAN connection back to the States. Yuck. Good luck, Gary Bowers Itrus Technologies On Mar 11, 2010, at 1:18 PM, Ochs, Duane wrote: > Good day everyone, > Has anyone explored using TSM server (windows) on a VM using Iscsi > storage ? No library requirement at this time. > I have multiple European sites within close proximity of each other > and they have outgrown the WAN coming back to the states. > Only storage available there is Iscsi and they have a substantial > VMware implementation which would allow us to ride on a VM if > feasible/functional. > > Thoughts ? > > Thanks, > Duane
Re: Virtual TSM server - using disk only
My comment concerned the VM portion of the question, not the iSCSI portion. I concur with Gary on that. Kelly Lipp Chief Technology Officer www.storserver.com 719-266-8777 x7105 STORServer solves your data backup challenges. Once and for all. -Original Message- From: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [mailto:ads...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Gary Bowers Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:37 PM To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: [ADSM-L] Virtual TSM server - using disk only My experience with direct connected iSCSI storage on a TSM server is that it gets abysmal performance unless you turn off Direct IO in TSM. See other posts for that. It is technically possible, but with the iSCSI limitation you might not want to use RMD "Raw Device Mapping" in VMware. I am not sure on this, but it makes sense given what I have seen and read about here. By the way, NFS and CIFS were equally bad performers for disk pools with DirectIO turned on. They seem to really need the filesystem caching. I'm "guessing" that putting the disks in a VMFS would help buffer the writes, and give you decent performance. It is something that would need to be tested first. I'm confident that it would be much faster than WAN connection back to the States. Yuck. Good luck, Gary Bowers Itrus Technologies On Mar 11, 2010, at 1:18 PM, Ochs, Duane wrote: > Good day everyone, > Has anyone explored using TSM server (windows) on a VM using Iscsi > storage ? No library requirement at this time. > I have multiple European sites within close proximity of each other > and they have outgrown the WAN coming back to the states. > Only storage available there is Iscsi and they have a substantial > VMware implementation which would allow us to ride on a VM if > feasible/functional. > > Thoughts ? > > Thanks, > Duane
Re: Virtual TSM server - using disk only
My experience with direct connected iSCSI storage on a TSM server is that it gets abysmal performance unless you turn off Direct IO in TSM. See other posts for that. It is technically possible, but with the iSCSI limitation you might not want to use RMD "Raw Device Mapping" in VMware. I am not sure on this, but it makes sense given what I have seen and read about here. By the way, NFS and CIFS were equally bad performers for disk pools with DirectIO turned on. They seem to really need the filesystem caching. I'm "guessing" that putting the disks in a VMFS would help buffer the writes, and give you decent performance. It is something that would need to be tested first. I'm confident that it would be much faster than WAN connection back to the States. Yuck. Good luck, Gary Bowers Itrus Technologies On Mar 11, 2010, at 1:18 PM, Ochs, Duane wrote: Good day everyone, Has anyone explored using TSM server (windows) on a VM using Iscsi storage ? No library requirement at this time. I have multiple European sites within close proximity of each other and they have outgrown the WAN coming back to the states. Only storage available there is Iscsi and they have a substantial VMware implementation which would allow us to ride on a VM if feasible/functional. Thoughts ? Thanks, Duane
Re: Virtual TSM server - using disk only
Duane, Works, but isn't supported. So if/when it doesn't work... Kelly Lipp Chief Technology Officer www.storserver.com 719-266-8777 x7105 STORServer solves your data backup challenges. Once and for all. -Original Message- From: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [mailto:ads...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Ochs, Duane Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:19 PM To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: [ADSM-L] Virtual TSM server - using disk only Good day everyone, Has anyone explored using TSM server (windows) on a VM using Iscsi storage ? No library requirement at this time. I have multiple European sites within close proximity of each other and they have outgrown the WAN coming back to the states. Only storage available there is Iscsi and they have a substantial VMware implementation which would allow us to ride on a VM if feasible/functional. Thoughts ? Thanks, Duane
Virtual TSM server - using disk only
Good day everyone, Has anyone explored using TSM server (windows) on a VM using Iscsi storage ? No library requirement at this time. I have multiple European sites within close proximity of each other and they have outgrown the WAN coming back to the states. Only storage available there is Iscsi and they have a substantial VMware implementation which would allow us to ride on a VM if feasible/functional. Thoughts ? Thanks, Duane
Re: Virtual TSM
Here is a link that specifies what is supported and what isnt. http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?rs=663&tcss=Newsletter&uid=swg21239546 Kevin _ From: Micka [mailto:tsm-fo...@backupcentral.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 8:33 AM To: ADSM-L Subject: [ADSM-L] Virtual TSM Thanks for the info! That's typical of vendors.. any excuse to not support their own product. Although I can't say I have ever needed to use the support but would be handy if it came to it. The VM guest would be hosted on a VMware ESX Server 3i. So if I did virtualise it and had a tape library connected.. they won't support the TSM server at all? Have you ever got it working on a VMware ESX server? +-- |This was sent by micka...@hotmail.com via Backup Central. |Forward SPAM to ab...@backupcentral.com. +--
Re: Virtual TSM
I run TSM 6.1.2.0 in a vSphere environment and it runs just fine on Windows 2008, I would recommend giving it two vCPU's if you can because it will fill up 1 vCPU easy. I use a dedupe filepool on SATA storage, no tape attached. I have tried a virtual TSM server with SCSI tape connection on ESX 2.5.4 and that was an disaster, every time there was a low level SCSI message from the Library I would purple screen of death the ESX host. :) -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [mailto:ads...@vm.marist.edu] Namens Micka Verzonden: dinsdag 2 februari 2010 18:06 Aan: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU Onderwerp: [ADSM-L] Virtual TSM Hi, I'm looking at virtualising our TSM server. The OS on the current server is pretty messed up so I would prefer to start from scratch. Can I install/configure a new server then transfer the database? Version 5, Release 4, Level 4.0 Thanks, Michael +-- |This was sent by micka...@hotmail.com via Backup Central. |Forward SPAM to ab...@backupcentral.com. +--
Re: Virtual TSM
Virtualizing an I/O monster like that is - well, obviously you're not planning on great performance. A POC? A sandbox? A demo? If you just need to have it controlling and using a library, how about setting up an iSCSI bridge? Then the interface to the device is entirely within the virtual machine, and all ESX sees is lots of network I/O. For an actual production implementation, that would suck, but you wouldn't virtualize a production implementation, not of your main TSM server. What COULD make sense, would be a VM with disk and a SERVER device class leading back to a proper I/O monster on the other end of a WAN link. Then it can act as a fast local backup server for the site, and migrate itself empty every day into the main storage, where the stgpool backups and so on take place. I set up such an implementation a couple years ago when the powers that be were convinced it was TSM server performance that makes TDP for AS400 worthlessly slow. -Original Message- From: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [mailto:ads...@vm.marist.edu] On Behalf Of Micka Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 6:33 AM To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: [ADSM-L] Virtual TSM Thanks for the info! That's typical of vendors.. any excuse to not support their own product. Although I can't say I have ever needed to use the support but would be handy if it came to it. The VM guest would be hosted on a VMware ESX Server 3i. So if I did virtualise it and had a tape library connected.. they won't support the TSM server at all? Have you ever got it working on a VMware ESX server? +-- |This was sent by micka...@hotmail.com via Backup Central. |Forward SPAM to ab...@backupcentral.com. +--
Re: Virtual TSM
When the various virtual machine products have something as mature as channel and device drivers that run in usermode, then the time will be right for running a backup server on them. As long as virtual machines are a panacea for can't-run-more-than-one- app-on-a-Windows-instance-sprawl and a way to sell new hardware, they won't be a good choice for a TSM environment. Where is that "Its all about I/O." tagline? [RC] On Feb 2, 2010, at 9:36 PM, Roger Deschner wrote: Remember, TSM (a.k.a. WDSF, ADSM) was originally _invented_ as a virtualized application, under the system now known as z/VM, and was supporetd there until V3.7. It should still have the fundamental design to deal with running in a virtual machine. It does need resources such as tapes to be dedicated to it, and it may take some work to get those resources connected right. But a virtual machine should actually be considered TSM's historic native environment. Roger Deschner University of Illinois at Chicago rog...@uic.edu "We all live in a virtual machine, a virtual machine, a virtual machine" --from the SHARE songbook, sung to the tune of the Beatles' "Yellow Submarine" On Wed, 3 Feb 2010, Xav Paice wrote: Quoted from the IBM link, the table refers to virtualisation where "the resources are then purely virtual (not dedicated) and/or are not discrete". My confusion, and I'd love someone to clear this up, is where we have RHEL running KVM. Red Hat clearly stated in their customer seminar on RHEV-M that if an app is supported on RHEL 5.4, it's supported under KVM on RHEL 5.4. If I add a PCI card (e.g. multi port HBA with tape attached) to a virtual machine, that is discrete and dedicated, that could be supported but it's a pretty grey area. Anyone care to confirm or deny? As Wanda put very accurately (off list), "when they say something is supported, it means if you call and report a problem, they will work on the problem" - that's the application vendor's support rather than the OS vendor's view of what's certified. Any software vendor is going to want to limit the support to things they can test in the lab - Tivoli might test TSM on RHEL, but maybe not RHEL under RHEV/KVM. That link also mentions non i386 virtualisation - such as LPARs and DSD. My apologies to the OP if this hijacks the conversation - I think it's on topic as you didn't mention which hypervisor you will select. - "Wanda Prather" wrote: From: "Wanda Prather" To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU Sent: Wednesday, 3 February, 2010 6:13:05 AM (GMT+1200) Auto- Detected Subject: Re: [ADSM-L] Virtual TSM Yes, you can restore a TSM data base to a new TSM server. However, think twice before virtualizing - Tivoli doesn't support the TSM server on a VM if you have tape drivers (i.e., physical tape or VTL). See below. http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss? rs=663&context=SSGSG7&q1=server+support +vmware&uid=swg21239546&loc=en_US&cs=utf-8&lang=en On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Micka wrote: Hi, I'm looking at virtualising our TSM server.
Re: Virtual TSM
- "Lindsay Morris" wrote: > From: "Lindsay Morris" > To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU > Sent: Thursday, 4 February, 2010 2:38:47 AM (GMT+1200) Auto-Detected > Subject: Re: [ADSM-L] Virtual TSM > > "Typical of vendors not to support their own product.." !! > > A little harsh, I think. > > TSM works in a very complex environment, and people who use (that's > us) it > try all kinds of tricks. Some corner cases doubtless get exposed, > where > support rightly refuses to help. > We ought to point out that it's only the most recent versions of ESX that can actually present a Fiberchannel attached tape to a guest in any case. I would suspect that by the time the new version has made it's way through the labs at IBM, support is inevitable - but I've not seen any announcements nor expect them soon. Note that TSM is supported under ESX, just not tape and LAN-Free which were technical limitations only recently resolved. It would be impossible for anyone to support an application using Fiberchannel attached tape on a guest where the hypervisor is incapable of delivering that. TSM is also one of those intensive I/O workloads which is the hardest to virtualise without affecting the other workloads on the host. ESX with the other companion products has a swag of benefits other than consolidation, but performance is a consideration for TSM without the additional complication of VM's.
Re: Virtual TSM
"Typical of vendors not to support their own product.." !! A little harsh, I think. TSM works in a very complex environment, and people who use (that's us) it try all kinds of tricks. Some corner cases doubtless get exposed, where support rightly refuses to help. Lindsay Morris CEO, TSMworks Tel. 1-859-539-9900 lind...@tsmworks.com On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 8:32 AM, Micka wrote: > Thanks for the info! That's typical of vendors.. any excuse to not support > their own product. Although I can't say I have ever needed to use the > support but would be handy if it came to it. > > The VM guest would be hosted on a VMware ESX Server 3i. So if I did > virtualise it and had a tape library connected.. they won't support the TSM > server at all? > > Have you ever got it working on a VMware ESX server? > > +-- > |This was sent by micka...@hotmail.com via Backup Central. > |Forward SPAM to ab...@backupcentral.com. > +-- >
Virtual TSM
Thanks for the info! That's typical of vendors.. any excuse to not support their own product. Although I can't say I have ever needed to use the support but would be handy if it came to it. The VM guest would be hosted on a VMware ESX Server 3i. So if I did virtualise it and had a tape library connected.. they won't support the TSM server at all? Have you ever got it working on a VMware ESX server? +-- |This was sent by micka...@hotmail.com via Backup Central. |Forward SPAM to ab...@backupcentral.com. +--
Re: Virtual TSM
Remember, TSM (a.k.a. WDSF, ADSM) was originally _invented_ as a virtualized application, under the system now known as z/VM, and was supporetd there until V3.7. It should still have the fundamental design to deal with running in a virtual machine. It does need resources such as tapes to be dedicated to it, and it may take some work to get those resources connected right. But a virtual machine should actually be considered TSM's historic native environment. Roger Deschner University of Illinois at Chicago rog...@uic.edu "We all live in a virtual machine, a virtual machine, a virtual machine" --from the SHARE songbook, sung to the tune of the Beatles' "Yellow Submarine" On Wed, 3 Feb 2010, Xav Paice wrote: >Quoted from the IBM link, the table refers to virtualisation where "the >resources are then purely virtual (not dedicated) and/or are not discrete". >My confusion, and I'd love someone to clear this up, is where we have RHEL >running KVM. Red Hat clearly stated in their customer seminar on RHEV-M that >if an app is supported on RHEL 5.4, it's supported under KVM on RHEL 5.4. If >I add a PCI card (e.g. multi port HBA with tape attached) to a virtual >machine, that is discrete and dedicated, that could be supported but it's a >pretty grey area. Anyone care to confirm or deny? > >As Wanda put very accurately (off list), "when they say something is >supported, it means if you call and report a problem, they will work on the >problem" - that's the application vendor's support rather than the OS vendor's >view of what's certified. Any software vendor is going to want to limit the >support to things they can test in the lab - Tivoli might test TSM on RHEL, >but maybe not RHEL under RHEV/KVM. > >That link also mentions non i386 virtualisation - such as LPARs and DSD. > >My apologies to the OP if this hijacks the conversation - I think it's on >topic as you didn't mention which hypervisor you will select. > > >- "Wanda Prather" wrote: > >> From: "Wanda Prather" >> To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU >> Sent: Wednesday, 3 February, 2010 6:13:05 AM (GMT+1200) Auto-Detected >> Subject: Re: [ADSM-L] Virtual TSM >> >> Yes, you can restore a TSM data base to a new TSM server. >> >> However, think twice before virtualizing - Tivoli doesn't support the >> TSM >> server on a VM if you have tape drivers (i.e., physical tape or VTL). >> See >> below. >> >> http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?rs=663&context=SSGSG7&q1=server+support+vmware&uid=swg21239546&loc=en_US&cs=utf-8&lang=en >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Micka >> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > >> > I'm looking at virtualising our TSM server. >
Re: Virtual TSM
Quoted from the IBM link, the table refers to virtualisation where "the resources are then purely virtual (not dedicated) and/or are not discrete". My confusion, and I'd love someone to clear this up, is where we have RHEL running KVM. Red Hat clearly stated in their customer seminar on RHEV-M that if an app is supported on RHEL 5.4, it's supported under KVM on RHEL 5.4. If I add a PCI card (e.g. multi port HBA with tape attached) to a virtual machine, that is discrete and dedicated, that could be supported but it's a pretty grey area. Anyone care to confirm or deny? As Wanda put very accurately (off list), "when they say something is supported, it means if you call and report a problem, they will work on the problem" - that's the application vendor's support rather than the OS vendor's view of what's certified. Any software vendor is going to want to limit the support to things they can test in the lab - Tivoli might test TSM on RHEL, but maybe not RHEL under RHEV/KVM. That link also mentions non i386 virtualisation - such as LPARs and DSD. My apologies to the OP if this hijacks the conversation - I think it's on topic as you didn't mention which hypervisor you will select. - "Wanda Prather" wrote: > From: "Wanda Prather" > To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, 3 February, 2010 6:13:05 AM (GMT+1200) Auto-Detected > Subject: Re: [ADSM-L] Virtual TSM > > Yes, you can restore a TSM data base to a new TSM server. > > However, think twice before virtualizing - Tivoli doesn't support the > TSM > server on a VM if you have tape drivers (i.e., physical tape or VTL). > See > below. > > http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?rs=663&context=SSGSG7&q1=server+support+vmware&uid=swg21239546&loc=en_US&cs=utf-8&lang=en > > > On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Micka > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I'm looking at virtualising our TSM server.
Re: Virtual TSM
Yes, you can restore a TSM data base to a new TSM server. However, think twice before virtualizing - Tivoli doesn't support the TSM server on a VM if you have tape drivers (i.e., physical tape or VTL). See below. http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?rs=663&context=SSGSG7&q1=server+support+vmware&uid=swg21239546&loc=en_US&cs=utf-8&lang=en On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Micka wrote: > Hi, > > I'm looking at virtualising our TSM server. The OS on the current server is > pretty messed up so I would prefer to start from scratch. > > Can I install/configure a new server then transfer the database? > > Version 5, Release 4, Level 4.0 > > Thanks, > > Michael > > +-- > |This was sent by micka...@hotmail.com via Backup Central. > |Forward SPAM to ab...@backupcentral.com. > +-- >
Virtual TSM
Hi, I'm looking at virtualising our TSM server. The OS on the current server is pretty messed up so I would prefer to start from scratch. Can I install/configure a new server then transfer the database? Version 5, Release 4, Level 4.0 Thanks, Michael +-- |This was sent by micka...@hotmail.com via Backup Central. |Forward SPAM to ab...@backupcentral.com. +--
