Re: [AFMUG] Moving Virtual Machines

2021-09-06 Thread Nate Burke 
No, trying to copy the files on the same datastore fails at the same point as 
copying the files remotely. 

On September 5, 2021 7:52:22 PM EDT, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:
>Can you move or copy the file locally and then download the copy?
>
> 
>
> 
>
>From: AF  On Behalf Of Nate Burke
>Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2021 5:10 PM
>To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Moving Virtual Machines
>
> 
>
>It's a HP DL380G7 with 6 140GB disks in a Raid10.  Wouldn't the Raid 
>controller recognize the error and fail the drive?  
>
>Although I don't think I've ever had a hard drive fail 'gracefully'  For me 
>they usually go from working fine to preventing the machine from POSTing with 
>no middle ground.  
>
>One one of my home machines, i just had a data drive that's been installed for 
>years crash the machine, and keeps windows from booting, but when i plug it 
>into a USB/SATA adapter, it works fine on the same machine.  
>
>On 9/5/2021 3:18 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
>
>I'd be tempted to think a bad sector on the host disk.
>
>Maybe fsck or whatever is equivalent for that file system.
>
> 
>
>On 9/5/2021 3:29 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
>
>I just tried to copy the VMDK file to another folder on the same datastore, 
>and it stopped copying at about 25GB out of the 33GB file.  The same time that 
>it stops on my other copy methods.  Does this mean the VMDK file is corrupt?  
>The Virtual server itself seems to be running fine.  
>
>On 9/3/2021 9:04 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:
>
>NFS is the only way I've found to be worthwhile for speed purposes.
>
>
> 
>
>Josh Luthman
>24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
>Direct: 937-552-2343
>1100 Wayne St
>Suite 1337
>Troy, OH 45373
>
> 
>
> 
>
>On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 8:35 AM Adam Moffett <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>
>locally copy to USB hard drive?
>
>On 9/2/2021 9:17 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
>> I have a couple stand alone ESXi servers (6.5.0).  I'm trying to move 
>> a 30GB server image from one server to another.  Trying to download 
>> the VM machine image file onto my desktop with VCenter, it gets about 
>> 80% done and times out.  Same with trying Veeam backup tools.  It 
>> throws an error after about 80%.  I'm running an SCP transfer now, but 
>> it's only running at about 300Kb/s (Searching online, I guess SCP and 
>> ESXi is artificially slow for some reason) so I won't know if it 
>> completes for another day.
>>
>> Is there anything that I'm missing to get the VMImage off the physical 
>> hardware?  I've moved lots of VMImages before just like this, and 
>> never had a problem.  The Virtual server is shut down while I'm trying 
>> to move the image files.
>>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Moving Virtual Machines

2021-09-06 Thread Mike Hammett 
RAID sucks at error prevention and recovery. All modern filesystems *REQUIRE* 
that RAID not be used. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Nate Burke"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Sunday, September 5, 2021 4:10:11 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Moving Virtual Machines 


It's a HP DL380G7 with 6 140GB disks in a Raid10. Wouldn't the Raid controller 
recognize the error and fail the drive? 

Although I don't think I've ever had a hard drive fail 'gracefully' For me they 
usually go from working fine to preventing the machine from POSTing with no 
middle ground. 

One one of my home machines, i just had a data drive that's been installed for 
years crash the machine, and keeps windows from booting, but when i plug it 
into a USB/SATA adapter, it works fine on the same machine. 

On 9/5/2021 3:18 PM, Adam Moffett wrote: 



I'd be tempted to think a bad sector on the host disk. 
Maybe fsck or whatever is equivalent for that file system. 



On 9/5/2021 3:29 PM, Nate Burke wrote: 



I just tried to copy the VMDK file to another folder on the same datastore, and 
it stopped copying at about 25GB out of the 33GB file. The same time that it 
stops on my other copy methods. Does this mean the VMDK file is corrupt? The 
Virtual server itself seems to be running fine. 

On 9/3/2021 9:04 AM, Josh Luthman wrote: 



NFS is the only way I've found to be worthwhile for speed purposes. 





Josh Luthman 
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340 
Direct: 937-552-2343 
1100 Wayne St 
Suite 1337 
Troy, OH 45373 



On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 8:35 AM Adam Moffett < dmmoff...@gmail.com > wrote: 


locally copy to USB hard drive? 

On 9/2/2021 9:17 PM, Nate Burke wrote: 
> I have a couple stand alone ESXi servers (6.5.0). I'm trying to move 
> a 30GB server image from one server to another. Trying to download 
> the VM machine image file onto my desktop with VCenter, it gets about 
> 80% done and times out. Same with trying Veeam backup tools. It 
> throws an error after about 80%. I'm running an SCP transfer now, but 
> it's only running at about 300Kb/s (Searching online, I guess SCP and 
> ESXi is artificially slow for some reason) so I won't know if it 
> completes for another day. 
> 
> Is there anything that I'm missing to get the VMImage off the physical 
> hardware? I've moved lots of VMImages before just like this, and 
> never had a problem. The Virtual server is shut down while I'm trying 
> to move the image files. 
> 

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Re: [AFMUG] Moving Virtual Machines

2021-09-05 Thread John Osmon 
When I've had problems converting/moving virtual disks, I've sometimes
resorted to backing up the VM by booting it into clonezilla.

Then building an appropriate VM on the new hypervisor, and restoring
via the clonezilla image.



On Mon, Sep 06, 2021 at 12:27:35AM -0500, Steve Jones wrote:
> If the vmx is problematic, the vmdk is irrelevant. Virtualbox is the last
> resort. Get the vmdk in there, dick with the vmx til it boots and use
> VMware converter. Set aside 14 hours and a case of Miller light for this.
> Virtual box is where incompetence such as mine shines.
> 
> On Sun, Sep 5, 2021, 6:53 PM  wrote:
> 
> > Can you move or copy the file locally and then download the copy?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Nate Burke
> > *Sent:* Sunday, September 05, 2021 5:10 PM
> > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Moving Virtual Machines
> >
> >
> >
> > It's a HP DL380G7 with 6 140GB disks in a Raid10.  Wouldn't the Raid
> > controller recognize the error and fail the drive?
> >
> > Although I don't think I've ever had a hard drive fail 'gracefully'  For
> > me they usually go from working fine to preventing the machine from POSTing
> > with no middle ground.
> >
> > One one of my home machines, i just had a data drive that's been installed
> > for years crash the machine, and keeps windows from booting, but when i
> > plug it into a USB/SATA adapter, it works fine on the same machine.
> >
> > On 9/5/2021 3:18 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
> >
> > I'd be tempted to think a bad sector on the host disk.
> >
> > Maybe fsck or whatever is equivalent for that file system.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 9/5/2021 3:29 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
> >
> > I just tried to copy the VMDK file to another folder on the same
> > datastore, and it stopped copying at about 25GB out of the 33GB file.  The
> > same time that it stops on my other copy methods.  Does this mean the VMDK
> > file is corrupt?  The Virtual server itself seems to be running fine.
> >
> > On 9/3/2021 9:04 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:
> >
> > NFS is the only way I've found to be worthwhile for speed purposes.
> >
> >
> >
> > Josh Luthman
> > 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
> > Direct: 937-552-2343
> > 1100 Wayne St
> > Suite 1337
> > Troy, OH 45373
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 8:35 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:
> >
> > locally copy to USB hard drive?
> >
> > On 9/2/2021 9:17 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
> > > I have a couple stand alone ESXi servers (6.5.0).  I'm trying to move
> > > a 30GB server image from one server to another.  Trying to download
> > > the VM machine image file onto my desktop with VCenter, it gets about
> > > 80% done and times out.  Same with trying Veeam backup tools.  It
> > > throws an error after about 80%.  I'm running an SCP transfer now, but
> > > it's only running at about 300Kb/s (Searching online, I guess SCP and
> > > ESXi is artificially slow for some reason) so I won't know if it
> > > completes for another day.
> > >
> > > Is there anything that I'm missing to get the VMImage off the physical
> > > hardware?  I've moved lots of VMImages before just like this, and
> > > never had a problem.  The Virtual server is shut down while I'm trying
> > > to move the image files.
> > >
> >
> > --
> > AF mailing list
> > AF@af.afmug.com
> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [AFMUG] Moving Virtual Machines

2021-09-05 Thread Steve Jones 
If the vmx is problematic, the vmdk is irrelevant. Virtualbox is the last
resort. Get the vmdk in there, dick with the vmx til it boots and use
VMware converter. Set aside 14 hours and a case of Miller light for this.
Virtual box is where incompetence such as mine shines.

On Sun, Sep 5, 2021, 6:53 PM  wrote:

> Can you move or copy the file locally and then download the copy?
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Nate Burke
> *Sent:* Sunday, September 05, 2021 5:10 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Moving Virtual Machines
>
>
>
> It's a HP DL380G7 with 6 140GB disks in a Raid10.  Wouldn't the Raid
> controller recognize the error and fail the drive?
>
> Although I don't think I've ever had a hard drive fail 'gracefully'  For
> me they usually go from working fine to preventing the machine from POSTing
> with no middle ground.
>
> One one of my home machines, i just had a data drive that's been installed
> for years crash the machine, and keeps windows from booting, but when i
> plug it into a USB/SATA adapter, it works fine on the same machine.
>
> On 9/5/2021 3:18 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
>
> I'd be tempted to think a bad sector on the host disk.
>
> Maybe fsck or whatever is equivalent for that file system.
>
>
>
> On 9/5/2021 3:29 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
>
> I just tried to copy the VMDK file to another folder on the same
> datastore, and it stopped copying at about 25GB out of the 33GB file.  The
> same time that it stops on my other copy methods.  Does this mean the VMDK
> file is corrupt?  The Virtual server itself seems to be running fine.
>
> On 9/3/2021 9:04 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:
>
> NFS is the only way I've found to be worthwhile for speed purposes.
>
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 8:35 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
> locally copy to USB hard drive?
>
> On 9/2/2021 9:17 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
> > I have a couple stand alone ESXi servers (6.5.0).  I'm trying to move
> > a 30GB server image from one server to another.  Trying to download
> > the VM machine image file onto my desktop with VCenter, it gets about
> > 80% done and times out.  Same with trying Veeam backup tools.  It
> > throws an error after about 80%.  I'm running an SCP transfer now, but
> > it's only running at about 300Kb/s (Searching online, I guess SCP and
> > ESXi is artificially slow for some reason) so I won't know if it
> > completes for another day.
> >
> > Is there anything that I'm missing to get the VMImage off the physical
> > hardware?  I've moved lots of VMImages before just like this, and
> > never had a problem.  The Virtual server is shut down while I'm trying
> > to move the image files.
> >
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Moving Virtual Machines

2021-09-05 Thread dmmoffett 
Can you move or copy the file locally and then download the copy?

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Nate Burke
Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2021 5:10 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Moving Virtual Machines

 

It's a HP DL380G7 with 6 140GB disks in a Raid10.  Wouldn't the Raid controller 
recognize the error and fail the drive?  

Although I don't think I've ever had a hard drive fail 'gracefully'  For me 
they usually go from working fine to preventing the machine from POSTing with 
no middle ground.  

One one of my home machines, i just had a data drive that's been installed for 
years crash the machine, and keeps windows from booting, but when i plug it 
into a USB/SATA adapter, it works fine on the same machine.  

On 9/5/2021 3:18 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:

I'd be tempted to think a bad sector on the host disk.

Maybe fsck or whatever is equivalent for that file system.

 

On 9/5/2021 3:29 PM, Nate Burke wrote:

I just tried to copy the VMDK file to another folder on the same datastore, and 
it stopped copying at about 25GB out of the 33GB file.  The same time that it 
stops on my other copy methods.  Does this mean the VMDK file is corrupt?  The 
Virtual server itself seems to be running fine.  

On 9/3/2021 9:04 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:

NFS is the only way I've found to be worthwhile for speed purposes.


 

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

 

 

On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 8:35 AM Adam Moffett mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

locally copy to USB hard drive?

On 9/2/2021 9:17 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
> I have a couple stand alone ESXi servers (6.5.0).  I'm trying to move 
> a 30GB server image from one server to another.  Trying to download 
> the VM machine image file onto my desktop with VCenter, it gets about 
> 80% done and times out.  Same with trying Veeam backup tools.  It 
> throws an error after about 80%.  I'm running an SCP transfer now, but 
> it's only running at about 300Kb/s (Searching online, I guess SCP and 
> ESXi is artificially slow for some reason) so I won't know if it 
> completes for another day.
>
> Is there anything that I'm missing to get the VMImage off the physical 
> hardware?  I've moved lots of VMImages before just like this, and 
> never had a problem.  The Virtual server is shut down while I'm trying 
> to move the image files.
>

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Re: [AFMUG] Moving Virtual Machines

2021-09-05 Thread Nate Burke 
It's a HP DL380G7 with 6 140GB disks in a Raid10.  Wouldn't the Raid 
controller recognize the error and fail the drive?


Although I don't think I've ever had a hard drive fail 'gracefully'  For 
me they usually go from working fine to preventing the machine from 
POSTing with no middle ground.


One one of my home machines, i just had a data drive that's been 
installed for years crash the machine, and keeps windows from booting, 
but when i plug it into a USB/SATA adapter, it works fine on the same 
machine.


On 9/5/2021 3:18 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:


I'd be tempted to think a bad sector on the host disk.

Maybe fsck or whatever is equivalent for that file system.


On 9/5/2021 3:29 PM, Nate Burke wrote:


I just tried to copy the VMDK file to another folder on the same 
datastore, and it stopped copying at about 25GB out of the 33GB 
file.  The same time that it stops on my other copy methods.  Does 
this mean the VMDK file is corrupt?  The Virtual server itself seems 
to be running fine.


On 9/3/2021 9:04 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:

NFS is the only way I've found to be worthwhile for speed purposes.

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 8:35 AM Adam Moffett > wrote:


locally copy to USB hard drive?

On 9/2/2021 9:17 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
> I have a couple stand alone ESXi servers (6.5.0). I'm trying
to move
> a 30GB server image from one server to another. Trying to
download
> the VM machine image file onto my desktop with VCenter, it
gets about
> 80% done and times out.  Same with trying Veeam backup tools.  It
> throws an error after about 80%.  I'm running an SCP transfer
now, but
> it's only running at about 300Kb/s (Searching online, I guess
SCP and
> ESXi is artificially slow for some reason) so I won't know if it
> completes for another day.
>
> Is there anything that I'm missing to get the VMImage off the
physical
> hardware?  I've moved lots of VMImages before just like this, and
> never had a problem.  The Virtual server is shut down while
I'm trying
> to move the image files.
>

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Re: [AFMUG] Moving Virtual Machines

2021-09-05 Thread Adam Moffett 

I'd be tempted to think a bad sector on the host disk.

Maybe fsck or whatever is equivalent for that file system.


On 9/5/2021 3:29 PM, Nate Burke wrote:


I just tried to copy the VMDK file to another folder on the same 
datastore, and it stopped copying at about 25GB out of the 33GB file.  
The same time that it stops on my other copy methods.  Does this mean 
the VMDK file is corrupt?  The Virtual server itself seems to be 
running fine.


On 9/3/2021 9:04 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:

NFS is the only way I've found to be worthwhile for speed purposes.

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 8:35 AM Adam Moffett > wrote:


locally copy to USB hard drive?

On 9/2/2021 9:17 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
> I have a couple stand alone ESXi servers (6.5.0).  I'm trying
to move
> a 30GB server image from one server to another.  Trying to
download
> the VM machine image file onto my desktop with VCenter, it gets
about
> 80% done and times out.  Same with trying Veeam backup tools.  It
> throws an error after about 80%.  I'm running an SCP transfer
now, but
> it's only running at about 300Kb/s (Searching online, I guess
SCP and
> ESXi is artificially slow for some reason) so I won't know if it
> completes for another day.
>
> Is there anything that I'm missing to get the VMImage off the
physical
> hardware?  I've moved lots of VMImages before just like this, and
> never had a problem.  The Virtual server is shut down while I'm
trying
> to move the image files.
>

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Re: [AFMUG] Moving Virtual Machines

2021-09-05 Thread Nate Burke 
I just tried to copy the VMDK file to another folder on the same 
datastore, and it stopped copying at about 25GB out of the 33GB file.  
The same time that it stops on my other copy methods.  Does this mean 
the VMDK file is corrupt?  The Virtual server itself seems to be running 
fine.


On 9/3/2021 9:04 AM, Josh Luthman wrote:

NFS is the only way I've found to be worthwhile for speed purposes.

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 8:35 AM Adam Moffett > wrote:


locally copy to USB hard drive?

On 9/2/2021 9:17 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
> I have a couple stand alone ESXi servers (6.5.0).  I'm trying to
move
> a 30GB server image from one server to another.  Trying to download
> the VM machine image file onto my desktop with VCenter, it gets
about
> 80% done and times out.  Same with trying Veeam backup tools.  It
> throws an error after about 80%.  I'm running an SCP transfer
now, but
> it's only running at about 300Kb/s (Searching online, I guess
SCP and
> ESXi is artificially slow for some reason) so I won't know if it
> completes for another day.
>
> Is there anything that I'm missing to get the VMImage off the
physical
> hardware?  I've moved lots of VMImages before just like this, and
> never had a problem.  The Virtual server is shut down while I'm
trying
> to move the image files.
>

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Re: [AFMUG] Moving Virtual Machines

2021-09-03 Thread Josh Luthman 
NFS is the only way I've found to be worthwhile for speed purposes.

Josh Luthman
24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 8:35 AM Adam Moffett  wrote:

> locally copy to USB hard drive?
>
> On 9/2/2021 9:17 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
> > I have a couple stand alone ESXi servers (6.5.0).  I'm trying to move
> > a 30GB server image from one server to another.  Trying to download
> > the VM machine image file onto my desktop with VCenter, it gets about
> > 80% done and times out.  Same with trying Veeam backup tools.  It
> > throws an error after about 80%.  I'm running an SCP transfer now, but
> > it's only running at about 300Kb/s (Searching online, I guess SCP and
> > ESXi is artificially slow for some reason) so I won't know if it
> > completes for another day.
> >
> > Is there anything that I'm missing to get the VMImage off the physical
> > hardware?  I've moved lots of VMImages before just like this, and
> > never had a problem.  The Virtual server is shut down while I'm trying
> > to move the image files.
> >
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Moving Virtual Machines

2021-09-03 Thread Adam Moffett 

locally copy to USB hard drive?

On 9/2/2021 9:17 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
I have a couple stand alone ESXi servers (6.5.0).  I'm trying to move 
a 30GB server image from one server to another.  Trying to download 
the VM machine image file onto my desktop with VCenter, it gets about 
80% done and times out.  Same with trying Veeam backup tools.  It 
throws an error after about 80%.  I'm running an SCP transfer now, but 
it's only running at about 300Kb/s (Searching online, I guess SCP and 
ESXi is artificially slow for some reason) so I won't know if it 
completes for another day.


Is there anything that I'm missing to get the VMImage off the physical 
hardware?  I've moved lots of VMImages before just like this, and 
never had a problem.  The Virtual server is shut down while I'm trying 
to move the image files.




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Re: [AFMUG] Moving Virtual Machines

2021-09-02 Thread Zach Underwood 
Like Steve mentioned VMware converter will work also if you have nfs share
you can mount that on both server and move the vm to nfs on inside then
move off nfs on other server then add back to inventory on new server.

On Thu, Sep 2, 2021, 9:40 PM Steve Jones  wrote:

> VMware converter is my fail safe. If you have vcenter server it's fairly
> painless to migrate to the new host with the guest powered off
>
> On Thu, Sep 2, 2021, 8:19 PM Nate Burke  wrote:
>
>> I have a couple stand alone ESXi servers (6.5.0).  I'm trying to move a
>> 30GB server image from one server to another.  Trying to download the VM
>> machine image file onto my desktop with VCenter, it gets about 80% done
>> and times out.  Same with trying Veeam backup tools.  It throws an error
>> after about 80%.  I'm running an SCP transfer now, but it's only running
>> at about 300Kb/s (Searching online, I guess SCP and ESXi is artificially
>> slow for some reason) so I won't know if it completes for another day.
>>
>> Is there anything that I'm missing to get the VMImage off the physical
>> hardware?  I've moved lots of VMImages before just like this, and never
>> had a problem.  The Virtual server is shut down while I'm trying to move
>> the image files.
>>
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Re: [AFMUG] Moving Virtual Machines

2021-09-02 Thread Steve Jones 
VMware converter is my fail safe. If you have vcenter server it's fairly
painless to migrate to the new host with the guest powered off

On Thu, Sep 2, 2021, 8:19 PM Nate Burke  wrote:

> I have a couple stand alone ESXi servers (6.5.0).  I'm trying to move a
> 30GB server image from one server to another.  Trying to download the VM
> machine image file onto my desktop with VCenter, it gets about 80% done
> and times out.  Same with trying Veeam backup tools.  It throws an error
> after about 80%.  I'm running an SCP transfer now, but it's only running
> at about 300Kb/s (Searching online, I guess SCP and ESXi is artificially
> slow for some reason) so I won't know if it completes for another day.
>
> Is there anything that I'm missing to get the VMImage off the physical
> hardware?  I've moved lots of VMImages before just like this, and never
> had a problem.  The Virtual server is shut down while I'm trying to move
> the image files.
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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