Re: DIS: [Proto] Vexity (was Re: humble agoran farmer attempts a stick-up.)

2017-07-23 Thread Kerim Aydin 


On Mon, 24 Jul 2017, Alex Smith wrote:
> On Sun, 2017-07-23 at 17:07 -0500, Nic Evans wrote:
> > I've been wondering about this in the context of the economy
> > overhaul: 
> > In it *players* need to use shinies or AP to initiate CFJs, but 
> > *persons* can do it for free if they aren't a player. Does that pass 
> > R217's bar [1]?
> 
> We've already found in CFJ 2679 that if the rules ensure a mechanism to
> do something exists, it doesn't matter what that mechanism is; in
> particular, deregistering can be part of it.
> 
> Thus, the fact that it's always possible to deregister in order to file
> a CFJ (in your overhaul) meets rule 217's requirement.
> 
> (A possible issue with this reasoning: if a vexatious litigant
> deregistered to get around CFJ limits, and then was barred from the
> fora via technical means.)

The mechanism in question in CFJ 2679 did not have the strong 
protections in the rules that judgement has.  On case law for judgement
initiation, CFJ 1627 and CFJ 2060 are the most relevant.

What hasn't been covered in any precedent to my knowledge is the 
following.  You CANNOT "prevent" a person from being able to initiate
judgement (by CFJ 2060, any process delays such as dismissals for Excess
must be limited in scope).  If you set up conditions for invoking
judgement that are so chilling that it effectively ruins a person's
standing in the game, in a "legal rights" sense you are preventing that
person from exercising that right, even if you are not doing so in a
"logical" sense.

But I think a change to R217 should be included in your overhaul.  The
problem is the mechanism of protection in R217 relies on preventing 
rule changes that stop judgement invokation, but not other changes in 
the game state.  For example, if a rule change said "everyone gets 5
judgement tokens to initiate judgement.  Once the tokens are gone, 
they're gone forever."  The rule change wouldn't prevent people from
calling for judgement, it's only later play that would do so.  So,
when is that blocked, or is it?

A final note is that as long as the Proposal system is protected, 
arguably, you can always initiate a procedure for "controversy 
resolution" via a proposal!  (although this only works for Players
of course).

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 7867-7868 (attn. Assessor)

2017-07-23 Thread Aris Merchant 
On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 5:53 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> On Sun, 2017-07-23 at 17:46 -0700, Aris Merchant wrote:
>> On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 12:41 PM, Aris Merchant
>>  wrote:
>> > I hereby distribute each listed proposal, initiating the Agoran
>> > Decision of whether to adopt it, and removing it from the proposal
>> > pool. For this decision, the vote collector is the Assessor, the
>> > quorum is 3.0 and the valid options are FOR and AGAINST (PRESENT is
>> > also a valid vote).
>>
>> Administrative note: due to the past amending properties of self
>> ratification, I believe the quorum of these decisions is now 2.0.
>> Honorable assessor, you may want to familiarize yourself with the new
>> quorum rules. I believe your assessment of Proposal 7866 was
>> technically incorrect, as the decision had a quorum of 5.0. I didn't
>> complain because the lack of votes was a result of my incorrect
>> distribution, and the whole mess was thus really my fault. :)
>
> IIRC, quorum doesn't self-ratify. (See rule 879.)
>
> Voting results, on the other hand, do self-ratify, but the gamestate
> change created by the self-ratification is to apply the results of the
> proposal, not to change the reason why it passed/failed.
>
> --
> ais523

Rule 879 says "If no other rule defines the quorum of an Agoran
Decision, the quorum for that decision is equal to the number of
players who voted on the Agoran Decision to adopt a proposal that had
been most recently resolved at the time of that decision's initiation,
minus 2." The proposal would correctly have been resolved as failed
quorum, but it was't. As I understand it, the resolution was
platonically invalid unit it self-ratified. The quorum was 3.0
yesterday because of the valid resolution of proposal 7865, which had
five votes, but now the resolution of 7866 has become valid, so I
think that set quorum at 2.0 a week ago for the purposes of the
gamestate today.

-Aris

DIS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 7867-7868 (attn. Assessor)

2017-07-23 Thread Alex Smith 
On Sun, 2017-07-23 at 17:46 -0700, Aris Merchant wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 12:41 PM, Aris Merchant
>  wrote:
> > I hereby distribute each listed proposal, initiating the Agoran
> > Decision of whether to adopt it, and removing it from the proposal
> > pool. For this decision, the vote collector is the Assessor, the
> > quorum is 3.0 and the valid options are FOR and AGAINST (PRESENT is
> > also a valid vote).
> 
> Administrative note: due to the past amending properties of self
> ratification, I believe the quorum of these decisions is now 2.0.
> Honorable assessor, you may want to familiarize yourself with the new
> quorum rules. I believe your assessment of Proposal 7866 was
> technically incorrect, as the decision had a quorum of 5.0. I didn't
> complain because the lack of votes was a result of my incorrect
> distribution, and the whole mess was thus really my fault. :)

IIRC, quorum doesn't self-ratify. (See rule 879.)

Voting results, on the other hand, do self-ratify, but the gamestate
change created by the self-ratification is to apply the results of the
proposal, not to change the reason why it passed/failed.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: [Proto] Vexity (was Re: humble agoran farmer attempts a stick-up.)

2017-07-23 Thread Alex Smith 
On Sun, 2017-07-23 at 17:07 -0500, Nic Evans wrote:
> I've been wondering about this in the context of the economy
> overhaul: 
> In it *players* need to use shinies or AP to initiate CFJs, but 
> *persons* can do it for free if they aren't a player. Does that pass 
> R217's bar [1]?

We've already found in CFJ 2679 that if the rules ensure a mechanism to
do something exists, it doesn't matter what that mechanism is; in
particular, deregistering can be part of it.

Thus, the fact that it's always possible to deregister in order to file
a CFJ (in your overhaul) meets rule 217's requirement.

(A possible issue with this reasoning: if a vexatious litigant
deregistered to get around CFJ limits, and then was barred from the
fora via technical means.)

-- 
ais523

DIS: Re: BUS: [Registrar] Weekly Report

2017-07-23 Thread Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
Accepted.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jul 23, 2017, at 8:33 PM, Josh T  wrote:
> 
> TTttPF
> 
> On 23 July 2017 at 20:32, Josh T  wrote:
> CoE: Bayushi is a player (e owns Shinies)
> 
> 天火狐
> 
> On 23 July 2017 at 16:10, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>  wrote:
> Accepted.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> > On Jul 23, 2017, at 3:20 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> >
> > CoE: I, nichdel, am a player.
> >
> > On 07/23/2017 01:31 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> >> 
> >>Registrar's Weekly Report
> >> 
> >>
> >> (all times UTC)
> >>
> >> Date of last report: 02 Jul 2017
> >> Date of this report:
> >>
> >> Recent events:
> >>
> >>
> >> Players (16) (Rule 869, self-ratifying)
> >>
> >> Player   Contact Registered
> >> --   --- --
> >> ais523   callforjudgement at yahoo.co.uk [1] 20 Mar 11
> >> Aris thoughtsoflifeandlight17 at gmail.com   13 Sep 16
> >> Murphy   emurphy42 at zoho.com   27 Oct 07
> >> oowen at grimoire.ca 12 Jul 16
> >> Sprocklemsprocklem at gmail.com  19 Oct 13
> >> 天火狐draconicdarkness at gmail.com   06 Nov 16
> >> Zachary Watterson [2]tannerswett at gmail.com26 Mar 17
> >> Quazie   quazienomic at gmail.com15 Apr 17
> >> P. Scholasticus [3]  pscriboniusscholasticus at gmail.com[4] 16 Apr 17
> >> tmanthe2nd   trstnbrdwg0 at gmail.com13 May 17
> >> Gaelan   gbs at canishe.com  15 May 17
> >> Ienpw IIIjames.m.beirne at gmail.com 21 May 17
> >> Veggiekeks   martinjroensch at gmail.com 25 May 17
> >> omd  comexk at gmail.com [5] 03 Feb 11
> >> V.J. Radavijar...@gmail.com  07 Jun 17
> >>
> >>
> >> [1] also ais523 at alumni.bham.ac.uk
> >> [2] also known as Gumball
> >> [3] In full, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >> [4] officially, but technically equivalent p.scribonius.scholasticus at 
> >> googlemail.com
> >> [5] officially, but technically equivalent c.ome.xk at gmail.com
> >>
> >> Fora (Rule 478, self-ratifying)
> >>
> >> Type Location  Typical use
> >>   ---
> >> Public   agora-official at agoranomic.org  official reports
> >> Public   agora-business at agoranomic.org  other business
> >> Discussion   agora-discussion at agoranomic.orgdiscussion
> >> Discussion   irc://irc.freenode.net:6667/##nomic   discussion
> >> Public   agora at listserver.tue.nlbackup
> >>
> >> Subscribe or unsubscribe from main lists:
> >> http://www.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo
> >>
> >> Subscribe or unsubscribe from tue.nl backup list:
> >> http://listserver.tue.nl/mailman/listinfo/agora
> >>
> >> The IRC channel does not require subscription; set your IRC client to
> >> server irc.freenode.net, port 6667, channel ##nomic, and whatever
> >> nickname you like.
> >>
> >> Other rules pertaining to this office
> >> -
> >> Rule 2139 (The Registrar)
> >> Rule 1789 (Cantus Cygneus)
> >>
> >> Watchers (4)
> >>
> >> The list of Watchers is not governed by the rules, but is
> >> traditionally maintained in the Registrar's Report.  If you'd like to
> >> be listed as a Watcher or removed from the list, feel free to email
> >> the fora or the Registrar directly.
> >>
> >> Watchers confirmed as of May 2017:
> >>
> >> Nickname  Contact
> >>   ---
> >> Ørjan oerjan at nvg.ntnu.no
> >>
> >> Watchers confirmed as of May 2013:
> >>
> >> Nickname  Contact
> >>   ---
> >> Dave  davidnicol at gmail.com
> >> Phlogistique  noe.rubinstein at gmail.com
> >> Steve zardoz37 at gmail.com
> >>
> >> 
> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> 
> 
> 



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DIS: Re: BUS: [Registrar] Weekly Report

2017-07-23 Thread Josh T 
CoE: Bayushi is a player (e owns Shinies)

天火狐

On 23 July 2017 at 16:10, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Accepted.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> > On Jul 23, 2017, at 3:20 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> >
> > CoE: I, nichdel, am a player.
> >
> > On 07/23/2017 01:31 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> >> 
> 
> >>Registrar's Weekly Report
> >> 
> 
> >>
> >> (all times UTC)
> >>
> >> Date of last report: 02 Jul 2017
> >> Date of this report:
> >>
> >> Recent events:
> >>
> >>
> >> Players (16) (Rule 869, self-ratifying)
> >>
> >> Player   Contact
>  Registered
> >> --   ---
>  --
> >> ais523   callforjudgement at yahoo.co.uk [1] 20
> Mar 11
> >> Aris thoughtsoflifeandlight17 at gmail.com   13
> Sep 16
> >> Murphy   emurphy42 at zoho.com   27
> Oct 07
> >> oowen at grimoire.ca 12
> Jul 16
> >> Sprocklemsprocklem at gmail.com  19
> Oct 13
> >> 天火狐draconicdarkness at gmail.com   06 Nov
> 16
> >> Zachary Watterson [2]tannerswett at gmail.com26
> Mar 17
> >> Quazie   quazienomic at gmail.com15
> Apr 17
> >> P. Scholasticus [3]  pscriboniusscholasticus at gmail.com[4] 16
> Apr 17
> >> tmanthe2nd   trstnbrdwg0 at gmail.com13
> May 17
> >> Gaelan   gbs at canishe.com  15
> May 17
> >> Ienpw IIIjames.m.beirne at gmail.com 21
> May 17
> >> Veggiekeks   martinjroensch at gmail.com 25
> May 17
> >> omd  comexk at gmail.com [5] 03
> Feb 11
> >> V.J. Radavijar...@gmail.com  07
> Jun 17
> >>
> >>
> >> [1] also ais523 at alumni.bham.ac.uk
> >> [2] also known as Gumball
> >> [3] In full, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >> [4] officially, but technically equivalent p.scribonius.scholasticus at
> googlemail.com
> >> [5] officially, but technically equivalent c.ome.xk at gmail.com
> >>
> >> Fora (Rule 478, self-ratifying)
> >>
> >> Type Location  Typical use
> >>   ---
> >> Public   agora-official at agoranomic.org  official reports
> >> Public   agora-business at agoranomic.org  other business
> >> Discussion   agora-discussion at agoranomic.orgdiscussion
> >> Discussion   irc://irc.freenode.net:6667/##nomic   discussion
> >> Public   agora at listserver.tue.nlbackup
> >>
> >> Subscribe or unsubscribe from main lists:
> >> http://www.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo
> >>
> >> Subscribe or unsubscribe from tue.nl backup list:
> >> http://listserver.tue.nl/mailman/listinfo/agora
> >>
> >> The IRC channel does not require subscription; set your IRC client
> to
> >> server irc.freenode.net, port 6667, channel ##nomic, and whatever
> >> nickname you like.
> >>
> >> Other rules pertaining to this office
> >> -
> >> Rule 2139 (The Registrar)
> >> Rule 1789 (Cantus Cygneus)
> >>
> >> Watchers (4)
> >>
> >> The list of Watchers is not governed by the rules, but is
> >> traditionally maintained in the Registrar's Report.  If you'd like
> to
> >> be listed as a Watcher or removed from the list, feel free to email
> >> the fora or the Registrar directly.
> >>
> >> Watchers confirmed as of May 2017:
> >>
> >> Nickname  Contact
> >>   ---
> >> Ørjan oerjan at nvg.ntnu.no
> >>
> >> Watchers confirmed as of May 2013:
> >>
> >> Nickname  Contact
> >>   ---
> >> Dave  davidnicol at gmail.com
> >> Phlogistique  noe.rubinstein at gmail.com
> >> Steve zardoz37 at gmail.com
> >>
> >> 
> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>

Re: DIS: [Proto] Vexity (was Re: humble agoran farmer attempts a stick-up.)

2017-07-23 Thread Nic Evans 

On 07/18/2017 09:58 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote:


On Tue, 18 Jul 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:

 A person whose Vexity is zero may initiate a Call for Judgement by
 announcement. A person whose Vexity is not zero may initiate a Call
 for Judgement with N Agoran Support, where N is the value of that
 person's Vexity switch.

The fact that there are circumstances in which a person CANNOT initiate
a CFJ on eir own is pretty clearly a violation of R217, IMO.  It's a
direct Rules to the Contrary Notwithstanding requirement that a person
be able to do this.

Initiate to later have dismissed?  Fine.  Not able to initiate without
another player's intervention?  Not fine I would guess.



I've been wondering about this in the context of the economy overhaul: 
In it *players* need to use shinies or AP to initiate CFJs, but 
*persons* can do it for free if they aren't a player. Does that pass 
R217's bar [1]?


[1] "Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, any rule 
 change that would (1) prevent 
a person  from initiating a 
formal process to resolve matters of controversy, in the reasonable 
expectation that the controversy will thereby be resolved; or (2) 
prevent a person from causing formal reconsideration of any judicial 
determination that e should be punished, is wholly void and without 
effect."

DIS: Re: BUS: [Superintendent] Weekly Report

2017-07-23 Thread Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
Denied, nothing caused it to cease to exist.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jul 23, 2017, at 3:23 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> 
> On 07/23/2017 01:33 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>> Superintendent's Weekly Report
>> 
>> Short List of agencies:
>> 
>> ASC - Head: Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> BÖÖ - Head: Quazie
>> C♥️N - Head: CuddleBeam
>> C♥️U - Head: CuddleBeam
>> GII - Head: Gaelan
>> GOD - Head: Quazie
>> MKD - Head: Gaelan
>> PRN - Head: Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> SSP - Head: Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> WTQ - Head: Quazie
>> gFP - Head: grok
>> 𒌑შए - Head: 天火狐
>> 
>> New or changed agencies since last weekly:
>> 
>>   There are none.
>> 
>> A History of agency related events:
>> 
>> 2017-06-05 - Superintendent's Weekly Report Published
>> 2017-06-05 - Quazie establishes BÖÖ
>> 2017-06-04 - Publius Scribonius Scholasticus establishes ASC
>> 2017-05-27 - Gaelan establishes GII
>> 2017-05-27 - CuddleBeam establishes C♥️U
>> 2017-05-27 - CuddleBeam establishes C♥️N
>> 2017-05-27 - CuddleBeam revokes BGW
>> 2017-05-27 - CuddleBeam revokes ACP
>> 2017-05-25 - Superintendent's Weekly Report Published
>> 2017-05-24 - grok establishes gFP
>> 2017-05-23 - 天火狐 establishes 𒌑შए
>> 2017-05-23 - Publius Scribonius Scholasticus establishes PRN
>> 2017-05-22 - Quazie establishes WTQ
>> 2017-05-22 - CuddleBeam establishes ACP
>> 2017-05-22 - CuddleBeam establishes BGW
>> 2017-05-21 - Quazie changes GOD
>> 2017-05-20 - Publius Scribonius Scholasticus establishes SSP
>> 2017-05-20 - Gaelan establishes MKD
>> 2017-05-20 - Quazie establishes GOD
>> 2017-05-18 - Superintendent's Monthly Report Published
>> 2017-05-18 - Superintendent's Weekly Report Published
>> 2017-04-23 - Aris revokes PDA
>> 2017-04-16 - Superintendent's Monthly Report Published
>> 2017-02-13 - Aris establishes PDA
>> 
>> [Note: Events and Agencies preceded by a ! are potentially invalid pending 
>> CFJ]
>> 
>> [Archive available at https://agoranomic.github.io/Superintendent/]
>> 
>> 
>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
> CoE (possibly needs to be a CFJ): C♥️N and C♥️U are not agencies because they 
> do not empower someone to act on behalf of a player (because CB is no longer 
> a player).
> 



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DIS: Re: BUS: [Superintendent] Weekly Report

2017-07-23 Thread Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
CoE denied, the intent you resolved was sent to a-d.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jul 23, 2017, at 2:45 PM, grok (caleb vines)  wrote:
> 
> CoE: gPA is an agency
> 
> On Jul 23, 2017 1:33 PM, "Publius Scribonius Scholasticus" 
>  wrote:
> 
> Superintendent's Weekly Report
> 
> Short List of agencies:
> 
> ASC - Head: Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> BÖÖ - Head: Quazie
> C♥️N - Head: CuddleBeam
> C♥️U - Head: CuddleBeam
> GII - Head: Gaelan
> GOD - Head: Quazie
> MKD - Head: Gaelan
> PRN - Head: Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> SSP - Head: Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> WTQ - Head: Quazie
> gFP - Head: grok
> 𒌑შए - Head: 天火狐
> 
> New or changed agencies since last weekly:
> 
>   There are none.
> 
> A History of agency related events:
> 
> 2017-06-05 - Superintendent's Weekly Report Published
> 2017-06-05 - Quazie establishes BÖÖ
> 2017-06-04 - Publius Scribonius Scholasticus establishes ASC
> 2017-05-27 - Gaelan establishes GII
> 2017-05-27 - CuddleBeam establishes C♥️U
> 2017-05-27 - CuddleBeam establishes C♥️N
> 2017-05-27 - CuddleBeam revokes BGW
> 2017-05-27 - CuddleBeam revokes ACP
> 2017-05-25 - Superintendent's Weekly Report Published
> 2017-05-24 - grok establishes gFP
> 2017-05-23 - 天火狐 establishes 𒌑შए
> 2017-05-23 - Publius Scribonius Scholasticus establishes PRN
> 2017-05-22 - Quazie establishes WTQ
> 2017-05-22 - CuddleBeam establishes ACP
> 2017-05-22 - CuddleBeam establishes BGW
> 2017-05-21 - Quazie changes GOD
> 2017-05-20 - Publius Scribonius Scholasticus establishes SSP
> 2017-05-20 - Gaelan establishes MKD
> 2017-05-20 - Quazie establishes GOD
> 2017-05-18 - Superintendent's Monthly Report Published
> 2017-05-18 - Superintendent's Weekly Report Published
> 2017-04-23 - Aris revokes PDA
> 2017-04-16 - Superintendent's Monthly Report Published
> 2017-02-13 - Aris establishes PDA
> 
> [Note: Events and Agencies preceded by a ! are potentially invalid pending 
> CFJ]
> 
> [Archive available at https://agoranomic.github.io/Superintendent/]
> 
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 



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