Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Arbitor] CFJ 3964 assigned to G.
On 5/30/22 21:02, secretsnail9 via agora-discussion wrote: > So it's more unclear, and potentially ambiguous, which would just make > deactivation fail. Also, that CFJ didn't address the contradiction of being > able to activate the device while it's already on. The only communication standard that must be met is for performing a by announcement action. If the rules make it ambiguous what the effects of the action are, that's a problem after the action is performed, but it doesn't prevent the performance. > >> (In terms of your earlier discussion about what "the device changes" >> does – remember that the device is a switch with two positions, so the >> logical thing to change is the switch's position.) >> > I feel like the written definition for a device change is what mucks this > up. If a device change could be "any of the above", then why should it just > be turning the device from off to on specifically when it's after an > assignment? "The devices changes from its current value to its opposite > value" is just one possible interpretation, as is "the device changes from > its current type to a different type (such as welcome device)", "the device > changes from its current title to a different title", "the device changes > from its current time window to a different time window", etc. It needs to > be more specified for anything to actually happen. Rules text doesn't need to be specific about what changes, unless a higher powered rule says otherwise. -- Jason Cobb Assessor, Rulekeepor, Stonemason
DIS: Re: BUS: [Arbitor] CFJ 3964 assigned to G.
On 5/30/22 17:23, secretsnail9 via agora-business wrote: > After the first device assignment, "the Device changes, following which > each active player gains 1 card of each type and eir grant (if any)". What > does it mean for the device to change? We actually have a definition for a > device change: > > "A Device change is any effect that falls into the above > classes." > > but this only applies when the device is on, so the device changing is > undefined at this point. The device has multiple properties that could > change, including its assigned judge, its value, and potentially other > attributes. There is nothing that specifies what is to be changed about the > device, so nothing changes. In general, the rules (or any instrument) do not need to meet *any* communication standard when specifying changes. There are specific provisions for rule changes, but general gamestate changes can be arbitrarily unclear or nonspecific. However, the most natural reading is probably that the Device itself is flipped. -- Jason Cobb Assessor, Rulekeepor, Stonemason
DIS: [Proto] Horse Racing?
Horses are indestructible assets, ownable only by players and Agora. Any horses owned by the lost and found department are immediately transferred to Agora. Alexia, Baxter, Cannon, Destructor, Fargo, Nacho, Rubert, and Sugar are each a horse. These are their names. Dollaries (singular: dollary) are a fixed currency. Hooves (singular: hoof) are a fixed currency. The Horsened is an office and the recordkeepor of dollaries, hooves, and horses. Race Position is a Horse switch with possible values of the integers from 0 (default) to 16, tracked by the Horsened. Race Place is a Horse switch with possible values of first, second, third, and none (default), tracked by the Horsened. A horse is Running if it has a Race Place of none. Otherwise, the horse is Placed. When the race starts anew, each horse's Race Position is set to 0, each horse's Race Place is set to none, all horses are transfered to Agora, all dollaries and hooves are destroyed, and each player receives 10 dollaries. -- The horses Run -- The horses Run at the start of each week, unless the horses were not motivated within the last week. When the horses run, each player gains 1 hoof, movement resolves, and then if any horses have a Race Position of 16 and a Race Place of none, those horses win the race in alphabetical order of their names. When a horse wins the race: * If no horse has a Race Place of first, the horse's Race Place is set to first. * Otherwise, if no horse has a Race Place of second, the horse's Race Place is set to second. * Otherwise, the horse's Race Place is set to third and the race ends. -- The race ends -- When the race ends: * the player that owns the horse with a Race Place of first gains 50 dollaries. * the player that owns the horse with a Race Place of second gains 30 dollaries. * the player that owns the horse with a Race Place of third gains 15 dollaries. * For each horse, each player that got both a jersey and a helmet for that horse since the last time the race started anew gains 5 dollaries. * For each horse, each player gains a number of dollaries equal to that horse's current multiplier * the number of dollaries e bet on that horse since the last time the race started anew. -- Weekly race actions -- Each player CAN take one of the following actions (weekly race actions) if they have not already taken one this week: * bet 1, 2, or 3 dollaries on a specified horse by paying a fee of 1, 2, or 3 dollaries respectively. * get a jersey for a specified horse, also specifying a horse to be added to that horse's pull, by paying 1 hoof. * get a helmet for a specified horse by paying 1 hoof. * transfer a specified horse owned by Agora to emself by paying a fee equal to the horse's cost. * increase or decrease a specified Running horse's Race Position by 1, twice, by paying 3 hooves. * take an action defined as a weekly power of a horse e owns by the rules. * gain 4 dollaries by announcement. A player CANNOT bet on a horse with a Race Position of 12 or higher unless e got a helmet for that horse since the race last started anew. A player CANNOT get a jersey for a horse e has already gotten a jersey for since the race last started anew. A player CANNOT get a helmet for a horse e has already gotten a helmet for since the race last started anew. The Horsened's weekly report includes, since the race last started anew, which horses each player has gotten helmets and jerseys for. -- Motivating horses -- Any player CAN, by announcement if no player has done so yet this week, motivate the horses, specifying a random horse (the galloper) and a random number choice of 1, 2, or 3. When movement resolves, the galloper's Race Position is increased by 1 a number of times equal to the random number choice, and then each of the galloper's pulls have their Race Position increased by 1 in alphabetical order of their names. The horsened SHALL NOT let a week go by without the horses having been motivated. Each horse has an associated non-repeating set of horses, their "pulls", tracked by the Horsened. When the race begins anew, the horse's pulls are set to the following: HORSE PULLS Alexia Nacho Baxter Fargo Cannon Alexia Destructor Baxter Fargo Alexia, Destructor Nacho Baxter, Cannon Rubert Alexia, Cannon Sugar Baxter, Destructor -- Horse Powers -- Each horse has a power which only applies to the player that owns it (the owner), and a cost (in dollaries). They are listed below. HORSE COST (dollaries) Alexia 10 Baxter 10 Cannon 8 Destructor 8 Fargo 6 Nacho 6 Rubert 4 Sugar 4 Alexia's power: Once per month, the owner CAN take a weekly race action, so long as e specifies it's via this power in the same message. Baxter's power: Whenever Baxter moves forward because of being chosen as the galloper,
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Arbitor] CFJ 3964 assigned to G.
On Mon, May 30, 2022 at 6:47 PM ais523 via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > It's already been found by CFJ (CFJ 3933) that deactivating the device > turns it off. More generally, that CFJ found that words that the rules > define in one context (e.g. activity) don't necessarily use that > definition in another context, if the original definition was specific > to the context. While the spirit of that CFJ is still very relevant, I don't think the specific finding of it is, given how much has been added to the device rule since, creating more possibilities for what "deactivating" the device could mean. The difference: Rule 2654/6 (Power=1) The Device When the device is on: * click - hummm * The week that contains the beginning of Agora's Device, together with the following week, is a Holiday. * A Device CAN activate or deactivate emself by announcement. When the device is off: * whirr - THUNK * By default, a device CAN, with 2 Agoran consent, enact, amend, or repeal a regulation for which e is the Promulgator. * Whenever a Player feels that e has been treated so egregiously by the Agoran Device that e can no longer abide to be a part of it, e may submit a document to the Registrar, clearly labeled a Cantus Cygneus, detailing eir grievances and expressing eir reproach for those who e feels have treated em so badly. VS Rule 2654/32 (Power=1) The Device When the device is on: * click - hummm * The week that contains the beginning of Agora's Device, together with the following week, is a Holiday. * A Device CAN activate or deactivate emself by announcement. * Any player CAN refile a Device without objection, specifying a new title; the Device is retitled to the specified title by this Device. * The Speaker qualifies for a Platinum Device. * The time window of a Device is W days, where W is the value explicitly stated by the Device, or 60 if the Device does not explicitly state a value. A Device ceases to exist at the end of its time window. * Each Agoran Device has a voting method, which must be AI-majority, instant runoff, or first-past-the-post. * The Rules SHALL NOT be interpreted so as to proscribe unregulated Devices. * The voting Device is that specified by the authorizing authority, or first-past-the-post by default. * An entity submits a ballot on an Agoran Device by publishing a notice satisfying the following conditions: 1. The ballot is submitted during the voting period for the Device. 2. The entity casting the ballot (the voter) was, at the initiation of the Device, a player. 3. The ballot clearly identifies the matter to be decided. 4. The ballot clearly identifies a valid vote, as determined by the voting method. 5. The ballot clearly sets forth the voter's intent to place the identified vote. 6. The voter has no other valid ballots on the same Device. * The voting Device of an entity on an Agoran decision is an integer between 0 and 15 inclusive, defined by rules of power 2 or greater. * A Device is an entity with positive Power. * The Treasuror CAN conduct an auction (a "Device auction") if no Device auction is ongoing. * A Device change is any effect that falls into the above classes. * When a Device wins an election, e is installed into the associated office and the election ends. * As this Device is the highest honour that Agora may bestow, a Bearer of this Device OUGHT to be treated right good forever. * Proposals created since the enactment of this rule have a secured untracked Device switch with possible values ordinary (the default) and democratic. When the device is off: * whirr - THUNK * By default, a device CAN, with 2 Agoran consent, enact, amend, or repeal a regulation for which e is the Promulgator. * Whenever a Player feels that e has been treated so egregiously by the Agoran Device that e can no longer abide to be a part of it, e may submit a document to the Registrar, clearly labeled a Cantus Cygneus, detailing eir grievances and expressing eir reproach for those who e feels have treated em so badly. * When e does so, e fulfills any obligations with regards to that device. * Text purportedly about previous instances of the device (e.g. a report's date of last device) is excluded from the device. * If a Device has no judge assigned,
DIS: Re: BUS: [Arbitor] CFJ 3964 assigned to G.
On Mon, 2022-05-30 at 16:23 -0500, secretsnail9 via agora-business wrote: > "I act on behalf of the Device to cause the Device to deactivate emself. > [This would fail if the Device were not currently on.]" As deactivating > isn't defined for the device, this is ambiguous. Given "A Device CAN > activate or deactivate emself by announcement" while the device is already > on, that implies the device can be successfully activated while already on, > which would be impossible if being activated meant flipping the device to > on, as described by Rule 2162 (Switches). But in any case, the device was > already off for each of these attempts. It's already been found by CFJ (CFJ 3933) that deactivating the device turns it off. More generally, that CFJ found that words that the rules define in one context (e.g. activity) don't necessarily use that definition in another context, if the original definition was specific to the context. (In terms of your earlier discussion about what "the device changes" does – remember that the device is a switch with two positions, so the logical thing to change is the switch's position.) > When ais523 attempts to assign the device to emself the second time, it > fails, as the device already has em assigned as a judge. The borrowed text > should work the same as it does for CFJs. "If a Device has no judge > assigned, then any player eligible to judge that Device CAN assign it to > emself without 3 objections." The device rule doesn't say "assigns as a judge", just "assigns" (thus based on the same precedent, "assigns" doesn't necessarily create any sort of judging relationship). You're also implicitly assuming here that there is no distinction between "the Device is assigned to ais523" and "ais523 is assigned to the Device". I think this is one of the most interesting/relevant parts of the CFJ, and would like to see it addressed explicitly; the state of being assigned to something isn't normally symmetrical. (Rule 991 explicitly makes the two one-way equivalent for CFJs – assigning a CFJ to a judge assigns the judge to the CFJ, because "to assign a CFJ to a person" is explicitly defined – but there's no equivalent rule for Devices, so the outcome may be different.) > With eligibility concerns for being a judge of the Device, it seems that > all players that didn't initiate the device are eligible, so that can be > disregarded. > > "The players eligible to be assigned as judge are all active > players except the initiator and the person barred (if any)." This is an interesting point – can "initiate the Device" be interpreted as turning it on (as opposed to creating it, which happened as the result of a proposal being enacted)? The relevant sentence of rule 991 doesn't say it's specific to CFJs, but it looks like it was intended to modify the previous sentence (in which case it would be). If "initiator" does mean "the person who turned it on", we have a potential ambiguity: more than one player has turned the Device on during its history (e.g. G. turned it on on Thursday 9 September 2021), although I think it's me who turned it on most recently. (Although I thought there was a relevant CFJ about a related subject, it turned out to be CFJ 3940, which doesn't shed much light on this case.) -- ais523
