DIS: Re: BUS: proposal
On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 12:07 PM, omd wrote: > Proposal: I have no idea what I was thinking with the original proposal > > Amend Rule 2352 (The Ambassador) by appending: > > The Ambassador CAN act on behalf of Agora with Agoran Consent; > such actions SHOULD be consistent with Agora's wishes. Gratuitous: perhaps we should instead let other nomics decide which actions they want to recognize as being performed by Agora. In the proto-nomic OmNom, acting on behalf is only allowed when the rules of OmNom allow it, so this amendment to Rule 2352 would have no effect. However, OmNom's rules do say, "Agora Nomic's Ambassador is allowed to act on behalf of Agora Nomic" (and have since before Rule 2352 was proposed). Of course, OmNom could have easily instead said, "The legality of acting on behalf of Agora Nomic is determined by the rules of Agora Nomic as if they were a pragmatic report", and likewise, any nomic could defer to Agora in determining who can act on Agora's behalf. —Tanner L. Swett
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Impossible job is impossible
On 08/12/2011 05:38 AM, ais523 wrote: > On Thu, 2011-08-11 at 19:48 +0200, Jonatan Kilhamn wrote: >> On 11 August 2011 19:06, Geoffrey Spear wrote: >>> I initiate a criminal CFJ alleging that Tiger violated the power-1 >>> Rule 2352 by failing to attempt to cause Agora to become a player of >>> BlogNomic as soon as possible after e became Ambassador. >>> >>> Unfortunately, it's beyond the scope of this case to determine what >>> would actually qualify as attempting to do this duty, since the >>> unsuccessful attempt e did make happened more than 4 days after e was >>> installed. >>> >> I plead guilty, though I realise that I have not read the ruleset >> sufficiently or I would definitely have objected to the intent to set >> the speed to fast. I was away for seven days, and when I left the >> election had not even started; I believed it would actually include a >> voting period and thus didn't expect to have been installed when I >> returned. Still, all faults of mine. > > I'm pretty sure that the only way to fulfil your obligation is to amend > BlogNomic's ruleset to allow other nomics to play it, and also amend > Agora's ruleset to allow it to play other nomics (such as, for instance, > by allowing the Ambassador to make nomic-gameplay-related decisions on > its behalf). R2353 says "attempt to cause Agora to become a player of BlogNomic". I think that the obligation can be discharged by an unsuccessful good faith best effort.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Impossible job is impossible
On 12 August 2011 16:08, Geoffrey Spear wrote: > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 6:48 AM, Jonatan Kilhamn > wrote: >> Doesn't the ordinary-language definitions of "affairs of state (of >> Agora)" and "ambassador" mean anything? When a rule says that >> something completely undefined (Agora playing another nomic) is to >> happen, and introduces the notion of nomics being like states, then >> I'd say this is like saying a country doesn't have diplomatic >> relations to another when their ambassadors are clearly talking and >> making deals. > > Do you think the U.S. Ambassador to Canada can act on his own to cause > the U.S. to get Canadian citizenship? > Hmm, no. That's where it breaks down. I'm not saying this is going to salvage the argument, but the main difference: being a citizen of a country, and playing a nomic, are alike but not nearly the same thing. Especially when it comes to internet nomics in general, and Agora in particular. Playing simply means (not as defined by the rules, but in practice) taking the actions that are associated with playing the nomic. With the U.S. example, no-one could ever become a citizen on behalf of someone else, that's just odd, but playing a nomic on behalf of someone else is doable albeit a bit pointless. Nah, I don't know where I'm getting with this. I definitely agree that the current rulesets of Agora and BlogNomic don't allow for Agora to play, while the ruleset of Agora requires me to cause Agora to play. Is there a rule about impossible obligations? /Tiger
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Impossible job is impossible
On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 6:48 AM, Jonatan Kilhamn wrote: > Doesn't the ordinary-language definitions of "affairs of state (of > Agora)" and "ambassador" mean anything? When a rule says that > something completely undefined (Agora playing another nomic) is to > happen, and introduces the notion of nomics being like states, then > I'd say this is like saying a country doesn't have diplomatic > relations to another when their ambassadors are clearly talking and > making deals. Do you think the U.S. Ambassador to Canada can act on his own to cause the U.S. to get Canadian citizenship?
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Impossible job is impossible
On 12 August 2011 12:48, Jonatan Kilhamn wrote: > On 12 August 2011 12:38, ais523 wrote: >> On Thu, 2011-08-11 at 19:48 +0200, Jonatan Kilhamn wrote: >>> On 11 August 2011 19:06, Geoffrey Spear wrote: >>> > I initiate a criminal CFJ alleging that Tiger violated the power-1 >>> > Rule 2352 by failing to attempt to cause Agora to become a player of >>> > BlogNomic as soon as possible after e became Ambassador. >>> > >>> > Unfortunately, it's beyond the scope of this case to determine what >>> > would actually qualify as attempting to do this duty, since the >>> > unsuccessful attempt e did make happened more than 4 days after e was >>> > installed. >>> > >>> I plead guilty, though I realise that I have not read the ruleset >>> sufficiently or I would definitely have objected to the intent to set >>> the speed to fast. I was away for seven days, and when I left the >>> election had not even started; I believed it would actually include a >>> voting period and thus didn't expect to have been installed when I >>> returned. Still, all faults of mine. >> >> I'm pretty sure that the only way to fulfil your obligation is to amend >> BlogNomic's ruleset to allow other nomics to play it, and also amend >> Agora's ruleset to allow it to play other nomics (such as, for instance, >> by allowing the Ambassador to make nomic-gameplay-related decisions on >> its behalf). >> > Doesn't the ordinary-language definitions of "affairs of state (of > Agora)" and "ambassador" mean anything? When a rule says that > something completely undefined (Agora playing another nomic) is to > happen, and introduces the notion of nomics being like states, then > I'd say this is like saying a country doesn't have diplomatic > relations to another when their ambassadors are clearly talking and > making deals. > But then again, I realise, Agora Nomic is clearly intended to be a person and can make its own decisions. It might be impossible after all.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Impossible job is impossible
On 12 August 2011 12:38, ais523 wrote: > On Thu, 2011-08-11 at 19:48 +0200, Jonatan Kilhamn wrote: >> On 11 August 2011 19:06, Geoffrey Spear wrote: >> > I initiate a criminal CFJ alleging that Tiger violated the power-1 >> > Rule 2352 by failing to attempt to cause Agora to become a player of >> > BlogNomic as soon as possible after e became Ambassador. >> > >> > Unfortunately, it's beyond the scope of this case to determine what >> > would actually qualify as attempting to do this duty, since the >> > unsuccessful attempt e did make happened more than 4 days after e was >> > installed. >> > >> I plead guilty, though I realise that I have not read the ruleset >> sufficiently or I would definitely have objected to the intent to set >> the speed to fast. I was away for seven days, and when I left the >> election had not even started; I believed it would actually include a >> voting period and thus didn't expect to have been installed when I >> returned. Still, all faults of mine. > > I'm pretty sure that the only way to fulfil your obligation is to amend > BlogNomic's ruleset to allow other nomics to play it, and also amend > Agora's ruleset to allow it to play other nomics (such as, for instance, > by allowing the Ambassador to make nomic-gameplay-related decisions on > its behalf). > Doesn't the ordinary-language definitions of "affairs of state (of Agora)" and "ambassador" mean anything? When a rule says that something completely undefined (Agora playing another nomic) is to happen, and introduces the notion of nomics being like states, then I'd say this is like saying a country doesn't have diplomatic relations to another when their ambassadors are clearly talking and making deals.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Impossible job is impossible
On Thu, 2011-08-11 at 19:48 +0200, Jonatan Kilhamn wrote: > On 11 August 2011 19:06, Geoffrey Spear wrote: > > I initiate a criminal CFJ alleging that Tiger violated the power-1 > > Rule 2352 by failing to attempt to cause Agora to become a player of > > BlogNomic as soon as possible after e became Ambassador. > > > > Unfortunately, it's beyond the scope of this case to determine what > > would actually qualify as attempting to do this duty, since the > > unsuccessful attempt e did make happened more than 4 days after e was > > installed. > > > I plead guilty, though I realise that I have not read the ruleset > sufficiently or I would definitely have objected to the intent to set > the speed to fast. I was away for seven days, and when I left the > election had not even started; I believed it would actually include a > voting period and thus didn't expect to have been installed when I > returned. Still, all faults of mine. I'm pretty sure that the only way to fulfil your obligation is to amend BlogNomic's ruleset to allow other nomics to play it, and also amend Agora's ruleset to allow it to play other nomics (such as, for instance, by allowing the Ambassador to make nomic-gameplay-related decisions on its behalf). -- ais523
