Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code
These kids today with their neural implants. In my day, we had to use our fingers to point and click. -Original Message- From: AF On Behalf Of dmmoff...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2024 9:13 AM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code My first was a Commodore 128, which you almost always ran in C64 mode because most of the software was written for the C64 rather than break compatibility with the established user base. I was probably 7 years old. If anyone had a Commodore you may recall that the OS was a BASIC interpreter. Remember LOAD "*",8,1 ? My dad was a controls technician, and he got the Commodore because he had to learn how to program logic controllers in BASIC. They still controlled machinery with more basic components, but digital controllers were the path forward because you could change or correct a process machine without rewiring it. He had a book of example programs and I would type them out and run them. By age 9 I could do some pretty solid GOTO and GOSUB spaghetti. In high school the drafting class started with pencils and then you transitioned to AutoCAD in the 2nd year, and then I learned LISP because AutoCAD had a LISP interpreter built in. I think in the mid 90's there was a crop of kids that grew up in a world of scripts and BASIC code on Apples and Commodores. DOS .bat scripts too. When you wanted to hire entry level PC repair or tech support people there was this pool of kids who already had useful knowledge and interest. I don't know how today's youth learn anything in the pointy-clicky world they grow up in, but I'd bet it's not so easy to hire young nerds. I also wonder if you old guys feel the same about me. "Spoiled kid grew up with high level languages. He'll never understand digital logic like we do since we had to learn with paper tapes, and switches, and punch cards." Was there some guy from the 1930's saying "Kids these days with their punch cards! They never had to place instructions on a mechanical drum computer so they'll never understand the sequencing and timing like we do." -Adam -Original Message- From: AF On Behalf Of Bill Prince Sent: Friday, May 03, 2024 2:56 PM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code Oh yeah. My first interaction with a computer was at the local JC in northern Minnesota. We had a teletype that was connected to "something" at U of M in Minneapolis. We would punch out programs (I think in Basic or Fortran) onto paper tape, then feed the program through the paper tape reader attached to the teletype. The first computer I ever touched was one made by Olivetti. It was a desktop thing roughly 2'x2', and maybe 6 or 8 inches tall. Programs could be keyed in through a front keypad, and stored on a magnetic card about the same size as a Hollerith card. Memory was very limited, I remember only about 120 or so words, but it had a couple dozen registers. You could sacrifice some of the registers to hold instructions, and stretch your program beyond 120 words depending on how cleverly you could sacrifice registers. The thing had 2 lights above the keypad, one green and one red. The green light would flash every time an instruction was executed (about 1 per second, except for floating point). Floating point instructions took several seconds each. If you did something illegal (like divide by zero), the red light would come on, and the program halted. My bit-banging days were with a little company called EMR (Electro-Mechanical Research IIRC). Big ass machine maybe 20 or 25 feet long and almost 7 feet tall. Had core memory measured in KB (way less than 1 MB). Rather than cooling the core memory, it was kept in an oven that held it at a constant 50° C (or close to that). It took two "cards" to make a flip flop; each card was roughly 4x4 inches and would have either AND, OR, NAND, NOR gates on it. They would cross-couple a couple of NAND gates to make 1 flip flop. Discrete components; all diodes and transistors. When we repaired a problem; usually isolated to a single card, we would take the bad card back to the shop and replace the bad diode or transistor. bp On 5/3/2024 10:51 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote: > First computer I actually programmed was an altair 8080 programmed > with the front panel switches. > First computer I ever touched and played with was a terminal connected > to a mainframe somewhere in a science museum in Oregon. It had a moon > lander simulator on it. > > -----Original Message- From: Bill Prince > Sent: Friday, May 3, 2024 11:24 AM > To: af@af.afmug.com > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction > Code > > I programmed
Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code
My first was a Commodore 128, which you almost always ran in C64 mode because most of the software was written for the C64 rather than break compatibility with the established user base. I was probably 7 years old. If anyone had a Commodore you may recall that the OS was a BASIC interpreter. Remember LOAD "*",8,1 ? My dad was a controls technician, and he got the Commodore because he had to learn how to program logic controllers in BASIC. They still controlled machinery with more basic components, but digital controllers were the path forward because you could change or correct a process machine without rewiring it. He had a book of example programs and I would type them out and run them. By age 9 I could do some pretty solid GOTO and GOSUB spaghetti. In high school the drafting class started with pencils and then you transitioned to AutoCAD in the 2nd year, and then I learned LISP because AutoCAD had a LISP interpreter built in. I think in the mid 90's there was a crop of kids that grew up in a world of scripts and BASIC code on Apples and Commodores. DOS .bat scripts too. When you wanted to hire entry level PC repair or tech support people there was this pool of kids who already had useful knowledge and interest. I don't know how today's youth learn anything in the pointy-clicky world they grow up in, but I'd bet it's not so easy to hire young nerds. I also wonder if you old guys feel the same about me. "Spoiled kid grew up with high level languages. He'll never understand digital logic like we do since we had to learn with paper tapes, and switches, and punch cards." Was there some guy from the 1930's saying "Kids these days with their punch cards! They never had to place instructions on a mechanical drum computer so they'll never understand the sequencing and timing like we do." -Adam -Original Message- From: AF On Behalf Of Bill Prince Sent: Friday, May 03, 2024 2:56 PM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code Oh yeah. My first interaction with a computer was at the local JC in northern Minnesota. We had a teletype that was connected to "something" at U of M in Minneapolis. We would punch out programs (I think in Basic or Fortran) onto paper tape, then feed the program through the paper tape reader attached to the teletype. The first computer I ever touched was one made by Olivetti. It was a desktop thing roughly 2'x2', and maybe 6 or 8 inches tall. Programs could be keyed in through a front keypad, and stored on a magnetic card about the same size as a Hollerith card. Memory was very limited, I remember only about 120 or so words, but it had a couple dozen registers. You could sacrifice some of the registers to hold instructions, and stretch your program beyond 120 words depending on how cleverly you could sacrifice registers. The thing had 2 lights above the keypad, one green and one red. The green light would flash every time an instruction was executed (about 1 per second, except for floating point). Floating point instructions took several seconds each. If you did something illegal (like divide by zero), the red light would come on, and the program halted. My bit-banging days were with a little company called EMR (Electro-Mechanical Research IIRC). Big ass machine maybe 20 or 25 feet long and almost 7 feet tall. Had core memory measured in KB (way less than 1 MB). Rather than cooling the core memory, it was kept in an oven that held it at a constant 50° C (or close to that). It took two "cards" to make a flip flop; each card was roughly 4x4 inches and would have either AND, OR, NAND, NOR gates on it. They would cross-couple a couple of NAND gates to make 1 flip flop. Discrete components; all diodes and transistors. When we repaired a problem; usually isolated to a single card, we would take the bad card back to the shop and replace the bad diode or transistor. bp On 5/3/2024 10:51 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote: > First computer I actually programmed was an altair 8080 programmed > with the front panel switches. > First computer I ever touched and played with was a terminal connected > to a mainframe somewhere in a science museum in Oregon. It had a moon > lander simulator on it. > > -----Original Message- From: Bill Prince > Sent: Friday, May 3, 2024 11:24 AM > To: af@af.afmug.com > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction > Code > > I programmed the first computers I worked on in binary. You would > fat-finger instructions in through the front console, one bit at a time. > > bp > > > On 5/3/2024 10:12 AM, Larry Smith via AF wrote: >> On Fri May 3 2024 11:37, Chuck McCown via AF wrote: >>> At least I am not older than FORmula TRANslation or Common
Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code
My cherry was broken by an IBM 370 ( a 360 that had been hand wired to virtual memory in 73 ) programming in Fortran. We also rubbed sticks together to make fire... On 5/3/24 10:51, Chuck McCown via AF wrote: First computer I actually programmed was an altair 8080 programmed with the front panel switches. First computer I ever touched and played with was a terminal connected to a mainframe somewhere in a science museum in Oregon. It had a moon lander simulator on it. -Original Message- From: Bill Prince Sent: Friday, May 3, 2024 11:24 AM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code I programmed the first computers I worked on in binary. You would fat-finger instructions in through the front console, one bit at a time. bp On 5/3/2024 10:12 AM, Larry Smith via AF wrote: On Fri May 3 2024 11:37, Chuck McCown via AF wrote: At least I am not older than FORmula TRANslation or Common Business Oriented Language. Hmmm, I programmed in both -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code
Oh yeah. My first interaction with a computer was at the local JC in northern Minnesota. We had a teletype that was connected to "something" at U of M in Minneapolis. We would punch out programs (I think in Basic or Fortran) onto paper tape, then feed the program through the paper tape reader attached to the teletype. The first computer I ever touched was one made by Olivetti. It was a desktop thing roughly 2'x2', and maybe 6 or 8 inches tall. Programs could be keyed in through a front keypad, and stored on a magnetic card about the same size as a Hollerith card. Memory was very limited, I remember only about 120 or so words, but it had a couple dozen registers. You could sacrifice some of the registers to hold instructions, and stretch your program beyond 120 words depending on how cleverly you could sacrifice registers. The thing had 2 lights above the keypad, one green and one red. The green light would flash every time an instruction was executed (about 1 per second, except for floating point). Floating point instructions took several seconds each. If you did something illegal (like divide by zero), the red light would come on, and the program halted. My bit-banging days were with a little company called EMR (Electro-Mechanical Research IIRC). Big ass machine maybe 20 or 25 feet long and almost 7 feet tall. Had core memory measured in KB (way less than 1 MB). Rather than cooling the core memory, it was kept in an oven that held it at a constant 50° C (or close to that). It took two "cards" to make a flip flop; each card was roughly 4x4 inches and would have either AND, OR, NAND, NOR gates on it. They would cross-couple a couple of NAND gates to make 1 flip flop. Discrete components; all diodes and transistors. When we repaired a problem; usually isolated to a single card, we would take the bad card back to the shop and replace the bad diode or transistor. bp On 5/3/2024 10:51 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote: First computer I actually programmed was an altair 8080 programmed with the front panel switches. First computer I ever touched and played with was a terminal connected to a mainframe somewhere in a science museum in Oregon. It had a moon lander simulator on it. -Original Message- From: Bill Prince Sent: Friday, May 3, 2024 11:24 AM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code I programmed the first computers I worked on in binary. You would fat-finger instructions in through the front console, one bit at a time. bp On 5/3/2024 10:12 AM, Larry Smith via AF wrote: On Fri May 3 2024 11:37, Chuck McCown via AF wrote: At least I am not older than FORmula TRANslation or Common Business Oriented Language. Hmmm, I programmed in both -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code
Yeah Ken - same here. WATFIV (WATerloo Fortran IV) - punch cards - stacks and stacks . . . Ohio University - turnaround time was overnight . . . . Dave On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 1:29 PM Ken Hohhof wrote: > Haha, I see in my bookshelf a Fortran 90 book and a CD for DIGITAL Visual > Fortran. I think it was Fortran IV that we used in school, had to submit > decks of punch cards and wait for the printout. You learned to code > carefully when the turnaround time was several hours. > > > > *From:* AF *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF > *Sent:* Friday, May 3, 2024 11:38 AM > *To:* af@af.afmug.com > *Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com > *Subject:* [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code > > > > I am older than Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code > > Damn. > > At least I am not older than FORmula TRANslation or Common Business > Oriented Language. > > > > That would make me Really Old... [image: Winking smile];-) > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code
First computer I actually programmed was an altair 8080 programmed with the front panel switches. First computer I ever touched and played with was a terminal connected to a mainframe somewhere in a science museum in Oregon. It had a moon lander simulator on it. -Original Message- From: Bill Prince Sent: Friday, May 3, 2024 11:24 AM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code I programmed the first computers I worked on in binary. You would fat-finger instructions in through the front console, one bit at a time. bp On 5/3/2024 10:12 AM, Larry Smith via AF wrote: On Fri May 3 2024 11:37, Chuck McCown via AF wrote: At least I am not older than FORmula TRANslation or Common Business Oriented Language. Hmmm, I programmed in both -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code
Some things we think as "new" aren't so new. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/telemedicine-predicted-in-1925-124140 942/ -Original Message- From: AF On Behalf Of Bill Prince Sent: Friday, May 3, 2024 12:24 PM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code I programmed the first computers I worked on in binary. You would fat-finger instructions in through the front console, one bit at a time. bp On 5/3/2024 10:12 AM, Larry Smith via AF wrote: > On Fri May 3 2024 11:37, Chuck McCown via AF wrote: >> At least I am not older than FORmula TRANslation or Common Business >> Oriented Language. > Hmmm, I programmed in both > -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code
I programmed the first computers I worked on in binary. You would fat-finger instructions in through the front console, one bit at a time. bp On 5/3/2024 10:12 AM, Larry Smith via AF wrote: On Fri May 3 2024 11:37, Chuck McCown via AF wrote: At least I am not older than FORmula TRANslation or Common Business Oriented Language. Hmmm, I programmed in both -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code
Haha, I see in my bookshelf a Fortran 90 book and a CD for DIGITAL Visual Fortran. I think it was Fortran IV that we used in school, had to submit decks of punch cards and wait for the printout. You learned to code carefully when the turnaround time was several hours. From: AF On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF Sent: Friday, May 3, 2024 11:38 AM To: af@af.afmug.com Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com Subject: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code I am older than Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code Damn. At least I am not older than FORmula TRANslation or Common Business Oriented Language. That would make me Really Old... ;-) -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code
On Fri May 3 2024 11:37, Chuck McCown via AF wrote: > At least I am not older than FORmula TRANslation or Common Business > Oriented Language. Hmmm, I programmed in both -- Larry Smith lesm...@ecsis.net -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
[AFMUG] OT Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code
I am older than Beginner's All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code Damn. At least I am not older than FORmula TRANslation or Common Business Oriented Language. That would make me Really Old... ;-) -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
