Re: [agi] Nao Nao

[Ian Parker]

There is one further point which is absolutely fundamental
in operating system/compiler theory. The user should be unaware of how the
work is divided up. A robot may simply have a WiFi router and very little
else, or it might have considerable on board processing. The user should not
be aware of this.


  = Ian Parker



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[agi] Grand Cooperative Projects

[Mike Tintner]

like this (& the Genome Project):

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/13/health/research/13alzheimer.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

should become an ever bigger part of sci. & tech. Of course, with Alzheimer's 
there is a great deal of commonly recognized ground. Not so with AGI. It might 
be interesting to speculate on what could be common ground in AGI & associated 
robotics.  Common technological approaches, like the common protocols for 
robots suggested here, seem to me vulnerable to the probability that the chosen 
technologies may be simply wrong for AGI.


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Re: [agi] Compressed Cross-Indexed Concepts

[Jim Bromer]

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:40 AM, John G. Rose wrote:

> The ideological would still need be expressed mathematically.
>

I don't understand this.  Computers can represent related data objects that
may be best considered without using mathematical terms (or with only
incidental mathematical functions related to things like the numbers of
objects.)


>
> I said: > I think the more important question is how does a general concept
> be interpreted across a range of different kinds of ideas.  Actually this is
> not so difficult, but what I am getting at is how are sophisticated
> conceptual  interrelations integrated and resolved?
>
> John said: Depends on the structure. We would want to build it such that
> this happens at various levels or the various multidimensional densities.
> But at the same time complex state is preserved until proven benefits show
> themselves.
>

Your use of the term 'densities' suggests that you are thinking about the
kinds of statistical relations that have been talked about a number of times
in this group.   The whole problem I have with statistical models is that
they don't typically represent the modelling variations that could be and
would need to be encoded into the ideas that are being represented.  For
example a Bayesian Network does imply that a resulting evaluation would
subsequently be encoded into the network evaluation process, but only in a
limited manner.  It doesn't for example show how an idea could change the
model, even though that would be easy to imagine.
Jim Bromer


On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:40 AM, John G. Rose wrote:

> > -Original Message-
> > From: Jim Bromer [mailto:jimbro...@gmail.com]
> >
> >
> > Well, if it was a mathematical structure then we could start developing
> > prototypes using familiar mathematical structures.  I think the structure
> has
> > to involve more ideological relationships than mathematical.
>
> The ideological would still need be expressed mathematically.
>
> > For instance
> > you can apply a idea to your own thinking in a such a way that you are
> > capable of (gradually) changing how you think about something.  This
> means
> > that an idea can be a compression of some greater change in your own
> > programming.
>
> Mmm yes or like a key.
>
> > While the idea in this example would be associated with a
> > fairly strong notion of meaning, since you cannot accurately understand
> the
> > full consequences of the change it would be somewhat vague at first.  (It
> > could be a very precise idea capable of having strong effect, but the
> details of
> > those effects would not be known until the change had progressed.)
> >
>
> Yes. It would need to have receptors, an affinity something like that, or
> somehow enable an efficiency change.
>
> > I think the more important question is how does a general concept be
> > interpreted across a range of different kinds of ideas.  Actually this is
> not so
> > difficult, but what I am getting at is how are sophisticated conceptual
> > interrelations integrated and resolved?
> > Jim
>
> Depends on the structure. We would want to build it such that this happens
> at various levels or the various multidimensional densities. But at the
> same
> time complex state is preserved until proven benefits show themselves.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
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> agi
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Re: [agi] Compressed Cross-Indexed Concepts

[Jim Bromer]

It would be easy to relativize a weighted network so that it could be used
to include ideas that can effectively reshape the network (or at least
reshape the virtual network) but it is not easy to see how this could be
done intelligently enough to produce actual intelligence.  But maybe I
should try it sometime just to get some idea of what it would do.
Jim Bromer



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[agi] Single Neurons Can Detect Sequences

[Jim Bromer]

Single Neurons Can Detect Sequences
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100812151632.htm



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RE: [agi] Nao Nao

[John G. Rose]

I suppose that part of the "work" that it does is making people feel good
and being a neat conversation piece.

 

Interoperability and communications protocols can facilitate the path to
AGI. Just like the many protocols used on the internet. I haven't looked at
any for robotics specifically though there definitely are some. But having
worked with many myself I am familiar with limitations, shortcomings and
issues. Protocols is where it's at when making diverse systems work together
and having good protocols initially can save vast amounts of engineering
work. It's bang for the buck in a big way.

 

John


From: Mike Tintner [mailto:tint...@blueyonder.co.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 9:02 AM
To: agi
Subject: Re: [agi] Nao Nao

 

By not "made to perform work", you mean that it is not sturdy enough? Are
any half-way AGI robots made to perform work, vs production line robots? (I
think the idea of performing useful work should be a goal).

 

The protocol is obviously a good idea, but you're not suggesting it per se
will lead to AGI?

 

From: John G. Rose   

Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 3:17 PM

To: agi   

Subject: RE: [agi] Nao Nao

 

Typically the demo is some of the best that it can do. It looks like the
robot is a mass produced model that has some really basic handling
capabilities, not that it is made to perform work. It could still have
relatively advanced microprocessor and networking system, IOW parts of the
brain could run on centralized servers. I don't think they did that BUT it
could.

 

But it looks like one Nao can talk to another Nao. What's needed here is a
standardized robot communication protocol. So a Nao could talk to a vacuum
cleaner or a video cam or any other device that supports the protocol.
Companies may resist this at first as they want to grab market share and
don't understand the benefit.

 

John

 

From: Mike Tintner [mailto:tint...@blueyonder.co.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 4:56 AM
To: agi
Subject: Re: [agi] Nao Nao

 

John,

 

Any more detailed thoughts about its precise handling capabilities? Did it,
first, not pick up the duck independently,  (without human assistance)? If
it did,  what do you think would be the range of its object handling?  (I
had an immediate question about all this - have asked the site for further
clarificiation - but nothing yet).

 

From: John G. Rose   

Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 5:46 AM

To: agi   

Subject: RE: [agi] Nao Nao

 

I wasn't meaning to portray pessimism.

 

And that little sucker probably couldn't pick up a knife yet.

 

But this is a paradigm change happening where we will have many networked
mechanical entities. This opens up a whole new world of security and privacy
issues...  

 

John

 

From: David Jones [mailto:davidher...@gmail.com] 

Way too pessimistic in my opinion. 

On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 7:06 PM, John G. Rose 
wrote:

Aww, so cute.

 

I wonder if it has a Wi-Fi connection, DHCP's an IP address, and relays
sensory information back to the main servers with all the other Nao's all
collecting personal data in a massive multi-agent geo-distributed
robo-network.

 

So cuddly!

 

And I wonder if it receives and executes commands, commands that come in
over the network from whatever interested corporation or government pays the
most for access.

 

Such a sweet little friendly Nao. Everyone should get one :)

 

John


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RE: [agi] Compressed Cross-Indexed Concepts

[John G. Rose]

> -Original Message-
> From: Jim Bromer [mailto:jimbro...@gmail.com]
> 
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:40 AM, John G. Rose 
> wrote:
> The ideological would still need be expressed mathematically.
> 
> I don't understand this.  Computers can represent related data objects
that may
> be best considered without using mathematical terms (or with only
incidental
> mathematical functions related to things like the numbers of objects.)
> 

The difference between data and code, or math and data, sometimes need not
be as dichotomous. 

> 
> I said: > I think the more important question is how does a
general concept
> be interpreted across a range of different kinds of ideas.  Actually this
is not so
> difficult, but what I am getting at is how are sophisticated
> conceptual  interrelations integrated and resolved?
> 
> John said: Depends on the structure. We would want to build it such that
this
> happens at various levels or the various multidimensional densities. But
at the
> same time complex state is preserved until proven benefits show
themselves.
> 
> Your use of the term 'densities' suggests that you are thinking about the
kinds of
> statistical relations that have been talked about a number of times in
this
> group.   The whole problem I have with statistical models is that they
don't
> typically represent the modelling variations that could be and would need
to be
> encoded into the ideas that are being represented.  For example a Bayesian
> Network does imply that a resulting evaluation would subsequently be
encoded
> into the network evaluation process, but only in a limited manner.  It
doesn't for
> example show how an idea could change the model, even though that would be
> easy to imagine.
> Jim Bromer
> 

I also have some issues with heavily based statistical models. When I was
referring to densities I was really meaning an interconnectional
multidimensionality in the multigraph/hypergraph intelligence network, IOW a
partly combinatorial edge of chaos. There is a combination of state and
computational potential energy that an incoming idea, represented as a
data/math combo, would result in various partly self-organizational (SOM)
changes depending on how the key - the idea - effects computational energy
potential. And this is balanced against K-complexity related local extrema. 

For the statistical mechanisms I would use for more of the narrow AI stuff
that is needed and also for situations that you can't come up with something
more concrete/discrete.

John



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