Re: [AFMUG] OT... potato soap and enchiladas

[Ken Hohhof]

Spanish is a strange language.  Sopa is edible, pie is not.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 10:00 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT... potato soap and enchiladas

 

did you cuss? is that why the soap?

 

but really, its fall, the only thing good about fall is potato soup

 

On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 9:23 PM Jaime Solorza mailto:losguyswirel...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Yum yum yum

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Re: [AFMUG] OT... potato soap and enchiladas

[Steve Jones]

did you cuss? is that why the soap?

but really, its fall, the only thing good about fall is potato soup

On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 9:23 PM Jaime Solorza 
wrote:

> Yum yum yum
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Re: [AFMUG] my adulterated nprm

[Ken Hohhof]

I assume he means Non Penetrating Roof Mount.

Most acronyms mean multiple things.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 7:56 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] my adulterated nprm

 

NPRM notice of proposed rule making 

Sent from my iPhone





On Oct 20, 2020, at 6:08 PM, Steve Jones mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> > wrote:



Pretty solid in the shop with the angle supports, but if  it feels loose up top 
we will do that too, probably will anyway to hang pipe 

 

On Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 6:14 PM Jaime Solorza mailto:losguyswirel...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I would build a cross support system from tower section to tower section...make 
it sturdier

 

On Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 2:18 PM Steve Jones mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> > wrote:



 

so it exists now

 

On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 8:41 PM Steve Jones  wrote:

Yeah, its 40lbs per square foot and landlord said it's no issue. It's a 
concrete silo

 

On Sat, Oct 3, 2020, 6:27 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com> > wrote:

I assume you’ve determined the roof can support 3100 lbs in something like 100 
sq ft.  Sounds like a lot, but I guess it’s no worse than 15 big guys standing 
together.

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of ch...@wbmfg.com  
Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2020 5:49 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] my adulterated nprm

 

pipe hangers and unistrut

 

From: Steve Jones 

Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2020 4:30 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] my adulterated nprm

 

i still need to figure out a clean attachment for the struts, there will be a 
gap between the tower sections and the angle iron, it comes at 45 degrees as 
well, so I dont think heavy u bolts will sit right without crimping. The 
sections are on the rohn footplates welded to the base. 

 



 

On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 5:02 PM Steve Jones mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> > wrote:

that nprm6 was pushing its luck, they had only put 480lbs of the ballast (I had 
calculated at something like 850), it didnt move, the grain leg got knocked 
over, the other providers 3 foot pipe tuned and bent. I was surprised about the 
lock, i think since the antenna was only centerline height of 5.5 feet and I 
cut the remaining pipe off I slipped in just under, and the wind may have not 
straightligned across the top of the bin. It should have been on the ground 
with the grain leg. 

 

 

 

On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 4:34 PM mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com> > 
wrote:

At 100 mph you will see about 35 PSF with your antenna roughly 250 lbs of force 
if facing the wind.  

Looks like you will have an 8’ vertical lever and a roughly 4 foot or less 
horizontal lever, so a 2:1 advantage.

 

That will will lift 500 lbs of ballast on the base due to the dish.  More 
depending on all the other junk.  

You are probably going to be OK.  You would need a structural engineer to look 
it over to know for certain.  

 

Hams used to say, if the storm did not take down their antenna, it was not tall 
enough...

 

From: Steve Jones 

Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2020 3:19 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: [AFMUG] my adulterated nprm

 

so We have a new site, we cannot mount anything to structure. this is what im 
putting up there, its a modified nprm6 with 3 sets of 25g. our leased space has 
a ton of obstructions to clear. 

 

my only concern is if the 25g will be sufficient for a 3' antenna at 8 feet (3 
feet above the brackets)

 

we have 3100lbs ballast up there and another 900 if we need it. We will have 
potentially 2 pmp 4 radio clusters, we will add 5 foot to the 25g for that. 
this is 100 feet in the air and made from 1 1/2' angle iron

 

 

roast me

 

 




  _  


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  _  


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Re: [AFMUG] my adulterated nprm

[Chuck McCown]

NPRM notice of proposed rule making 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 20, 2020, at 6:08 PM, Steve Jones  wrote:
> 
> 
> Pretty solid in the shop with the angle supports, but if  it feels loose up 
> top we will do that too, probably will anyway to hang pipe 
> 
>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 6:14 PM Jaime Solorza  
>> wrote:
>> I would build a cross support system from tower section to tower 
>> section...make it sturdier
>> 
>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2020, 2:18 PM Steve Jones  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> so it exists now
>>> 
 On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 8:41 PM Steve Jones  
 wrote:
 Yeah, its 40lbs per square foot and landlord said it's no issue. It's a 
 concrete silo
 
> On Sat, Oct 3, 2020, 6:27 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
> I assume you’ve determined the roof can support 3100 lbs in something 
> like 100 sq ft.  Sounds like a lot, but I guess it’s no worse than 15 big 
> guys standing together.
> 
>  
> 
> From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
> Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2020 5:49 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] my adulterated nprm
> 
>  
> 
> pipe hangers and unistrut
> 
>  
> 
> From: Steve Jones
> 
> Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2020 4:30 PM
> 
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] my adulterated nprm
> 
>  
> 
> i still need to figure out a clean attachment for the struts, there will 
> be a gap between the tower sections and the angle iron, it comes at 45 
> degrees as well, so I dont think heavy u bolts will sit right without 
> crimping. The sections are on the rohn footplates welded to the base.
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 5:02 PM Steve Jones  
> wrote:
> 
> that nprm6 was pushing its luck, they had only put 480lbs of the ballast 
> (I had calculated at something like 850), it didnt move, the grain leg 
> got knocked over, the other providers 3 foot pipe tuned and bent. I was 
> surprised about the lock, i think since the antenna was only centerline 
> height of 5.5 feet and I cut the remaining pipe off I slipped in just 
> under, and the wind may have not straightligned across the top of the 
> bin. It should have been on the ground with the grain leg.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 4:34 PM  wrote:
> 
> At 100 mph you will see about 35 PSF with your antenna roughly 250 lbs of 
> force if facing the wind. 
> 
> Looks like you will have an 8’ vertical lever and a roughly 4 foot or 
> less horizontal lever, so a 2:1 advantage.
> 
>  
> 
> That will will lift 500 lbs of ballast on the base due to the dish.  More 
> depending on all the other junk. 
> 
> You are probably going to be OK.  You would need a structural engineer to 
> look it over to know for certain. 
> 
>  
> 
> Hams used to say, if the storm did not take down their antenna, it was 
> not tall enough...
> 
>  
> 
> From: Steve Jones
> 
> Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2020 3:19 PM
> 
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> 
> Subject: [AFMUG] my adulterated nprm
> 
>  
> 
> so We have a new site, we cannot mount anything to structure. this is 
> what im putting up there, its a modified nprm6 with 3 sets of 25g. our 
> leased space has a ton of obstructions to clear.
> 
>  
> 
> my only concern is if the 25g will be sufficient for a 3' antenna at 8 
> feet (3 feet above the brackets)
> 
>  
> 
> we have 3100lbs ballast up there and another 900 if we need it. We will 
> have potentially 2 pmp 4 radio clusters, we will add 5 foot to the 25g 
> for that. this is 100 feet in the air and made from 1 1/2' angle iron
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> roast me
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [AFMUG] GPON - alternate wavelengths

[chuck]

I know Calix will allow NGPON to overlay on GPON without effort. 

-Original Message- 
From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 1:19 PM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] GPON - alternate wavelengths 


That Black Magic question got me wondering something.

GPON, XGPON, NGPON all use different wavelengths.  So with a splitter at 
the head end of the cable you can lay multiple PON networks on the same 
fiber for an easy upgrade path.


Do any vendors sell PON optics on non-standard wavelengths?  Like 
suppose I decide tomorrow that I hate Calix and I want to try Nokia.  I 
could put in a 1x2 splitter and put Calix XGPON and Nokia NGPON on the 
same fiber, but maybe NGPON is more expensive and wouldn't it be nice if 
I could just overlay a second XGPON network on a different wavelength?



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Re: [AFMUG] GPON - alternate wavelengths

[fiberrun]

Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 
From: "Chris Fabien" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] GPON - alternate wavelengths
>
> Jared - " What you can do is transport multiple PONs over a single fiber 
>using CWDM wavelengths. However, you need to do an OEO conversion at the 
>remote side back to standard wavelengths and have separate 
> PON trees for each wavelength."
> Can you elaborate on what it takes to make this happen? 
  It's basically just a fancy media converter with one GPON SFP for each PON 
and one corresponding CWDM SFP. Add muxes on both ends and do GPON<->CWDM on 
one end and CWDM<->GPON on the other end.

> Is that powered equipment at the OEO conversion or passive? Interesting... 
  You need power to do the OEO conversion.

  Link to example vendor: 
https://www.gofoton.com/product/gpon-468-channel-line-combiner/


Jared

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Re: [AFMUG] GPON - alternate wavelengths

[fiberrun]

> Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 
> From: "Adam Moffett" 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] GPON - alternate wavelengths
>
> I may have missed something important.  A vendor said that different PON 
> systems could co-exist, and I took that at face value.
  True. Different PON systems can co-exist: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NG-PON2
  They do however have to be using different PON standards, and thus different 
wavelengths each.
 
> Do you always need a filter at the ONT for that to work?
  No. You only need filters if you try to run multiple same generation PONs. 
This is assuming you could get custom optics for them and run them on 
different, close by wavelengths.
  If the wavelengths are off by too much, they will be filtered out 
automatically. This is why you can run RF video overlay at 1550 nm and do OTDR 
shots at 1625 nm on a live network without causing interference to the PON. 


Jared

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Re: [AFMUG] HUD funds for Broadband

[Steve Jones]

am i the only one who wonders how many iterations of funding for the same
locations will go out before someone catches on

On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 11:23 AM Gino A. Villarini 
wrote:

> Anyone has information about HUD funds available for Broadband deployments
> on Section8 Housing?
>
>
>
>
>
> *Gino*
> *Villarini *Founder/President
> @gvillarini
> t: 787.273.4143 Ext. 204
> [image: aeronet-logo]  [image: inc500]
>  [image: fb-logo]
>   [image: insta-logo]
>   [image: in-logo]
>   [image:
> tw-logo]
> 
>   [image: yt-logo]
> 
> www.aeronetpr.com | Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, PR 00968
>
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[AFMUG] Need some help setting up LibreNMS alerts on core network.

[Sam Lambie]

Is there anyone out there that could point me in the right direction to get
alerting set up correctly? I have tried a few times to get AP's to alert me
when they fail, but Libre seems to have some random ways to determine
whether a device is up or down.

Sam

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575-758-7598 Office
www.Taosnet.com 
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Re: [AFMUG] GPON - alternate wavelengths

[Chris Fabien]

 Jared - " What you can do is transport multiple PONs over a single fiber
using CWDM wavelengths. However, you need to do an OEO conversion at the
remote side back to standard wavelengths and have separate PON trees for
each wavelength."
Can you elaborate on what it takes to make this happen? Is that powered
equipment at the OEO conversion or passive? Interesting...

On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 3:56 PM  wrote:

> > Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020
> > From: "Adam Moffett" 
> > Subject: [AFMUG] GPON - alternate wavelengths
> >
> > Do any vendors sell PON optics on non-standard wavelengths?
>   Not as far as I know. I recall an old press release [1], but I don't
> recall anything coming of it.
>   The reason standard wavelengths are used is because, well, they are
> standard and any other wavelengths would not have scale benefits.
>
>
> [1]
> https://www.lightwaveonline.com/optical-tech/article/16671134/source-photonics-unveils-cwdm-gpon-olt-and-ont
>
>
> > I could just overlay a second XGPON network on a different wavelength?
>   If you did you'd have problems on the client side. The ONU would either
> have to be custom made to be wavelength selective or you'd have to install
> the correct wavelength filters at each drop.
>   Doable in theory, but expensive.
>
>   What you can do is transport multiple PONs over a single fiber using
> CWDM wavelengths. However, you need to do an OEO conversion at the remote
> side back to standard wavelengths and have separate PON trees for each
> wavelength.
>
> Jared
>
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Re: [AFMUG] GPON - alternate wavelengths

[Adam Moffett]

I may have missed something important.  A vendor said that different PON 
systems could co-exist, and I took that at face value.


Do you always need a filter at the ONT for that to work?


On 10/20/2020 3:56 PM, fiber...@mail.com wrote:

Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020
From: "Adam Moffett" 
Subject: [AFMUG] GPON - alternate wavelengths

Do any vendors sell PON optics on non-standard wavelengths?

   Not as far as I know. I recall an old press release [1], but I don't recall 
anything coming of it.
   The reason standard wavelengths are used is because, well, they are standard 
and any other wavelengths would not have scale benefits.


[1] 
https://www.lightwaveonline.com/optical-tech/article/16671134/source-photonics-unveils-cwdm-gpon-olt-and-ont



I could just overlay a second XGPON network on a different wavelength?

   If you did you'd have problems on the client side. The ONU would either have 
to be custom made to be wavelength selective or you'd have to install the 
correct wavelength filters at each drop.
   Doable in theory, but expensive.

   What you can do is transport multiple PONs over a single fiber using CWDM 
wavelengths. However, you need to do an OEO conversion at the remote side back 
to standard wavelengths and have separate PON trees for each wavelength.

Jared



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Re: [AFMUG] GPON - alternate wavelengths

[fiberrun]

> Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020
> From: "Adam Moffett" 
> Subject: [AFMUG] GPON - alternate wavelengths
>
> Do any vendors sell PON optics on non-standard wavelengths?
  Not as far as I know. I recall an old press release [1], but I don't recall 
anything coming of it.
  The reason standard wavelengths are used is because, well, they are standard 
and any other wavelengths would not have scale benefits.


[1] 
https://www.lightwaveonline.com/optical-tech/article/16671134/source-photonics-unveils-cwdm-gpon-olt-and-ont


> I could just overlay a second XGPON network on a different wavelength?
  If you did you'd have problems on the client side. The ONU would either have 
to be custom made to be wavelength selective or you'd have to install the 
correct wavelength filters at each drop.
  Doable in theory, but expensive.

  What you can do is transport multiple PONs over a single fiber using CWDM 
wavelengths. However, you need to do an OEO conversion at the remote side back 
to standard wavelengths and have separate PON trees for each wavelength.

Jared

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[AFMUG] GPON - alternate wavelengths

[Adam Moffett]

That Black Magic question got me wondering something.

GPON, XGPON, NGPON all use different wavelengths.  So with a splitter at 
the head end of the cable you can lay multiple PON networks on the same 
fiber for an easy upgrade path.


Do any vendors sell PON optics on non-standard wavelengths?  Like 
suppose I decide tomorrow that I hate Calix and I want to try Nokia.  I 
could put in a 1x2 splitter and put Calix XGPON and Nokia NGPON on the 
same fiber, but maybe NGPON is more expensive and wouldn't it be nice if 
I could just overlay a second XGPON network on a different wavelength?



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[AFMUG] HUD funds for Broadband

[Gino A. Villarini]

Anyone has information about HUD funds available for Broadband deployments on 
Section8 Housing?



Gino Villarini
Founder/President
@gvillarini
t: 787.273.4143 Ext. 204
[https://gallery.mailchimp.com/491678685aaddc31e08616413/images/2a19bac2-257e-4f73-9295-a89a9c48a166.png]
[https://image.ibb.co/noQeyp/inc500.png] 
  
[https://image.ibb.co/e4pBB9/fb-logo.png]  
[https://image.ibb.co/nxuuW9/insta-logo.png] 
   
[https://image.ibb.co/jhSEW9/in-logo.png] 
 
[https://image.ibb.co/dqqq4U/tw-logo.png] 

[https://image.ibb.co/bAJcjU/yt-logo.png] 

www.aeronetpr.com | Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 
Guaynabo, PR 00968
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Re: [AFMUG] OT - Twinkies do go bad

[Adam Moffett]

But is the fungus edible?  Maybe a shriveled fungus Twinkie could be a 
delicacy like blue cheese.



On 10/20/2020 12:01 PM, justsumname wrote:

whew now the world can end.   I'm ready.
-

On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 10:46 AM Ken Hohhof > wrote:



https://www.npr.org/2020/10/15/923411578/a-disturbing-twinkie-that-has-so-far-defied-science



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Re: [AFMUG] OT - Twinkies do go bad

[justsumname]

whew now the world can end.   I'm ready.
-

On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 10:46 AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

>
> https://www.npr.org/2020/10/15/923411578/a-disturbing-twinkie-that-has-so-far-defied-science
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Re: [AFMUG] Fiber - Black Magic

[Adam Moffett]

On 10/20/20 7:27 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:
BiDi is newer.  It's WDM built into the interface card.  You'd use 
duplex fibers because the circuit pre-dates BiDi, or the two fibers 
are already there and you have nothing to lose by using them both.  
The theoretical benefit of duplex is that you have the bandwidth of 
two fibers.  At one time it might also have been cheaper interface 
cards, but obviously not anymore.  You'd be dumb not to use BiDi 
today, but you might not be dumb to have spare fibers available for 
some future circumstance when a duplex interface will make sense.



40G QSFP+ BiDi requires two strands (one for each 20Gbps channel).


which will be one of those "future circumstances".  I'd still plan 
on a single fiber to any individual premises and have extras for that 
one place that needs 40G or 100G. I think we do a 12F drop cable into 
any business prem or MDU, but houses are single fiber drops.




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Re: [AFMUG] Fiber - Black Magic

[Bill Prince]

Wait. What? If you have to run two strands, is it still BiDi?

bp


On 10/20/2020 8:00 AM, Seth Mattinen wrote:

On 10/20/20 7:27 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:
BiDi is newer.  It's WDM built into the interface card.  You'd use 
duplex fibers because the circuit pre-dates BiDi, or the two fibers 
are already there and you have nothing to lose by using them both.  
The theoretical benefit of duplex is that you have the bandwidth of 
two fibers.  At one time it might also have been cheaper interface 
cards, but obviously not anymore.  You'd be dumb not to use BiDi 
today, but you might not be dumb to have spare fibers available for 
some future circumstance when a duplex interface will make sense.



40G QSFP+ BiDi requires two strands (one for each 20Gbps channel).



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Re: [AFMUG] Fiber - Black Magic

[Seth Mattinen]

On 10/20/20 7:27 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:
BiDi is newer.  It's WDM built into the interface card.  You'd use 
duplex fibers because the circuit pre-dates BiDi, or the two fibers are 
already there and you have nothing to lose by using them both.  The 
theoretical benefit of duplex is that you have the bandwidth of two 
fibers.  At one time it might also have been cheaper interface cards, 
but obviously not anymore.  You'd be dumb not to use BiDi today, but you 
might not be dumb to have spare fibers available for some future 
circumstance when a duplex interface will make sense.



40G QSFP+ BiDi requires two strands (one for each 20Gbps channel).

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Re: [AFMUG] Fiber - Black Magic

[chuck]

And you had to make sure to terminate the ends and not exceed the collision 
domain distance.
And anyone on the network could jam the whole network.  I know some EE grad 
students that jammed the whole ME department.  Every time they saw a 
transmission they told their Ethernet card to transmit a jamming signal.  But 
only sometimes.  Took them a week to figure it out.

From: Bill Prince 
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 8:36 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber - Black Magic

I remember in the early days, we ran a fat 1/2" diameter coax cable around the 
building, and you ran "taps" into it with a special little drill. Then you ran 
another coax to the device you were connecting to the ethernet. Oh man, those 
were the days. Good old copper.




bp
On 10/20/2020 7:27 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:



  There were lots of copper interfaces before everything settled on the 8-pin 
modular telephone plug.  10-Base 2 could use any of the coax connectors (F, N, 
BNC, etc), there were 15-pin D-sub connectors, vampire taps, EAD/TAE, and 
probably more exotic stuff.  We ended up with 8pin modular because in practice 
it turned out to be the most useful for the most people in the most 
circumstances.  There's probably an old engineer who will talk your head off 
about the benefits of TAE compared to the 8-pin telephone plug, but we settled 
on the 8-pin telephone plug anyway.

  The fiber stuff will settle out and become easier too.  It's already happened 
(more or less) on the physical connectors.  Anything simplex in outside plant 
is SC, anything on the LAN is LC.   Duplex outside plant might be LC too.  
Anything else is just old.  


  BiDi is newer.  It's WDM built into the interface card.  You'd use duplex 
fibers because the circuit pre-dates BiDi, or the two fibers are already there 
and you have nothing to lose by using them both.  The theoretical benefit of 
duplex is that you have the bandwidth of two fibers.  At one time it might also 
have been cheaper interface cards, but obviously not anymore.  You'd be dumb 
not to use BiDi today, but you might not be dumb to have spare fibers available 
for some future circumstance when a duplex interface will make sense.




  On 10/20/2020 7:42 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:

Right. But why would you use two fibers when BIDIs exist?  Is there some 
benefit?


  On Oct 20, 2020, at 7:37 AM, Mark Radabaugh mailto:m...@amplex.net wrote:


    

  BIDI means you are using one fiber strand.   Otherwise it’s 2 fibers, one 
for transmit and the other for receive. 

  It’s not black magic - but you do need to have some knowledge of what you 
are doing.

  Mark


On Oct 20, 2020, at 7:18 AM, Matt Hoppes 
 wrote:

Is there a reason there isn’t more a standard for the optics that go 
with fiber?

It seems any time a cut over is done there’s always the question: which 
optic are you using?  Bi-Di or not ?  Then some equipment only supports certain 
optics. 

Twice now we’ve tried to do 1gig to 10gig wave upgrades with our 
providers (some large country wide names) and it’s taken multiple attempts 
because of optic issues. 

Copper - you just plug it in and it works. Why have we not gotten to 
this point with fiber?
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Re: [AFMUG] Fiber - Black Magic

[chuck]

Ug, N connectors and vampire taps.  Ug.  

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 8:27 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Fiber - Black Magic



There were lots of copper interfaces before everything settled on the 8-pin 
modular telephone plug.  10-Base 2 could use any of the coax connectors (F, N, 
BNC, etc), there were 15-pin D-sub connectors, vampire taps, EAD/TAE, and 
probably more exotic stuff.  We ended up with 8pin modular because in practice 
it turned out to be the most useful for the most people in the most 
circumstances.  There's probably an old engineer who will talk your head off 
about the benefits of TAE compared to the 8-pin telephone plug, but we settled 
on the 8-pin telephone plug anyway.

The fiber stuff will settle out and become easier too.  It's already happened 
(more or less) on the physical connectors.  Anything simplex in outside plant 
is SC, anything on the LAN is LC.   Duplex outside plant might be LC too.  
Anything else is just old.  


BiDi is newer.  It's WDM built into the interface card.  You'd use duplex 
fibers because the circuit pre-dates BiDi, or the two fibers are already there 
and you have nothing to lose by using them both.  The theoretical benefit of 
duplex is that you have the bandwidth of two fibers.  At one time it might also 
have been cheaper interface cards, but obviously not anymore.  You'd be dumb 
not to use BiDi today, but you might not be dumb to have spare fibers available 
for some future circumstance when a duplex interface will make sense.




On 10/20/2020 7:42 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:

  Right. But why would you use two fibers when BIDIs exist?  Is there some 
benefit?


On Oct 20, 2020, at 7:37 AM, Mark Radabaugh mailto:m...@amplex.net wrote:


  

BIDI means you are using one fiber strand.   Otherwise it’s 2 fibers, one 
for transmit and the other for receive. 

It’s not black magic - but you do need to have some knowledge of what you 
are doing.

Mark


  On Oct 20, 2020, at 7:18 AM, Matt Hoppes 
 wrote:

  Is there a reason there isn’t more a standard for the optics that go with 
fiber?

  It seems any time a cut over is done there’s always the question: which 
optic are you using?  Bi-Di or not ?  Then some equipment only supports certain 
optics. 

  Twice now we’ve tried to do 1gig to 10gig wave upgrades with our 
providers (some large country wide names) and it’s taken multiple attempts 
because of optic issues. 

  Copper - you just plug it in and it works. Why have we not gotten to this 
point with fiber?
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Re: [AFMUG] Fiber - Black Magic

[Bill Prince]

  
  
I remember in the early days, we ran a fat 1/2" diameter coax
  cable around the building, and you ran "taps" into it with a
  special little drill. Then you ran another coax to the device you
  were connecting to the ethernet. Oh man, those were the days. Good
  old copper.



bp

On 10/20/2020 7:27 AM, Adam Moffett
  wrote:


  
  
  
  There were lots of copper interfaces before everything settled
on the 8-pin modular telephone plug.  10-Base 2 could use any of
the coax connectors (F, N, BNC, etc), there were 15-pin D-sub
connectors, vampire taps, EAD/TAE, and probably more exotic
stuff.  We ended up with 8pin modular because in practice it
turned out to be the most useful for the most people in the most
circumstances.  There's probably an old engineer who will talk
your head off about the benefits of TAE compared to the 8-pin
telephone plug, but we settled on the 8-pin telephone plug
anyway.
  The fiber stuff will settle out and become easier too.  It's
already happened (more or less) on the physical connectors. 
Anything simplex in outside plant is SC, anything on the LAN is
LC.   Duplex outside plant might be LC too.  Anything else is
just old.  
  
  BiDi is newer.  It's WDM built into the interface card.  You'd
use duplex fibers because the circuit pre-dates BiDi, or the two
fibers are already there and you have nothing to lose by using
them both.  The theoretical benefit of duplex is that you have
the bandwidth of two fibers.  At one time it might also have
been cheaper interface cards, but obviously not anymore.  You'd
be dumb not to use BiDi today, but you might not be dumb to have
spare fibers available for some future circumstance when a
duplex interface will make sense.
  
  
  
  On 10/20/2020 7:42 AM, Matt Hoppes
wrote:
  
  

Right. But why would you use two fibers when
  BIDIs exist?  Is there some benefit?

  On Oct 20, 2020, at 7:37 AM, Mark
Radabaugh 
wrote:

  


  




BIDI means you are using one fiber strand.  
  Otherwise it’s 2 fibers, one for transmit and the other
  for receive. 


It’s not black magic - but you do need to have
  some knowledge of what you are doing.


Mark

  

  On Oct 20, 2020, at 7:18 AM, Matt Hoppes

wrote:
  
  
Is there a reason there isn’t more a
  standard for the optics that go with fiber?
  
  It seems any time a cut over is done there’s
  always the question: which optic are you using?
   Bi-Di or not ?  Then some equipment only supports
  certain optics. 
  
  Twice now we’ve tried to do 1gig to 10gig wave
  upgrades with our providers (some large country
  wide names) and it’s taken multiple attempts
  because of optic issues. 
  
  Copper - you just plug it in and it works. Why
  have we not gotten to this point with fiber?
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Re: [AFMUG] Fiber - Black Magic

[Adam Moffett]

There were lots of copper interfaces before everything settled on the 
8-pin modular telephone plug.  10-Base 2 could use any of the coax 
connectors (F, N, BNC, etc), there were 15-pin D-sub connectors, vampire 
taps, EAD/TAE, and probably more exotic stuff.  We ended up with 8pin 
modular because in practice it turned out to be the most useful for the 
most people in the most circumstances.  There's probably an old engineer 
who will talk your head off about the benefits of TAE compared to the 
8-pin telephone plug, but we settled on the 8-pin telephone plug anyway.


The fiber stuff will settle out and become easier too.  It's already 
happened (more or less) on the physical connectors. Anything simplex in 
outside plant is SC, anything on the LAN is LC.   Duplex outside plant 
might be LC too.  Anything else is just old.


BiDi is newer.  It's WDM built into the interface card.  You'd use 
duplex fibers because the circuit pre-dates BiDi, or the two fibers are 
already there and you have nothing to lose by using them both.  The 
theoretical benefit of duplex is that you have the bandwidth of two 
fibers.  At one time it might also have been cheaper interface cards, 
but obviously not anymore.  You'd be dumb not to use BiDi today, but you 
might not be dumb to have spare fibers available for some future 
circumstance when a duplex interface will make sense.



On 10/20/2020 7:42 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
Right. But why would you use two fibers when BIDIs exist?  Is there 
some benefit?



On Oct 20, 2020, at 7:37 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:

 Recursive Standards - 927 indefinitely : xkcd

BIDI means you are using one fiber strand. Otherwise it’s 2 fibers, 
one for transmit and the other for receive.


It’s not black magic - but you do need to have some knowledge of what 
you are doing.


Mark

On Oct 20, 2020, at 7:18 AM, Matt Hoppes 
> wrote:


Is there a reason there isn’t more a standard for the optics that go 
with fiber?


It seems any time a cut over is done there’s always the question: 
which optic are you using?  Bi-Di or not ?  Then some equipment only 
supports certain optics.


Twice now we’ve tried to do 1gig to 10gig wave upgrades with our 
providers (some large country wide names) and it’s taken multiple 
attempts because of optic issues.


Copper - you just plug it in and it works. Why have we not gotten to 
this point with fiber?

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Re: [AFMUG] Fiber - Black Magic

[fiberrun]

> Right. But why would you use two fibers when BIDIs exist?  Is there some 
> benefit?
  Inventory management and sparing becomes a bit more complicated with BiDi 
optics as they come in pairs. There is also some variation in wavelengths used, 
further potentially complicating things.

  Of course, if tunable BiDi optics became a thing all problems would be solved.


Jared

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Re: [AFMUG] Fiber - Black Magic

[Matt Hoppes]

Right. But why would you use two fibers when BIDIs exist?  Is there some 
benefit?

> On Oct 20, 2020, at 7:37 AM, Mark Radabaugh  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> BIDI means you are using one fiber strand.   Otherwise it’s 2 fibers, one for 
> transmit and the other for receive. 
> 
> It’s not black magic - but you do need to have some knowledge of what you are 
> doing.
> 
> Mark
> 
>> On Oct 20, 2020, at 7:18 AM, Matt Hoppes  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Is there a reason there isn’t more a standard for the optics that go with 
>> fiber?
>> 
>> It seems any time a cut over is done there’s always the question: which 
>> optic are you using?  Bi-Di or not ?  Then some equipment only supports 
>> certain optics. 
>> 
>> Twice now we’ve tried to do 1gig to 10gig wave upgrades with our providers 
>> (some large country wide names) and it’s taken multiple attempts because of 
>> optic issues. 
>> 
>> Copper - you just plug it in and it works. Why have we not gotten to this 
>> point with fiber?
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Re: [AFMUG] Fiber - Black Magic

[Mark Radabaugh]

BIDI means you are using one fiber strand.   Otherwise it’s 2 fibers, one for 
transmit and the other for receive. 

It’s not black magic - but you do need to have some knowledge of what you are 
doing.

Mark

> On Oct 20, 2020, at 7:18 AM, Matt Hoppes  
> wrote:
> 
> Is there a reason there isn’t more a standard for the optics that go with 
> fiber?
> 
> It seems any time a cut over is done there’s always the question: which optic 
> are you using?  Bi-Di or not ?  Then some equipment only supports certain 
> optics. 
> 
> Twice now we’ve tried to do 1gig to 10gig wave upgrades with our providers 
> (some large country wide names) and it’s taken multiple attempts because of 
> optic issues. 
> 
> Copper - you just plug it in and it works. Why have we not gotten to this 
> point with fiber?
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[AFMUG] Fiber - Black Magic

[Matt Hoppes]

Is there a reason there isn’t more a standard for the optics that go with fiber?

It seems any time a cut over is done there’s always the question: which optic 
are you using?  Bi-Di or not ?  Then some equipment only supports certain 
optics. 

Twice now we’ve tried to do 1gig to 10gig wave upgrades with our providers 
(some large country wide names) and it’s taken multiple attempts because of 
optic issues. 

Copper - you just plug it in and it works. Why have we not gotten to this point 
with fiber?
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