Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: zeckalpha is to be registered.

[Kyle Marek-Spartz]

I assumed... Hazing of sorts. Makes sense to weed out those unwilling
to put up with criticism and informs initiates about some of the
subtleties of the Agoran way. Clever.

Kyle Marek-Spartz



On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 1:10 AM, Sean Hunt  wrote:
> Kyle Marek-Spartz wrote:
>> Unnecessary... According to 869 this is the phrasing necessary for 
>> registration.
>>
>> The verb "to be registered" means to become a player (i.e., to
>>       have one's citizenship changed from Unregistered to Registered),
>>       and the verb "to be deregistered" means to cease to be a player
>>       (i.e., to have one's citizenship changed from Registered to
>>       Unregistered).  Where the verb "to register" or "to deregister"
>>       is used without an explicit direct object, the action is
>>       implicitly reflexive.
>> The home page says "To register as a player, just post a message to
>> the "business" mailing list saying that you register" which is un
>> specific. I could have posted a message consisting solely of "that you
>> register" and according to the home page I should be.
>>
>> You're giving me a hard time though, so I am as well. ;)
>>
>> Kyle Marek-Spartz
>
> Debating whether X counts as a registration is an Agoran pastime. My
> registration statement was "I, coppro, am registering", and that was
> plenty controversial!
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: zeckalpha is to be registered.

[Sean Hunt]

Kyle Marek-Spartz wrote:
> Unnecessary... According to 869 this is the phrasing necessary for 
> registration.
> 
> The verb "to be registered" means to become a player (i.e., to
>   have one's citizenship changed from Unregistered to Registered),
>   and the verb "to be deregistered" means to cease to be a player
>   (i.e., to have one's citizenship changed from Registered to
>   Unregistered).  Where the verb "to register" or "to deregister"
>   is used without an explicit direct object, the action is
>   implicitly reflexive.
> The home page says "To register as a player, just post a message to
> the "business" mailing list saying that you register" which is un
> specific. I could have posted a message consisting solely of "that you
> register" and according to the home page I should be.
> 
> You're giving me a hard time though, so I am as well. ;)
> 
> Kyle Marek-Spartz

Debating whether X counts as a registration is an Agoran pastime. My
registration statement was "I, coppro, am registering", and that was
plenty controversial!

Re: DIS: recently unalienated, perhaps misunderstanding rules...

[Kyle Marek-Spartz]

Thank you.

Kyle Marek-Spartz



On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 7:35 AM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-05-30 at 01:37 -0500, Kyle Marek-Spartz wrote:
>> Rule 2150/6 seems contradictory
>> Personhood
>>
>>      A person is an entity defined as such by rules with power of at
>>      least 2.  A person CAN generally be the subject of rights and
>>      obligations under the rules.
>>
>>      Any biological organism that is generally capable of
>>      communicating by email in English (including via a translation
>>      service) is a person.
>>
>>      A first-class person is a person of a biological nature.  All
>>      other persons are second-class.
>>
>>      The basis of a first-class person is the singleton set
>>      consisting of that person.
>>
>> In my understanding of it, because it says "Any biological organism
>> ... is a person." and goes on to say "A first-class person is a person
>> of a biological nature.  All other persons are second-class." there
>> can be no second class persons.
>
> Biological organisms that can communicate by email in English are
> persons. Other entities might also be persons; but only if a rule with a
> power of at least 2 says they are. (In particular, certain partnerships
> and the country of Canada are.)
>
> --
> ais523
>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: zeckalpha is to be registered.

[Kyle Marek-Spartz]

Unnecessary... According to 869 this is the phrasing necessary for registration.

The verb "to be registered" means to become a player (i.e., to
  have one's citizenship changed from Unregistered to Registered),
  and the verb "to be deregistered" means to cease to be a player
  (i.e., to have one's citizenship changed from Registered to
  Unregistered).  Where the verb "to register" or "to deregister"
  is used without an explicit direct object, the action is
  implicitly reflexive.
The home page says "To register as a player, just post a message to
the "business" mailing list saying that you register" which is un
specific. I could have posted a message consisting solely of "that you
register" and according to the home page I should be.

You're giving me a hard time though, so I am as well. ;)

Kyle Marek-Spartz



On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Geoffrey Spear  wrote:
> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 2:31 AM, Kyle Marek-Spartz  
> wrote:
>> zeckalpha is to be registered.
>
> Welcome, maybe.
>
> I CFJ on: {{zeckalpha is a Player.}}
>
> Evidence: above-quoted grammatically-problematic message.
>

DIS: Re: BUS: intent to deputise

[Kerim Aydin]

On Sat, 30 May 2009, Geoffrey Spear wrote:
> I intend to deputise for the Herald to announce that OscarMeyr became
> Speaker on 20 May 2009.

Oh sorry is that a duty now?  Missed that.  I'll announce it tomorrow
when I catch up with records.  -G.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Notary] Contract Switch Report

[comex]

On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 6:32 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> Denied; no you didn't. You enacted an amendment to it that meant that
> you could make it public by publishing its text and membership. However,
> you did not then publish its text and membership.

On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Sean Hunt  wrote:
> I agree to the IBA.
> I flip the IBA's Disclosure to Public; its text is listed above; its
> parties are myself, comex, and BobTHJ.
> I flip the IBA's Sentiment to Legalistic.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Leaving

[Alex Smith]

On Wed, 2009-05-27 at 20:43 +0200, Jonatan Kilhamn wrote:
> > I join FRC.

Quoting someone joining a contract doesn't cause you to join it. If you
meant to join the Fantasy Rules Contest, please say so specifically.

-- 
ais523
Notary

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Notary] Contract Switch Report

[Sean Hunt]

Alex Smith wrote:
> On Sun, 2009-05-24 at 09:25 -0400, comex wrote:
>> CoE: what about the IBA?
> 
> Denied; although you amended the contract so that anyone could make it
> public, you never did. Text and membership, please.
> 
CoE: what about the IBA? I made it public as soon as I joined.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [CotC] CFJs 2541-42 assigned to Rodlen

[Rodlen]

On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 10:51 AM, comex  wrote:

> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 12:53 AM, Sean Hunt  wrote:
> > Rodlen wrote:
> >> I judge CFJ 2541 FALSE and CFJ 2542 TRUE.  In the first case, Quazie
> >> attempted to announce that the rule repealed itself without causing it
> >> to repeal itself.  In the second case, e did cause it to repeal itself.
> >> Players had to specifically cause it to repeal itself, not just announce
> >> that it repealed itself.
> >>
> >> --
> >> --Rodlen
> > I intend, with 2 support, to appeal this judgment. Rule 105 prevents
> > Rule Changes from happening other than an instrument taking effect;
> > Quazie saying e causes a rule to repeal itself is hardly part of that
> > rule's effect.
> >
> > Furthermore, R101(iv) prevents a Rule Change that was not subject to
> > public review.
>
> Note that the Rule contained this text:
>
>  Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, any Notice of Violation
>  alleging a rule violation prior to the adoption of this rule is
>  invalid.  If this rule has existed for at least 90 days, then
>  any player CAN (by announcement) cause it to repeal itself.
>
> Considering that the mechanism of repeal was approved through public
> vote, I'd hardly consider it not subject to public review.
>

Bit late, isn't it?  He already realized that he misread something involved.

-- 
--Rodlen

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: intent to deputise

[comex]

On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Aaron Goldfein  wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Sean Hunt  wrote:
>>
>> at OscarMeyr became
>> > Speaker on 20 May 2009.
>
> Canada is a player, and an active one at that.

It is a person; I'm not aware of it ever becoming a player.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: intent to deputise

[Aaron Goldfein]

On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Sean Hunt  wrote:

> at OscarMeyr became
> > Speaker on 20 May 2009.
>

Canada is a player, and an active one at that.

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [CotC] CFJs 2541-42 assigned to Rodlen

[comex]

On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 12:53 AM, Sean Hunt  wrote:
> Rodlen wrote:
>> I judge CFJ 2541 FALSE and CFJ 2542 TRUE.  In the first case, Quazie
>> attempted to announce that the rule repealed itself without causing it
>> to repeal itself.  In the second case, e did cause it to repeal itself.
>> Players had to specifically cause it to repeal itself, not just announce
>> that it repealed itself.
>>
>> --
>> --Rodlen
> I intend, with 2 support, to appeal this judgment. Rule 105 prevents
> Rule Changes from happening other than an instrument taking effect;
> Quazie saying e causes a rule to repeal itself is hardly part of that
> rule's effect.
>
> Furthermore, R101(iv) prevents a Rule Change that was not subject to
> public review.

Note that the Rule contained this text:

  Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, any Notice of Violation
  alleging a rule violation prior to the adoption of this rule is
  invalid.  If this rule has existed for at least 90 days, then
  any player CAN (by announcement) cause it to repeal itself.

Considering that the mechanism of repeal was approved through public
vote, I'd hardly consider it not subject to public review.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: intent to deputise

[Sean Hunt]

Sean Hunt wrote:
> Geoffrey Spear wrote:
>> I intend to deputise for the Herald to announce that OscarMeyr became
>> Speaker on 20 May 2009.
> Oscar, or anyone deputizing if Oscar fails to do so: I believe the
> current MWoPs are myself, ais523, root, yourself, and Wooble. Note that
> Canada being awarded MWoP will not change this; it will subsequently
> lose the title due to not being a player.
Correction: root will lose it, not Canada. OscarMeyr will still remain
Speaker.

DIS: Re: BUS: intent to deputise

[Sean Hunt]

Geoffrey Spear wrote:
> I intend to deputise for the Herald to announce that OscarMeyr became
> Speaker on 20 May 2009.
Oscar, or anyone deputizing if Oscar fails to do so: I believe the
current MWoPs are myself, ais523, root, yourself, and Wooble. Note that
Canada being awarded MWoP will not change this; it will subsequently
lose the title due to not being a player.

DIS: Re: BUS: Senators

[Benjamin Caplan]

Charles Walker wrote:
> (3) Any player CAN become a Senator without objection.

Sneaky things happen Without Objection sometimes.

Re: BUS: Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Ambassador] Foreign Relations

[Benjamin Caplan]

Alex Smith wrote:
> I intend, with Agoran Consent, to cause Agora to vote FOR the InterNomic
> II proposal to make it into an Agoran protectorate, which can be found
> at .

I support.

Pavitra



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: BUS: Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Ambassador] Foreign Relations

[Elliott Hird]

2009/5/30 Alex Smith :
> Why not filter based on subject-line? That's what I do.

Matches: to:(agora-busin...@agoranomic.org)
Do this: Skip Inbox, Apply label "Agora"

Matches: to:(agora-offic...@agoranomic.org)
Do this: Skip Inbox, Apply label "Agora"

Matches: to:(agora-discussion@agoranomic.org)
Do this: Skip Inbox, Apply label "Agora"

Matches: to:(no...@yoyo.its.monash.edu.au)
Do this: Skip Inbox, Apply label "Agora"

Matches: to:(ag...@listserver.tue.nl)
Do this: Skip Inbox, Apply label "Agora"

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: zeckalpha is to be registered.

[Elliott Hird]

2009/5/30 Alex Smith :
> I take it that Kyle Marek-Spartz /is/ zeckalpha? That attempted
> registration would almost certainly fail if zeckalpha was someone else.
> (Unless there was a submarine act-on-behalf contract, which would get us
> into even more confusing realms of rule weirdness...)

"zeckal...@gmail.com"

yes

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [CotC] CFJ 2524a assigned to G., Rodlen, ehird

[Elliott Hird]

2009/5/30 Rodlen :
>
>
> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Elliott Hird
>  wrote:
>>
>> 2009/5/29 Ed Murphy :
>> > Detail: http://zenith.homelinux.net/cotc/viewcase.php?cfj=2524a
>>
>> Trivial OVERRULE/{}.
>
> OVERRULE.
>
> --
> --Rodlen
>

Uh. With?

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [CotC] CFJ 2545 assigned to coppro

[Alex Smith]

On Sat, 2009-05-30 at 09:18 -0600, Roger Hicks wrote:
> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 23:05, Sean Hunt  wrote:
> > Aaron Goldfein wrote:
> >> I appeal this judgment.
> >
> > Since I spent a Note to remove one of your Rests in the belief that 3
> > Rests was excessive, I would ask that, if the judgment is overruled,
> > remanded, or reassigned, you repay me in some manner.
> >
> > I have no way of enforcing this, but I will note if you do not.
> >
> If the judgment is overruled or re-assigned then it was never valid,
> which means the rests were never created, and therefore your spending
> notes to destroy one was invalid.
> 
Err, no. You can't retroactively prevent a judgement having happened.

Instead, the appeals panel has to destroy the rests by announcement;
which might be problematic, given that they no longer all exist. (Rule
1504; incidentally, {Wooble, Rodlen, Tiger} have failed for over a week
to meet this SHALL, but the rule forgets to specify a time limit. I
wonder what recourse I have in this case? Probably, a proposal to fix
the rule; I'll do that.)

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [CotC] CFJ 2545 assigned to coppro

[Roger Hicks]

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 23:05, Sean Hunt  wrote:
> Aaron Goldfein wrote:
>> I appeal this judgment.
>
> Since I spent a Note to remove one of your Rests in the belief that 3
> Rests was excessive, I would ask that, if the judgment is overruled,
> remanded, or reassigned, you repay me in some manner.
>
> I have no way of enforcing this, but I will note if you do not.
>
If the judgment is overruled or re-assigned then it was never valid,
which means the rests were never created, and therefore your spending
notes to destroy one was invalid.

BobTHJ

DIS: A Reminder to G.

[Aaron Goldfein]

The Accountor's monthly report has not yet been submitted for the month of
May, and you don't have very much time left.

DIS: Re: OFF: [Ambassador] Foreign Relations

[Charles Walker]

On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:

> [NOTE: In order to aid other officers who need to know whether
> Ambassador duties have been done or not, I'm now adding them to the
> history of this report.]
>
> Foreign relations


No matter what I do, this report /always/ flips every nomic-related filter I
have in my gmail. In other news, I've proposed InterNomic becomes a
protectorate of Agora. We have a week to vote and it needs an 80% majority
to pass. Currently Nomicide and the xkcd forum nomic are the only other
members, although I may make B join at some point.

--
C-walker, who clearly intends this message to be public.

DIS: Re: OFF: [Ambassador] Foreign Relations

[Alex Smith]

On Sat, 2009-05-30 at 15:28 +0100, Alex Smith wrote:
>  time of last report 
>  time of this report 
> Tue 28 Apr 2009 07:22 - CFJ 2463 finds that Einos is no longer a
> protectorate
> Sat 09 May 2009 12:26 - Recognition of Internomic II flipped to Neutral
> Sat 09 May 2009 12:26 - Recognition of Fresh Nomic flipped to Neutral
> Sat 09 May 2009 12:26 - Internomic II joined
> Sat 09 May 2009 12:26 - Internomic II informed (by coincidence; their
> Administrator was subscribed to the Agoran
> mailing lists; I informed myself shortly after,
> though)
> Wed 13 May 2009 18:54 - Fresh Nomic informed (via private email)
> Thu 28 May 2009 01:50 - Attempt to flip Fresh Nomic to Abandoned is
> objected to

Whoops, I put the "this report" marker in the wrong place (it should be
at the bottom). The history isn't an official part of the report,
though.

-- 
ais523

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: zeckalpha is to be registered.

[Alex Smith]

On Sat, 2009-05-30 at 08:55 -0400, Geoffrey Spear wrote:
> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 2:31 AM, Kyle Marek-Spartz  
> wrote:
> > zeckalpha is to be registered.
> 
> Welcome, maybe.
> 
> I CFJ on: {{zeckalpha is a Player.}}
> 
> Evidence: above-quoted grammatically-problematic message.

I take it that Kyle Marek-Spartz /is/ zeckalpha? That attempted
registration would almost certainly fail if zeckalpha was someone else.
(Unless there was a submarine act-on-behalf contract, which would get us
into even more confusing realms of rule weirdness...)

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: recently unalienated, perhaps misunderstanding rules...

[Alex Smith]

On Sat, 2009-05-30 at 01:37 -0500, Kyle Marek-Spartz wrote:
> Rule 2150/6 seems contradictory
> Personhood
> 
>  A person is an entity defined as such by rules with power of at
>  least 2.  A person CAN generally be the subject of rights and
>  obligations under the rules.
> 
>  Any biological organism that is generally capable of
>  communicating by email in English (including via a translation
>  service) is a person.
> 
>  A first-class person is a person of a biological nature.  All
>  other persons are second-class.
> 
>  The basis of a first-class person is the singleton set
>  consisting of that person.
> 
> In my understanding of it, because it says "Any biological organism
> ... is a person." and goes on to say "A first-class person is a person
> of a biological nature.  All other persons are second-class." there
> can be no second class persons.

Biological organisms that can communicate by email in English are
persons. Other entities might also be persons; but only if a rule with a
power of at least 2 says they are. (In particular, certain partnerships
and the country of Canada are.)

-- 
ais523

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: zeckalpha is to be registered.

[Charles Walker]

On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 7:31 AM, Kyle Marek-Spartz wrote:

> zeckalpha is to be registered.
>

Welcome. You may find the following useful if you've never played before:
[ With thanks to Murphy ]

Agora Nomic FAQ
last updated 4/22/09


Q.  What's with the funny pronouns?
A.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun (Agora traditionally
   uses "e" as subject and "emself" as reflexive).

Q.  What is Power?
A.  Power is a number that restricts how rules, proposals, and other
   entities can affect the gamestate.  Rules with higher Power have
   higher precedence (Rule 1482) and are harder to amend (Rule 2140).

Q.  What is Adoption Index?  Which one should I use?
A.  When submitting a proposal, you should specify an Adoption Index
   at least as high as the highest-Power rule you plan to amend,
   otherwise some amendments will fail even if the proposal is
   adopted (Rules 106, 2140).  A higher Adoption Index requires a
   higher ratio of votes in favor (Rule 955); basically, AI=1 requires
   50% + 1, AI=2 requires a 2/3 majority, AI=3 requires a 3/4 majority.

Q.  Do the rules get reset when someone wins?
A.  No, but each method of winning is generally accompanied by a
   cleanup procedure (Rule 2186) that resets the relevant part of the
   gamestate, e.g. winning by High Score resets scores.

Q.  Why does Rule 104 (First Speaker) still exist?
A.  It's the only initial rule that's never been amended.  Some of us
   want to keep it that way.

Q.  What's the best way to get up to speed on the rules?
A.  The Full Logical Ruleset (Rule 1681) includes cross-references
   and notes on interpretation.

Q.  What's with lots of titles ending in "-or" instead of "-er"?
A.  Historical precedent, dating back to at least "Rulekeepor" in
   Rule 399/1 (now 1051/18; amended rules used to be renumbered).

Q.  What does "Cantus Cygneus" mean?
A.  Latin for "swan song".  Probably grammatically incorrect.

Q.  What's the Senate for?
A.  A line of defense in case some large group of trolls ever decides
   "hur hur, we can ruin this game because we outnumber the existing
   players".  If the trolls appear patient enough to wait two months,
   then we have time to erect stronger defenses.

Q.  Why is the recordkeepor of Rests called the Insulator?
A.  Mixed metaphor.  The recordkeepor of Notes is called the Conductor.

Q.  What's with the words in all caps?
A.  See Rule 2152, which was explicitly based on RFC 2119.

Q.  How long is "as soon as possible" / "in a timely fashion"?
A.  One week (Rule 1023).

Q.  How are weeks defined?
A.  Absolute weeks (e.g. "at least once a week", "during the same week")
   begin at midnight UTC on Monday (Rule 1023).  Relative durations
   (e.g. "within one week after") are measured relatively.

Q.  How should trivial corrections be made?
A.  Without objection (Rule 2221) or via disinterested proposal (Rules
   2153, 2224).

Q.  What's an index?
A.  A real number or +inf ("unanimity") or -inf (Rule 2146).

Q.  What's a switch?
A.  A single-value attribute relevant to a specified type of entity,
   with a default setting (Rule 2162).

Q.  Why do replies go to the discussion list?
A.  Because most replies are discussionary in nature.  If you send an
   attempted action to the discussion list by mistake, just forward
   it to the business list and add "TTttPF" ("this time to the Public
   Forum").

Q.  Why are lots of things performed "by announcement"?
A.  Agora has long rejected the interpretation that any action can
   implicitly be performed by saying so ("I say I do, therefore I
   do").  Defining and using "by announcement" (Rule 478) makes it
   explicit.

Q.  What are the time limits for actions with support or without
   objections?
A.  The action must be performed within fourteen days of announcing
   intent.  If the action depends on objections, then there's a
   minimum four-day wait.  (Rule 1728)

Q.  What is Agoran Consent?
A.  Basically "with more support than objections".  Specifying a number
   may increase the difficulty.  (Rule 1728)

Q.  What are fungible assets?
A.  Interchangeable, indistinguishable.  One typically says "you owe me
   a dollar", not "you owe me the dollar with a particular serial
   number".  (Rule 2166)

Q.  What happens if a player leaves the game while holding an office?
A.  Only players can hold office (Rule 1006), so the office becomes
   vacant.

Q.  What is deputisation?
A.  A method for any player to perform a duty of an office because the
   officer is slacking off but hasn't been replaced yet, or the office
   is vacant (Rule 2160).

Q.  What's the schedule for elections to office?
A.  Elections occur whenever someone initiates one (Rule 2154); this is
   only required of the IADoP when the office is vacant or its holder
   is inactive (Rule 2217).  Nominations last for four days, then the
   IADoP initiates voting if needed (Rule 2154) which lasts for seven
   days (Rule 107).

Q.  Do I have to accept or decline if I'm nominated?  Can I change my

Re: DIS: recently unalienated, perhaps misunderstanding rules...

[Kerim Aydin]

On Sat, 30 May 2009, Kyle Marek-Spartz wrote:
> In my understanding of it, because it says "Any biological organism
> ... is a person." and goes on to say "A first-class person is a person
> of a biological nature.  All other persons are second-class." there
> can be no second class persons.

"Any biological organism...is a person" doesn't mean that all non-
biological organisms are non-persons.  This leaves it open for other
rules to define non-biological persons with the caveat that, not being 
biological, they would be considered second-class.  Does that make 
sense?

There didn't used to be a strict definition of person in the ruleset, 
instead assuming that "common definitions" of persons would lead us to 
only count biological sentient beings.  But a court case pointed out 
that in many legal contexts partnerships or other multi-person groups 
fit the legal definition of persons and by R754(c), legal definitions
may be sometimes used over "common" definitions", and this led to 
groups of players registering as distinct "persons" until we came up 
with the "second-class" distinction.

-G.

---
 Gravity Circumference Line Deja Vu Cardboard Duck e^(-kt)