Vista oddness
We are testing Vista and I'm seeing something odd. TSM seems to want to do almost a full backup every time it runs automatically. I'm running the 5.5.0 client on a VMware (6.0) Vista Ultimate box that is talking to a TSM server running 5.4.1 on Windows. The backup on the Vista machine is automated using the DSMCAD service. The incremental backup kicks off at the correct time, but it ends up doing a full backup. I've looked through the dsmsched log on the Vista machine and I'm seeing where it has contacted the TSM server and picked up the schedule name and the action. The schedule name is correct and the action is set to incremental. And several lines in the dsmsched log mention "Incremental backup of '\\is-vista-test-d\c$' finished". The log shows everything just like what I would expect to say, the issue is that it ends up backing up almost 8 gigs of files each time the backup runs. I've run scheduled incremental backups almost back to back on the machine and it picks up 8 gigs each time. The machine is just sitting there between backups; I'm not doing anything on the machine in between. If I open the GUI and tag the c drive for incremental backup it goes out and looks at all the files on the drive and backs up a few dozen files and it done. Just like I would expect it to. If I go to the baclient folder and run "dsmc incr" from the command line it ends up doing what looks like a full backup. In the last couple of hours I had a scheduled backup run that moved about 8 gigs worth of files. Right after that finished I did a c drive backup from the GUI. It moved a few hundred megs of files. Right behind that I did the "dsmc incr". So far it's moved over 4 gig of files and is still running. Anybody got a idea what's going on here? PS, Vista looks good. Except most of our software doesn't run. The UAC (User Account Control) is a real piece of work. And they have moved everything around so you can't find what you're looking for. But at least it looks good David Tyree Interface Analyst South Georgia Medical Center 229.333.1155 Confidential Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.
Re: Vista oddness
On Thursday 06 December 2007, Tyree, David wrote: > Anybody got a idea what's going on here? Maybe the System Objects (I don't know how it is called in vista) is using all that space. This is each time a full backup of all dll's and all other windows stuff. Try to backup the System Objects from the gui to see how much data is send. I think you will be surprised. Stef
Re: Vista oddness
Don't know myself, but someone else posted a while back that the System State on Vista is many GB. That is consistent with what you are seeing - a scheduled backup will do the System State, whether things have changed or not. And selecting the C: drive will not do the system state. As a test, try your backup from thh GUI again, but this time select System STate as well as the C: drive, see if the results change... And please post back the results! On 12/6/07, Tyree, David <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >We are testing Vista and I'm seeing something odd. TSM seems > to want to do almost a full backup every time it runs automatically. > >I'm running the 5.5.0 client on a VMware (6.0) Vista > Ultimate box that is talking to a TSM server running 5.4.1 on Windows. > >The backup on the Vista machine is automated using the > DSMCAD service. The incremental backup kicks off at the correct time, > but it ends up doing a full backup. > >I've looked through the dsmsched log on the Vista machine > and I'm seeing where it has contacted the TSM server and picked up the > schedule name and the action. The schedule name is correct and the > action is set to incremental. And several lines in the dsmsched log > mention "Incremental backup of '\\is-vista-test-d\c$' finished". > >The log shows everything just like what I would expect to > say, the issue is that it ends up backing up almost 8 gigs of files each > time the backup runs. I've run scheduled incremental backups almost back > to back on the machine and it picks up 8 gigs each time. The machine is > just sitting there between backups; I'm not doing anything on the > machine in between. > >If I open the GUI and tag the c drive for incremental backup > it goes out and looks at all the files on the drive and backs up a few > dozen files and it done. Just like I would expect it to. > >If I go to the baclient folder and run "dsmc incr" from the > command line it ends up doing what looks like a full backup. > > > >In the last couple of hours I had a scheduled backup run > that moved about 8 gigs worth of files. Right after that finished I did > a c drive backup from the GUI. It moved a few hundred megs of files. > Right behind that I did the "dsmc incr". So far it's moved over 4 gig of > files and is still running. > > > >Anybody got a idea what's going on here? > > > > > >PS, Vista looks good. Except most of our software doesn't > run. The UAC (User Account Control) is a real piece of work. And they > have moved everything around so you can't find what you're looking for. > But at least it looks good > > David Tyree > Interface Analyst > South Georgia Medical Center > 229.333.1155 > > Confidential Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is > for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain > confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, > disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all > copies of the original message. > > >
Re: Vista oddness
Ok, I'll give that a try. -Original Message- From: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wanda Prather Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 2:35 AM To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: [ADSM-L] Vista oddness Don't know myself, but someone else posted a while back that the System State on Vista is many GB. That is consistent with what you are seeing - a scheduled backup will do the System State, whether things have changed or not. And selecting the C: drive will not do the system state. As a test, try your backup from thh GUI again, but this time select System STate as well as the C: drive, see if the results change... And please post back the results! On 12/6/07, Tyree, David <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >We are testing Vista and I'm seeing something odd. TSM seems > to want to do almost a full backup every time it runs automatically. > >I'm running the 5.5.0 client on a VMware (6.0) Vista > Ultimate box that is talking to a TSM server running 5.4.1 on Windows. > >The backup on the Vista machine is automated using the > DSMCAD service. The incremental backup kicks off at the correct time, > but it ends up doing a full backup. > >I've looked through the dsmsched log on the Vista machine > and I'm seeing where it has contacted the TSM server and picked up the > schedule name and the action. The schedule name is correct and the > action is set to incremental. And several lines in the dsmsched log > mention "Incremental backup of '\\is-vista-test-d\c$' finished". > >The log shows everything just like what I would expect to > say, the issue is that it ends up backing up almost 8 gigs of files each > time the backup runs. I've run scheduled incremental backups almost back > to back on the machine and it picks up 8 gigs each time. The machine is > just sitting there between backups; I'm not doing anything on the > machine in between. > >If I open the GUI and tag the c drive for incremental backup > it goes out and looks at all the files on the drive and backs up a few > dozen files and it done. Just like I would expect it to. > >If I go to the baclient folder and run "dsmc incr" from the > command line it ends up doing what looks like a full backup. > > > >In the last couple of hours I had a scheduled backup run > that moved about 8 gigs worth of files. Right after that finished I did > a c drive backup from the GUI. It moved a few hundred megs of files. > Right behind that I did the "dsmc incr". So far it's moved over 4 gig of > files and is still running. > > > >Anybody got a idea what's going on here? > > > > > >PS, Vista looks good. Except most of our software doesn't > run. The UAC (User Account Control) is a real piece of work. And they > have moved everything around so you can't find what you're looking for. > But at least it looks good > > David Tyree > Interface Analyst > South Georgia Medical Center > 229.333.1155 > > Confidential Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is > for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain > confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, > disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all > copies of the original message. > > >
Re: Vista oddness
I did a backup using the GUI and selected system state along with the C: drive. The backup was 8 gig when it finished. I went back and did a C: drive only and it was only a few hundred meg. Then I did a system state only and got the 8 gig again. That system state in Vista is just crazy. I need to go back and really look at some of my servers and see just how big the system state backups are. I'll also take a close look at a few Win XP Pro desktops that I'm backing up and see what the numbers look like. -Original Message- From: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wanda Prather Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 2:35 AM To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: [ADSM-L] Vista oddness Don't know myself, but someone else posted a while back that the System State on Vista is many GB. That is consistent with what you are seeing - a scheduled backup will do the System State, whether things have changed or not. And selecting the C: drive will not do the system state. As a test, try your backup from thh GUI again, but this time select System STate as well as the C: drive, see if the results change... And please post back the results! On 12/6/07, Tyree, David <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >We are testing Vista and I'm seeing something odd. TSM seems > to want to do almost a full backup every time it runs automatically. > >I'm running the 5.5.0 client on a VMware (6.0) Vista > Ultimate box that is talking to a TSM server running 5.4.1 on Windows. > >The backup on the Vista machine is automated using the > DSMCAD service. The incremental backup kicks off at the correct time, > but it ends up doing a full backup. > >I've looked through the dsmsched log on the Vista machine > and I'm seeing where it has contacted the TSM server and picked up the > schedule name and the action. The schedule name is correct and the > action is set to incremental. And several lines in the dsmsched log > mention "Incremental backup of '\\is-vista-test-d\c$' finished". > >The log shows everything just like what I would expect to > say, the issue is that it ends up backing up almost 8 gigs of files each > time the backup runs. I've run scheduled incremental backups almost back > to back on the machine and it picks up 8 gigs each time. The machine is > just sitting there between backups; I'm not doing anything on the > machine in between. > >If I open the GUI and tag the c drive for incremental backup > it goes out and looks at all the files on the drive and backs up a few > dozen files and it done. Just like I would expect it to. > >If I go to the baclient folder and run "dsmc incr" from the > command line it ends up doing what looks like a full backup. > > > >In the last couple of hours I had a scheduled backup run > that moved about 8 gigs worth of files. Right after that finished I did > a c drive backup from the GUI. It moved a few hundred megs of files. > Right behind that I did the "dsmc incr". So far it's moved over 4 gig of > files and is still running. > > > >Anybody got a idea what's going on here? > > > > > >PS, Vista looks good. Except most of our software doesn't > run. The UAC (User Account Control) is a real piece of work. And they > have moved everything around so you can't find what you're looking for. > But at least it looks good > > David Tyree > Interface Analyst > South Georgia Medical Center > 229.333.1155 > > Confidential Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is > for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain > confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, > disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all > copies of the original message. > > >
Re: Vista oddness
The XP system state is about 300MB, much like a Win2K system. It's Vista where the weirdness kicks in... On 12/7/07, Tyree, David <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I did a backup using the GUI and selected system state along with the C: > drive. The backup was 8 gig when it finished. > > I went back and did a C: drive only and it was only a few hundred meg. > Then I did a system state only and got the 8 gig again. > > That system state in Vista is just crazy. I need to go back and really > look at some of my servers and see just how big the system state backups > are. I'll also take a close look at a few Win XP Pro desktops that I'm > backing up and see what the numbers look like. > > > -Original Message- > From: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > Wanda Prather > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 2:35 AM > To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU > Subject: Re: [ADSM-L] Vista oddness > > Don't know myself, but someone else posted a while back that the System > State on Vista is many GB. > > That is consistent with what you are seeing - a scheduled backup will do > the > System State, whether things have changed or not. And selecting the C: > drive will not do the system state. > > As a test, try your backup from thh GUI again, but this time select > System > STate as well as the C: drive, see if the results change... > > And please post back the results! > > > > On 12/6/07, Tyree, David <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >We are testing Vista and I'm seeing something odd. TSM > seems > > to want to do almost a full backup every time it runs automatically. > > > >I'm running the 5.5.0 client on a VMware (6.0) Vista > > Ultimate box that is talking to a TSM server running 5.4.1 on Windows. > > > >The backup on the Vista machine is automated using the > > DSMCAD service. The incremental backup kicks off at the correct time, > > but it ends up doing a full backup. > > > >I've looked through the dsmsched log on the Vista machine > > and I'm seeing where it has contacted the TSM server and picked up the > > schedule name and the action. The schedule name is correct and the > > action is set to incremental. And several lines in the dsmsched log > > mention "Incremental backup of '\\is-vista-test-d\c$' finished". > > > >The log shows everything just like what I would expect to > > say, the issue is that it ends up backing up almost 8 gigs of files > each > > time the backup runs. I've run scheduled incremental backups almost > back > > to back on the machine and it picks up 8 gigs each time. The machine > is > > just sitting there between backups; I'm not doing anything on the > > machine in between. > > > >If I open the GUI and tag the c drive for incremental > backup > > it goes out and looks at all the files on the drive and backs up a few > > dozen files and it done. Just like I would expect it to. > > > >If I go to the baclient folder and run "dsmc incr" from the > > command line it ends up doing what looks like a full backup. > > > > > > > >In the last couple of hours I had a scheduled backup run > > that moved about 8 gigs worth of files. Right after that finished I > did > > a c drive backup from the GUI. It moved a few hundred megs of files. > > Right behind that I did the "dsmc incr". So far it's moved over 4 gig > of > > files and is still running. > > > > > > > >Anybody got a idea what's going on here? > > > > > > > > > > > >PS, Vista looks good. Except most of our software doesn't > > run. The UAC (User Account Control) is a real piece of work. And they > > have moved everything around so you can't find what you're looking > for. > > But at least it looks good > > > > David Tyree > > Interface Analyst > > South Georgia Medical Center > > 229.333.1155 > > > > Confidential Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, > is > > for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain > > confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, > use, > > disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended > > recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all > > copies of the original message. > > > > > > >
Re: Vista oddness
Hi, Well, no wonder why Microsoft already are deduplicating their Systemstate backups with System Recovery Tool, SRT, an add on to DPM2007. I wont argue how well they do this but at least they try. //Henrik -Original Message- From: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tyree, David Sent: den 7 december 2007 15:47 To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: [ADSM-L] Vista oddness I did a backup using the GUI and selected system state along with the C: drive. The backup was 8 gig when it finished. I went back and did a C: drive only and it was only a few hundred meg. Then I did a system state only and got the 8 gig again. That system state in Vista is just crazy. I need to go back and really look at some of my servers and see just how big the system state backups are. I'll also take a close look at a few Win XP Pro desktops that I'm backing up and see what the numbers look like. -Original Message- From: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wanda Prather Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 2:35 AM To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: Re: [ADSM-L] Vista oddness Don't know myself, but someone else posted a while back that the System State on Vista is many GB. That is consistent with what you are seeing - a scheduled backup will do the System State, whether things have changed or not. And selecting the C: drive will not do the system state. As a test, try your backup from thh GUI again, but this time select System STate as well as the C: drive, see if the results change... And please post back the results! On 12/6/07, Tyree, David <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >We are testing Vista and I'm seeing something odd. TSM seems > to want to do almost a full backup every time it runs automatically. > >I'm running the 5.5.0 client on a VMware (6.0) Vista > Ultimate box that is talking to a TSM server running 5.4.1 on Windows. > >The backup on the Vista machine is automated using the > DSMCAD service. The incremental backup kicks off at the correct time, > but it ends up doing a full backup. > >I've looked through the dsmsched log on the Vista machine > and I'm seeing where it has contacted the TSM server and picked up the > schedule name and the action. The schedule name is correct and the > action is set to incremental. And several lines in the dsmsched log > mention "Incremental backup of '\\is-vista-test-d\c$' finished". > >The log shows everything just like what I would expect to > say, the issue is that it ends up backing up almost 8 gigs of files each > time the backup runs. I've run scheduled incremental backups almost back > to back on the machine and it picks up 8 gigs each time. The machine is > just sitting there between backups; I'm not doing anything on the > machine in between. > >If I open the GUI and tag the c drive for incremental backup > it goes out and looks at all the files on the drive and backs up a few > dozen files and it done. Just like I would expect it to. > >If I go to the baclient folder and run "dsmc incr" from the > command line it ends up doing what looks like a full backup. > > > >In the last couple of hours I had a scheduled backup run > that moved about 8 gigs worth of files. Right after that finished I did > a c drive backup from the GUI. It moved a few hundred megs of files. > Right behind that I did the "dsmc incr". So far it's moved over 4 gig of > files and is still running. > > > >Anybody got a idea what's going on here? > > > > > >PS, Vista looks good. Except most of our software doesn't > run. The UAC (User Account Control) is a real piece of work. And they > have moved everything around so you can't find what you're looking for. > But at least it looks good > > David Tyree > Interface Analyst > South Georgia Medical Center > 229.333.1155 > > Confidential Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is > for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain > confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, > disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended > recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all > copies of the original message. > > > --- The information contained in this message may be CONFIDENTIAL and is intended for the addressee only. Any unauthorised use, dissemination of the information or copying of this message is prohibited. If you are not the addressee, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete this message. Thank you.
Re: Vista oddness
>> On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 16:01:45 +0100, Henrik Wahlstedt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Well, no wonder why Microsoft already are deduplicating their > Systemstate backups with System Recovery Tool, SRT, an add on to > DPM2007. > I wont argue how well they do this but at least they try. Mmm. Do stupid wasteful things in the published APIs, and unroll them in a proprietary tool. I'll bet a nickel the DPM folks have access to the internal docs. It makes me think of the policy MS had on office apps: the windows APIs they published were known to be hobbled, and the MS applications crew (Office, etc) got access to the undocumented APIs which actually functioned with reasonable efficiency. I wonder what percentage of MS personell are actively engaged in creating chaff and obstacles for the software ecosystem around the OS. Someone is a wizard at PR, to convince all those folks they're not doing negative work. If they weren't, the suicide rate in Redmond would be far worse. - Allen S. Rout
Re: Vista oddness
Joanne,
Thanks very much for the detailed response. We really need relief on
this. We have a couple of thousand Windows systems, and they will
eventually be upgrading to Vista. As they do so, they will uncover
this huge problem; A problem for them, in that their backups will
run longer and they will be storing much more data than they need;
and also a problem for the TSM server administrators as they put an
increasingly huge load on the network and TSM server infrastructure.
This solution, as it is now, is virtually unworkable for us. The
clock is ticking, and we need relieve ASAP. Waiting for the next
major release is too long, IMHO. It would have been nice if this
were addressed with the initial support for Vista in TSM, but that's
water over the dam now.
Thanks for listening.
..Paul
At 11:40 AM 12/7/2007, Joanne T Nguyen wrote:
David,
You are seeing the correct behavior. If you have the default domain
backup, system state will be part of the backup. On Vista, system state
is in GB because we're backing up the windows\winsxs and
system32\driverstore folder. Please see the link below where MS describes
in-box writers. System state consists of all the bootable system state and
system services writers. Though 8GB seems high. Our testing
shows about 5GB.
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa819131.aspx
For Windows 2003, TSM implements a way to back up the system files
component of the system state only if something is changed. So it
is possible to backup only about 30-40 files the 2nd time and thereafter if
no fixes or SP were applied after the initial system state backup.
During Vista development, we noticed some files were always changed so
instead of spending the cycle to compare each file. which are
in 30,000-40,000 files now, we decided to backup all the time. This is one
area we will revisit.
If you have vshadow tool from the MS VSS SDK, you can do "vshadow -wm2" to
see all the files that should be part of the backup. Please
let me know if you have further questions.
Regards,
Joanne Nguyen
TSM Client Development
"Tyree, David"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
.ORG> To
Sent by: "ADSM: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU
Dist Stor cc
Manager"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject
.EDU> Re: Vista oddness
12/07/2007 06:47
AM
Please respond to
"ADSM: Dist Stor
Manager"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
.EDU>
I did a backup using the GUI and selected system state along with the C:
drive. The backup was 8 gig when it finished.
I went back and did a C: drive only and it was only a few hundred meg.
Then I did a system state only and got the 8 gig again.
That system state in Vista is just crazy. I need to go back and really
look at some of my servers and see just how big the system state backups
are. I'll also take a close look at a few Win XP Pro desktops that I'm
backing up and see what the numbers look like.
-Original Message-
From: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Wanda Prather
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 2:35 AM
To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: Re: [ADSM-L] Vista oddness
Don't know myself, but someone else posted a while back that the System
State on Vista is many GB.
That is consistent with what you are seeing - a scheduled backup will do
the
System State, whether things have changed or not. And selecting the C:
drive will not do the system state.
As a test, try your backup from thh GUI again, but this time select
System
STate as well as the C: drive, see if the results change...
And please post back the results!
On 12/6/07, Tyree, David <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>We are testing Vista and I'm seeing something odd. TSM
seems
> to want to do almost a full backup every time it runs automatically.
>
>I'm running the 5.5.0 client on a VMware (6.0) Vista
> Ultimate box that is talking to a TSM server running 5.4.1 on Windows.
>
>The backup on the Vista machine is automated using the
> DSMCAD service. The incremental backup kicks off at the correct time,
> but it ends up doing a full backup.
>
>I've looked through the dsmsched log on the Vista machine
> and I'm seeing where it has contacted the TSM server and picked up the
> schedule name and the action. The schedule name is correct and the
> action is set to incremental. And several lines in the dsmsched log
> mention "Incremental backup of '\\is-vista-test-d\c$' finished".
>
>The log shows everything just
Re: Vista oddness
David,
You are seeing the correct behavior. If you have the default domain
backup, system state will be part of the backup. On Vista, system state
is in GB because we're backing up the windows\winsxs and
system32\driverstore folder. Please see the link below where MS describes
in-box writers. System state consists of all the bootable system state and
system services writers. Though 8GB seems high. Our testing
shows about 5GB.
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa819131.aspx
For Windows 2003, TSM implements a way to back up the system files
component of the system state only if something is changed. So it
is possible to backup only about 30-40 files the 2nd time and thereafter if
no fixes or SP were applied after the initial system state backup.
During Vista development, we noticed some files were always changed so
instead of spending the cycle to compare each file. which are
in 30,000-40,000 files now, we decided to backup all the time. This is one
area we will revisit.
If you have vshadow tool from the MS VSS SDK, you can do "vshadow -wm2" to
see all the files that should be part of the backup. Please
let me know if you have further questions.
Regards,
Joanne Nguyen
TSM Client Development
"Tyree, David"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
.ORG> To
Sent by: "ADSM: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU
Dist Stor cc
Manager"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject
.EDU> Re: Vista oddness
12/07/2007 06:47
AM
Please respond to
"ADSM: Dist Stor
Manager"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
.EDU>
I did a backup using the GUI and selected system state along with the C:
drive. The backup was 8 gig when it finished.
I went back and did a C: drive only and it was only a few hundred meg.
Then I did a system state only and got the 8 gig again.
That system state in Vista is just crazy. I need to go back and really
look at some of my servers and see just how big the system state backups
are. I'll also take a close look at a few Win XP Pro desktops that I'm
backing up and see what the numbers look like.
-Original Message-
From: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Wanda Prather
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 2:35 AM
To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: Re: [ADSM-L] Vista oddness
Don't know myself, but someone else posted a while back that the System
State on Vista is many GB.
That is consistent with what you are seeing - a scheduled backup will do
the
System State, whether things have changed or not. And selecting the C:
drive will not do the system state.
As a test, try your backup from thh GUI again, but this time select
System
STate as well as the C: drive, see if the results change...
And please post back the results!
On 12/6/07, Tyree, David <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>We are testing Vista and I'm seeing something odd. TSM
seems
> to want to do almost a full backup every time it runs automatically.
>
>I'm running the 5.5.0 client on a VMware (6.0) Vista
> Ultimate box that is talking to a TSM server running 5.4.1 on Windows.
>
>The backup on the Vista machine is automated using the
> DSMCAD service. The incremental backup kicks off at the correct time,
> but it ends up doing a full backup.
>
>I've looked through the dsmsched log on the Vista machine
> and I'm seeing where it has contacted the TSM server and picked up the
> schedule name and the action. The schedule name is correct and the
> action is set to incremental. And several lines in the dsmsched log
> mention "Increme
Re: Vista oddness
Well Paul it looks like you need a low tech solution I assume Vista has some sort of NTBACKUP equivalent? Run your NTBACKUP of the systemstate as a precommand and put it through the GNU split utility to give you files of say 1GB in size. do it as a script and add a sleep at the end to give VSS time to quiesce before the TSM backup starts. Exclude systemstate from the TSM backup (or maybe put it in a class with freq of 14) , but turn on subfile backup for the split backup files. Voila - poor man's dedup. Regards Steve Steven Harris TSM Admin - Sydney Australia Paul Zarnowski <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To Sent by: "ADSM: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU Dist Stor cc Manager" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject .EDU> Re: [ADSM-L] Vista oddness 08/12/2007 10:32 AM Please respond to "ADSM: Dist Stor Manager" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .EDU> Joanne, Thanks very much for the detailed response. We really need relief on this. We have a couple of thousand Windows systems, and they will eventually be upgrading to Vista. As they do so, they will uncover this huge problem; A problem for them, in that their backups will run longer and they will be storing much more data than they need; and also a problem for the TSM server administrators as they put an increasingly huge load on the network and TSM server infrastructure. This solution, as it is now, is virtually unworkable for us. The clock is ticking, and we need relieve ASAP. Waiting for the next major release is too long, IMHO. It would have been nice if this were addressed with the initial support for Vista in TSM, but that's water over the dam now. Thanks for listening. ..Paul At 11:40 AM 12/7/2007, Joanne T Nguyen wrote: >David, > >You are seeing the correct behavior. If you have the default domain >backup, system state will be part of the backup. On Vista, system state >is in GB because we're backing up the windows\winsxs and >system32\driverstore folder. Please see the link below where MS describes >in-box writers. System state consists of all the bootable system state and >system services writers. Though 8GB seems high. Our testing >shows about 5GB. > >http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa819131.aspx > >For Windows 2003, TSM implements a way to back up the system files >component of the system state only if something is changed. So it >is possible to backup only about 30-40 files the 2nd time and thereafter if >no fixes or SP were applied after the initial system state backup. >During Vista development, we noticed some files were always changed so >instead of spending the cycle to compare each file. which are >in 30,000-40,000 files now, we decided to backup all the time. This is one >area we will revisit. > >If you have vshadow tool from the MS VSS SDK, you can do "vshadow -wm2" to >see all the files that should be part of the backup. Please >let me know if you have further questions. > >Regards, >Joanne Nguyen >TSM Client Development > > > > > > "Tyree, David" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > .ORG> To > Sent by: "ADSM: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU > Dist Stor cc > Manager" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject > .EDU> Re: Vista oddness > > > 12/07/2007 06:47 > AM > > > Please respond to > "ADSM: Dist Stor > Manager" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >.EDU> > > > > > > >I did a backup using the GUI and selected system state along with the C: >drive. The backup was 8 gig when it finished. > >I went back and did a C: drive only and it was only a few hundred meg. >Then I did a system state only and got the 8 gig again. > >That system state in Vista is just crazy. I need to go back and really >look at some of my servers and see just how big the system state backups >are. I'll also take a close look at a few Win XP Pro desktops that I'm >backing up and see what the numbers look like. > > >-Original Message- >From: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of >Wanda Prather >Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 2:35 AM >To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU >Subject: Re: [ADSM-L] Vista oddness > >Don't know myself, but someone
Re: Vista oddness
Might work... if only I had time to work on such a thing and test it out... Wouldn't the 1GB files be backed up everytime, since the timestamp will have changed? At 07:40 PM 12/9/2007, you wrote: Well Paul it looks like you need a low tech solution I assume Vista has some sort of NTBACKUP equivalent? Run your NTBACKUP of the systemstate as a precommand and put it through the GNU split utility to give you files of say 1GB in size. do it as a script and add a sleep at the end to give VSS time to quiesce before the TSM backup starts. Exclude systemstate from the TSM backup (or maybe put it in a class with freq of 14) , but turn on subfile backup for the split backup files. Voila - poor man's dedup. Regards Steve Steven Harris TSM Admin - Sydney Australia Paul Zarnowski <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To Sent by: "ADSM: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU Dist Stor cc Manager" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject .EDU> Re: [ADSM-L] Vista oddness 08/12/2007 10:32 AM Please respond to "ADSM: Dist Stor Manager" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .EDU> Joanne, Thanks very much for the detailed response. We really need relief on this. We have a couple of thousand Windows systems, and they will eventually be upgrading to Vista. As they do so, they will uncover this huge problem; A problem for them, in that their backups will run longer and they will be storing much more data than they need; and also a problem for the TSM server administrators as they put an increasingly huge load on the network and TSM server infrastructure. This solution, as it is now, is virtually unworkable for us. The clock is ticking, and we need relieve ASAP. Waiting for the next major release is too long, IMHO. It would have been nice if this were addressed with the initial support for Vista in TSM, but that's water over the dam now. Thanks for listening. ..Paul At 11:40 AM 12/7/2007, Joanne T Nguyen wrote: >David, > >You are seeing the correct behavior. If you have the default domain >backup, system state will be part of the backup. On Vista, system state >is in GB because we're backing up the windows\winsxs and >system32\driverstore folder. Please see the link below where MS describes >in-box writers. System state consists of all the bootable system state and >system services writers. Though 8GB seems high. Our testing >shows about 5GB. > >http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa819131.aspx > >For Windows 2003, TSM implements a way to back up the system files >component of the system state only if something is changed. So it >is possible to backup only about 30-40 files the 2nd time and thereafter if >no fixes or SP were applied after the initial system state backup. >During Vista development, we noticed some files were always changed so >instead of spending the cycle to compare each file. which are >in 30,000-40,000 files now, we decided to backup all the time. This is one >area we will revisit. > >If you have vshadow tool from the MS VSS SDK, you can do "vshadow -wm2" to >see all the files that should be part of the backup. Please >let me know if you have further questions. > >Regards, >Joanne Nguyen >TSM Client Development > > > > > > "Tyree, David" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > .ORG> To > Sent by: "ADSM: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU > Dist Stor cc > Manager" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject > .EDU> Re: Vista oddness > > > 12/07/2007 06:47 > AM > > > Please respond to > "ADSM: Dist Stor > Manager" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >.EDU> > > > > > > >I did a backup using the GUI and selected system state along with the C: >drive. The backup was 8 gig when it finished. > >I went back and did a C: drive only and it was only a few hundred meg. >Then I did a system state only and got the 8 gig again. > >That system state in Vista is just crazy. I need to go back and really >look at some of my servers and see just how big the system state backups >are. I'll also take a close look at a few Win XP Pro desktops that I'm >backing up and see what the numbers look like. > > >-Original Message- >From: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [mailto
Re: Vista oddness
yes, they will be backed up every time, but only the blocks that have changed, thats why I specified subfile. "ADSM: Dist Stor Manager" wrote on 10/12/2007 03:03:53 PM: > Might work... if only I had time to work on such a thing and test it > out... Wouldn't the 1GB files be backed up everytime, since the > timestamp will have changed? > > At 07:40 PM 12/9/2007, you wrote: > >Well Paul it looks like you need a low tech solution > > > >I assume Vista has some sort of NTBACKUP equivalent? > > > >Run your NTBACKUP of the systemstate as a precommand and put it through the > >GNU split utility to give you files of say 1GB in size. do it as a script > >and add a sleep at the end to give VSS time to quiesce before the TSM > >backup starts. > > > >Exclude systemstate from the TSM backup (or maybe put it in a class with > >freq of 14) , but turn on subfile backup for the split backup files. > > > >Voila - poor man's dedup. > > > >Regards > > > >Steve > > > >Steven Harris > >TSM Admin - Sydney Australia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul Zarnowski > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > To > > Sent by: "ADSM: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU > > Dist Stor cc > > Manager" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject > > .EDU> Re: [ADSM-L] Vista oddness > > > > > > 08/12/2007 10:32 > > AM > > > > > > Please respond to > > "ADSM: Dist Stor > > Manager" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >.EDU> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Joanne, > > > >Thanks very much for the detailed response. We really need relief on > >this. We have a couple of thousand Windows systems, and they will > >eventually be upgrading to Vista. As they do so, they will uncover > >this huge problem; A problem for them, in that their backups will > >run longer and they will be storing much more data than they need; > >and also a problem for the TSM server administrators as they put an > >increasingly huge load on the network and TSM server infrastructure. > > > >This solution, as it is now, is virtually unworkable for us. The > >clock is ticking, and we need relieve ASAP. Waiting for the next > >major release is too long, IMHO. It would have been nice if this > >were addressed with the initial support for Vista in TSM, but that's > >water over the dam now. > > > >Thanks for listening. > > > >..Paul > > > >At 11:40 AM 12/7/2007, Joanne T Nguyen wrote: > > >David, > > > > > >You are seeing the correct behavior. If you have the default domain > > >backup, system state will be part of the backup. On Vista, system state > > >is in GB because we're backing up the windows\winsxs and > > >system32\driverstore folder. Please see the link below where MS describes > > >in-box writers. System state consists of all the bootable system state > >and > > >system services writers. Though 8GB seems high. Our testing > > >shows about 5GB. > > > > > >http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa819131.aspx > > > > > >For Windows 2003, TSM implements a way to back up the system files > > >component of the system state only if something is changed. So it > > >is possible to backup only about 30-40 files the 2nd time and thereafter > >if > > >no fixes or SP were applied after the initial system state backup. > > >During Vista development, we noticed some files were always changed so > > >instead of spending the cycle to compare each file. which are > > >in 30,000-40,000 files now, we decided to backup all the time. This is > >one > > >area we will revisit. > > > > > >If you have vshadow tool from the MS VSS SDK, you can do "vshadow -wm2" to > > >see all the files that should be part of the backup. Please > > >let me know if you have further questions. > > > > > >Regards, > > >Joanne Nguyen > > >TSM Client Development > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Tyree, David" > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > .ORG> > >To > > > Sent by: "ADSM:
Re: Vista oddness
That'll work...as long as the SYSTEMSTATE backup is less than 2GB, and as long as Vista supports subfile backups. Let us all know how that works. -- Mark Stapleton Berbee (a CDW company) System engineer 7145 Boone Avenue North, Suite 140 Brooklyn Park MN 55428-1511 763-592-5963 www.berbee.com > -Original Message- > From: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > Steven Harris > Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 11:35 PM > To: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU > Subject: Re: [ADSM-L] Vista oddness > > yes, they will be backed up every time, but only the blocks that have > changed, thats why I specified subfile. > > "ADSM: Dist Stor Manager" wrote on 10/12/2007 > 03:03:53 PM: > > > Might work... if only I had time to work on such a thing and test it > > out... Wouldn't the 1GB files be backed up everytime, since the > > timestamp will have changed? > > > > At 07:40 PM 12/9/2007, you wrote: > > >Well Paul it looks like you need a low tech solution > > > > > >I assume Vista has some sort of NTBACKUP equivalent? > > > > > >Run your NTBACKUP of the systemstate as a precommand and put it through > the > > >GNU split utility to give you files of say 1GB in size. do it as a > script > > >and add a sleep at the end to give VSS time to quiesce before the TSM > > >backup starts. > > > > > >Exclude systemstate from the TSM backup (or maybe put it in a class > with > > >freq of 14) , but turn on subfile backup for the split backup files. > > > > > >Voila - poor man's dedup. > > > > > >Regards > > > > > >Steve > > > > > >Steven Harris > > >TSM Admin - Sydney Australia > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul Zarnowski > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > To > > > Sent by: "ADSM: ADSM-L@VM.MARIST.EDU > > > Dist Stor > cc > > > Manager" > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject > > > .EDU> Re: [ADSM-L] Vista oddness > > > > > > > > > 08/12/2007 10:32 > > > AM > > > > > > > > > Please respond to > > > "ADSM: Dist Stor > > > Manager" > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >.EDU> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Joanne, > > > > > >Thanks very much for the detailed response. We really need relief on > > >this. We have a couple of thousand Windows systems, and they will > > >eventually be upgrading to Vista. As they do so, they will uncover > > >this huge problem; A problem for them, in that their backups will > > >run longer and they will be storing much more data than they need; > > >and also a problem for the TSM server administrators as they put an > > >increasingly huge load on the network and TSM server infrastructure. > > > > > >This solution, as it is now, is virtually unworkable for us. The > > >clock is ticking, and we need relieve ASAP. Waiting for the next > > >major release is too long, IMHO. It would have been nice if this > > >were addressed with the initial support for Vista in TSM, but that's > > >water over the dam now. > > > > > >Thanks for listening. > > > > > >..Paul > > > > > >At 11:40 AM 12/7/2007, Joanne T Nguyen wrote: > > > >David, > > > > > > > >You are seeing the correct behavior. If you have the default domain > > > >backup, system state will be part of the backup. On Vista, system > state > > > >is in GB because we're backing up the windows\winsxs and > > > >system32\driverstore folder. Please see the link below where MS > describes > > > >in-box writers. System state consists of all the bootable system > state > > >and > > > >system services writers. Though 8GB seems high. Our testing > > > >shows about 5GB. > > > > > > > >http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa819131.aspx > > > > > > > >For Windows 2003, TSM implements a way to back up the system files > > > >component of the system state only if something is changed. So it > >
